the Definition of '''vo'a'''

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vensa selkik: (ta'a) what do you make of the following: so'o gerku cu te skari fi lo xunre fe lo se skari be lo crino bei lonei?
selckiku um well my first thought is "i'm gonna have to look up the places of skari" so uh, brb?
valsi skari = x1 is/appears to be of color/hue x2 as perceived/seen by x3 under conditions x4.
selckiku hmm
several dogs see a red thing as being the color of a green thing.. now "nei" is doing to my brain what "nei" does
vensa I was hoping it points to so'o gerku. no?
selckiku o so you can use "lo nei" like "lo go'i"? i don't know i'd ever thought of that
it makes sense
vensa I was going for: some dogs have red-green color blindness
selckiku in that case i think you can as well use "vo'a" tho
vensa i.e. some dogs see red things in the same way as they see green things
selckiku yup that made sense to me
vensa I think vo'a would have pointed to the x1 of lo se skari be lo crino

selckiku i'm never sure about vo'a, honestly, but i don't think so, because that's not an embedded bridi just a complex sumti
vensa I think vo'a works with embedded sumti too
selckiku ok.. that does sound like a useful way for it to work
honestly there was this huge fight about it years ago & so i put vo'a into my mental "don't bother; too contentious" bin :D
vensa lo xruti be vo'a => the "returner"
yeah I heard about the fight
selckiku but "nei" goes to the base bridi of the jufra?
you're trying to ask me, but you seem to know more about these cmavo than i do :D
valsi nei = pro-bridi: repeats the current bridi.
vensa dunno
selckiku it would make sense w/how it rhymes with "dei"
vensa I'm not THAT sure
Teapot My understanding is "la .bainon. goi ko'a since" means "Bainon, also known as ko'a (as of now), is a snake"
selckiku Teapot, sounds right
Teapot Okay, awesome. Thanks!
going by ex6.14 it looks to always poin to the outermost bridi
selckiku Teapot, it assigns ko'a<-->bainon for the foreseeable future, until something else is assigned to ko'a basically... which you basically shouldn't do, you should just pull another pro-sumti out of the bag, there's ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a fo'e fo'i fo'o fo'u
Teapot Does that assignment hold for other people or just yourself?
selckiku and you could be like fo'i xi re ci (fo'i subscript 23) to make as many as you want, literally an infinite number :D
Teapot Like, if I assign something to ko'a, can someone else use it?
selckiku Teapot, yup
Teapot Okay, cool.
selckiku it just holds for the present conversation
"ko'a" has meant a lot of things in the past
right now in this conversation it's bainon
ko'a since
Teapot Yeah
vensa as for vo'a the CLL doesnt seem to discuss its use within be -> another point for the BPFK
Teapot Thanks again
selckiku who's ko'a, btw? is there a story about ko'a?
vensa, yeah, i'd really like some clarity on vo'a! it seems like maybe other people are more sure about it than i am, maybe i missed the bus on it
Teapot Bainon is Bino, my pet snake.
selckiku .ua
do kurji ko'a
vensa The way I understand it, it's always the "shortest"-scope link
if you want longer scopes you have nei no'a and go'i

Teapot go'i
selckiku i don't even know no'a

valsi no'a = pro-bridi: repeats the bridi in which this one is embedded.
Broca The last chapter of L4B is the best treatment of it so far.
vensa mi ba klama ca lonu do no'a
broca: ie
Broca The thing is that people disagree about vo'a and what would be the most useful interpretation.
vensa that chapter seems to suggest that the argument revolves around the ones who didnt want to change the def
and the new and right def being "short scope"
Broca In fact, vo'a is the subject of the only serious academic linguistics paper written about Lojban.
vensa I dont understand what would be wrong with defining it short-scope?
selckiku certainly if "lo nei" "lo se nei" etc are long-scope that seems to serve that role
vensa .ie
broca: link to the paper?
Broca vensa: because long-scope is useful too. And matrix clauses are special in natural languages (and sometimes in Lojban too)
vensa broca: but cant you use lo nei, lo se nei, etc for those cases?
Broca vensa:
vensa what are "matrix clauses"
Broca Top-level bridi, roughly.
vensa sh*t thats a long articla :)
broca: ok, so again, why not settle with lo nei for "top-level-bridi" references?
Broca If so, it would have to be le nei for bound terms.
vensa you mean LE vs LO?
sure I can live with that :)
what do you refer to as "bound terms"?
Broca Sumti that we already know what entities they refer to.
vensa oh ok
so yeah .ie
so we're all for vo'a being short-scope then?
Broca Think of the difference between “He killed himself” and “He killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that ...”
vensa how would those two look in lojban?
Broca I don't know. Isn't usage more in favour of long-scope?
vensa fuck usage
since when does usage decide
Broca le prenu cu catra le nei vs. le prenu cu catra lo nei

vensa hmmmm
so the latter is a recursion
selckiku woooooow pierre just said on the list "sumyma'o"
vensa cuz it always introduces new information?
Broca In my understanding, yes. I might be wrong.
selckiku i feel like i've been waiting for that lujyjvo forever
Broca Usage decides, except when usage is wrong. :-)
vensa valsi sumyma'o
valsi no results.
vensa selkik: whats it mean?
selckiku pro-sumti
vensa broca: I think the decision was that usage shouldnt decidce
selckiku pro-sumti is such a weird chimerical word
vensa yeah
Broca I must not have been in on that decision, then.
vensa well thats another issue