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{{irci|vensa|selkik: (ta'a) what do you make of the following: '''so'o gerku cu te skari fi lo xunre fe lo se skari be lo crino bei lonei'''?}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|um well my first thought is "i'm gonna have to look up the places of skari" so uh, brb?}} | |||
{{irci|valsi|skari {{=}} x1 is/appears to be of color/hue x2 as perceived/seen by x3 under conditions x4.}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|hmm<br/>several dogs see a red thing as being the color of a green thing.. now "nei" is doing to my brain what "nei" does}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|I was hoping it points to '''so'o gerku'''. no?}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|o so you can use "lo nei" like "lo go'i"? i don't know i'd ever thought of that<br/>it makes sense}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|I was going for: some dogs have red-green color blindness}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|in that case i think you can as well use "vo'a" tho}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|i.e. some dogs see red things in the same way as they see green things}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|yup that made sense to me}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|I think '''vo'a''' would have pointed to the x1 of '''lo se skari be lo crino}}''' | |||
{{irci|selckiku|i'm never sure about vo'a, honestly, but i don't think so, because that's not an embedded bridi just a complex sumti}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|I think '''vo'a''' works with embedded sumti too}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|ok.. that does sound like a useful way for it to work<br/>honestly there was this huge fight about it years ago & so i put '''vo'a''' into my mental "don't bother; too contentious" bin :D}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|lo xruti be vo'a {{=}}> the "returner"<br/>yeah I heard about the fight}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|but "nei" goes to the base bridi of the jufra?<br/>you're trying to ask me, but you seem to know more about these cmavo than i do :D}} | |||
{{irci|valsi|nei {{=}} pro-bridi: repeats the current bridi.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|dunno}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|it would make sense w/how it rhymes with "dei"}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|I'm not THAT sure}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|My understanding is "la .bainon. goi ko'a since" means "Bainon, also known as ko'a (as of now), is a snake"}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|Teapot, sounds right}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|Okay, awesome. Thanks!}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/cll/7/6/<br/>going by ex6.14 it looks to always poin to the outermost bridi}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|Teapot, it assigns ko'a<-->bainon for the foreseeable future, until something else is assigned to ko'a basically... which you basically shouldn't do, you should just pull another pro-sumti out of the bag, there's ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a fo'e fo'i fo'o fo'u}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|Does that assignment hold for other people or just yourself?}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|and you could be like fo'i xi re ci (fo'i subscript 23) to make as many as you want, literally an infinite number :D}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|Like, if I assign something to ko'a, can someone else use it?}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|Teapot, yup}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|Okay, cool.}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|it just holds for the present conversation<br/>"ko'a" has meant a lot of things in the past<br/>right now in this conversation it's bainon<br/>ko'a since}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|Yeah}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|as for '''vo'a''' the CLL doesnt seem to discuss its use within '''be''' -> another point for the BPFK}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|Thanks again}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|who's ko'a, btw? is there a story about ko'a?<br/>vensa, yeah, i'd really like some clarity on '''vo'a'''! it seems like maybe other people are more sure about it than i am, maybe i missed the bus on it}} | |||
{{irci|Teapot|Bainon is Bino, my pet snake.}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|.ua<br/>do kurji ko'a}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|The way I understand it, it's always the "shortest"-scope link<br/>if you want longer scopes you have '''nei''' '''no'a''' and '''go'i}}''' | |||
{{irci|Teapot|go'i<br/>.ui}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|i don't even know '''no'a}}''' | |||
{{irci|valsi|no'a {{=}} pro-bridi: repeats the bridi in which this one is embedded.}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|The last chapter of L4B is the best treatment of it so far.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|mi ba klama ca lonu do no'a<br/>broca: ie}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|The thing is that people disagree about vo'a and what would be the most useful interpretation.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|that chapter seems to suggest that the argument revolves around the ones who didnt want to change the def<br/>and the new and right def being "short scope"}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|In fact, vo'a is the subject of the only serious academic linguistics paper written about Lojban.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|I dont understand what would be wrong with defining it short-scope?}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|certainly if "lo nei" "lo se nei" etc are long-scope that seems to serve that role}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|.ie<br/>broca: link to the paper?}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|vensa: because long-scope is useful too. And matrix clauses are special in natural languages (and sometimes in Lojban too)}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|broca: but cant you use '''lo nei, lo se nei, etc''' for those cases?}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|vensa: http://www.unish.org/unish/DOWN/PDF/Nick_Nicholas(133~167).pdf}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|what are "matrix clauses"}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|Top-level bridi, roughly.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|sh*t thats a long articla :)<br/>broca: ok, so again, why not settle with '''lo nei''' for "top-level-bridi" references?}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|If so, it would have to be '''le nei''' for bound terms.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|you mean LE vs LO?<br/>sure I can live with that :)<br/>what do you refer to as "bound terms"?}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|Sumti that we already know what entities they refer to.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|oh ok<br/>so yeah .ie<br/>so we're all for '''vo'a''' being short-scope then?}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|Think of the difference between “He killed himself” and “He killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that ...”}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|how would those two look in lojban?}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|I don't know. Isn't usage more in favour of long-scope?}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|fuck usage<br/>.u'u<br/>since when does usage decide}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|'''le prenu cu catra le nei''' vs. '''le prenu cu catra lo nei}}''' | |||
{{irci|vensa|hmmmm<br/>cool<br/>so the latter is a recursion}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|woooooow pierre just said on the list "sumyma'o"}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|cuz it always introduces new information?}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|In my understanding, yes. I might be wrong.}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|i feel like i've been waiting for that lujyjvo forever}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|Usage decides, except when usage is wrong. :-)}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|valsi sumyma'o}} | |||
{{irci|valsi|no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/sumyma%27o}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|selkik: whats it mean?}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|pro-sumti<br/>sumti+cmavo}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|broca: I think the decision was that usage shouldnt decidce}} | |||
{{irci|selckiku|pro-sumti is such a weird chimerical word}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|yeah<br/>cool}} | |||
{{irci|Broca|I must not have been in on that decision, then.}} | |||
{{irci|vensa|well thats another issue}} | |||
Latest revision as of 10:29, 25 December 2014
vensa | selkik: (ta'a) what do you make of the following: so'o gerku cu te skari fi lo xunre fe lo se skari be lo crino bei lonei? |
selckiku | um well my first thought is "i'm gonna have to look up the places of skari" so uh, brb? |
valsi | skari = x1 is/appears to be of color/hue x2 as perceived/seen by x3 under conditions x4. |
selckiku | hmm several dogs see a red thing as being the color of a green thing.. now "nei" is doing to my brain what "nei" does |
vensa | I was hoping it points to so'o gerku. no? |
selckiku | o so you can use "lo nei" like "lo go'i"? i don't know i'd ever thought of that it makes sense |
vensa | I was going for: some dogs have red-green color blindness |
selckiku | in that case i think you can as well use "vo'a" tho |
vensa | i.e. some dogs see red things in the same way as they see green things |
selckiku | yup that made sense to me |
vensa | I think vo'a would have pointed to the x1 of lo se skari be lo crino |
selckiku | i'm never sure about vo'a, honestly, but i don't think so, because that's not an embedded bridi just a complex sumti |
vensa | I think vo'a works with embedded sumti too |
selckiku | ok.. that does sound like a useful way for it to work honestly there was this huge fight about it years ago & so i put vo'a into my mental "don't bother; too contentious" bin :D |
vensa | lo xruti be vo'a => the "returner" yeah I heard about the fight |
selckiku | but "nei" goes to the base bridi of the jufra? you're trying to ask me, but you seem to know more about these cmavo than i do :D |
valsi | nei = pro-bridi: repeats the current bridi. |
vensa | dunno |
selckiku | it would make sense w/how it rhymes with "dei" |
vensa | I'm not THAT sure |
Teapot | My understanding is "la .bainon. goi ko'a since" means "Bainon, also known as ko'a (as of now), is a snake" |
selckiku | Teapot, sounds right |
Teapot | Okay, awesome. Thanks! |
vensa | http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/cll/7/6/ going by ex6.14 it looks to always poin to the outermost bridi |
selckiku | Teapot, it assigns ko'a<-->bainon for the foreseeable future, until something else is assigned to ko'a basically... which you basically shouldn't do, you should just pull another pro-sumti out of the bag, there's ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a fo'e fo'i fo'o fo'u |
Teapot | Does that assignment hold for other people or just yourself? |
selckiku | and you could be like fo'i xi re ci (fo'i subscript 23) to make as many as you want, literally an infinite number :D |
Teapot | Like, if I assign something to ko'a, can someone else use it? |
selckiku | Teapot, yup |
Teapot | Okay, cool. |
selckiku | it just holds for the present conversation "ko'a" has meant a lot of things in the past right now in this conversation it's bainon ko'a since |
Teapot | Yeah |
vensa | as for vo'a the CLL doesnt seem to discuss its use within be -> another point for the BPFK |
Teapot | Thanks again |
selckiku | who's ko'a, btw? is there a story about ko'a? vensa, yeah, i'd really like some clarity on vo'a! it seems like maybe other people are more sure about it than i am, maybe i missed the bus on it |
Teapot | Bainon is Bino, my pet snake. |
selckiku | .ua do kurji ko'a |
vensa | The way I understand it, it's always the "shortest"-scope link if you want longer scopes you have nei no'a and go'i |
Teapot | go'i .ui |
selckiku | i don't even know no'a |
valsi | no'a = pro-bridi: repeats the bridi in which this one is embedded. |
Broca | The last chapter of L4B is the best treatment of it so far. |
vensa | mi ba klama ca lonu do no'a broca: ie |
Broca | The thing is that people disagree about vo'a and what would be the most useful interpretation. |
vensa | that chapter seems to suggest that the argument revolves around the ones who didnt want to change the def and the new and right def being "short scope" |
Broca | In fact, vo'a is the subject of the only serious academic linguistics paper written about Lojban. |
vensa | I dont understand what would be wrong with defining it short-scope? |
selckiku | certainly if "lo nei" "lo se nei" etc are long-scope that seems to serve that role |
vensa | .ie broca: link to the paper? |
Broca | vensa: because long-scope is useful too. And matrix clauses are special in natural languages (and sometimes in Lojban too) |
vensa | broca: but cant you use lo nei, lo se nei, etc for those cases? |
Broca | vensa: http://www.unish.org/unish/DOWN/PDF/Nick_Nicholas(133~167).pdf |
vensa | what are "matrix clauses" |
Broca | Top-level bridi, roughly. |
vensa | sh*t thats a long articla :) broca: ok, so again, why not settle with lo nei for "top-level-bridi" references? |
Broca | If so, it would have to be le nei for bound terms. |
vensa | you mean LE vs LO? sure I can live with that :) what do you refer to as "bound terms"? |
Broca | Sumti that we already know what entities they refer to. |
vensa | oh ok so yeah .ie so we're all for vo'a being short-scope then? |
Broca | Think of the difference between “He killed himself” and “He killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that ...” |
vensa | how would those two look in lojban? |
Broca | I don't know. Isn't usage more in favour of long-scope? |
vensa | fuck usage .u'u since when does usage decide |
Broca | le prenu cu catra le nei vs. le prenu cu catra lo nei |
vensa | hmmmm cool so the latter is a recursion |
selckiku | woooooow pierre just said on the list "sumyma'o" |
vensa | cuz it always introduces new information? |
Broca | In my understanding, yes. I might be wrong. |
selckiku | i feel like i've been waiting for that lujyjvo forever |
Broca | Usage decides, except when usage is wrong. :-) |
vensa | valsi sumyma'o |
valsi | no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/sumyma%27o |
vensa | selkik: whats it mean? |
selckiku | pro-sumti sumti+cmavo |
vensa | broca: I think the decision was that usage shouldnt decidce |
selckiku | pro-sumti is such a weird chimerical word |
vensa | yeah cool |
Broca | I must not have been in on that decision, then. |
vensa | well thats another issue |