the Definition of '''vo'a'''

vensa

selkik: (ta'a) what do you make of the following: so'o gerku cu te skari fi lo xunre fe lo se skari be lo crino bei lonei?

selckiku

um well my first thought is "i'm gonna have to look up the places of skari" so uh, brb?

valsi

skari = x1 is/appears to be of color/hue x2 as perceived/seen by x3 under conditions x4.

selckiku

hmm several dogs see a red thing as being the color of a green thing.. now "nei" is doing to my brain what "nei" does

vensa

I was hoping it points to so'o gerku. no?

selckiku

o so you can use "lo nei" like "lo go'i"? i don't know i'd ever thought of that it makes sense

vensa

I was going for: some dogs have red-green color blindness

selckiku

in that case i think you can as well use "vo'a" tho

vensa

i.e. some dogs see red things in the same way as they see green things

selckiku

yup that made sense to me

vensa

I think vo'a would have pointed to the x1 of lo se skari be lo crino

selckiku

i'm never sure about vo'a, honestly, but i don't think so, because that's not an embedded bridi just a complex sumti

vensa

I think vo'a works with embedded sumti too

selckiku

ok.. that does sound like a useful way for it to work honestly there was this huge fight about it years ago & so i put vo'a into my mental "don't bother; too contentious" bin :D

vensa

lo xruti be vo'a => the "returner" yeah I heard about the fight

selckiku

but "nei" goes to the base bridi of the jufra? you're trying to ask me, but you seem to know more about these cmavo than i do :D

valsi

nei = pro-bridi: repeats the current bridi.

vensa

dunno

selckiku

it would make sense w/how it rhymes with "dei"

vensa

I'm not THAT sure

Teapot

My understanding is "la .bainon. goi ko'a since" means "Bainon, also known as ko'a (as of now), is a snake"

selckiku

Teapot, sounds right

Teapot

Okay, awesome. Thanks!

vensa

http://mw.lojban.org/extensions/cll/7/6/ going by ex6.14 it looks to always poin to the outermost bridi

selckiku

Teapot, it assigns ko'a<-->bainon for the foreseeable future, until something else is assigned to ko'a basically... which you basically shouldn't do, you should just pull another pro-sumti out of the bag, there's ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u fo'a fo'e fo'i fo'o fo'u

Teapot

Does that assignment hold for other people or just yourself?

selckiku

and you could be like fo'i xi re ci (fo'i subscript 23) to make as many as you want, literally an infinite number :D

Teapot

Like, if I assign something to ko'a, can someone else use it?

selckiku

Teapot, yup

Teapot

Okay, cool.

selckiku

it just holds for the present conversation "ko'a" has meant a lot of things in the past right now in this conversation it's bainon ko'a since

Teapot

Yeah

vensa

as for vo'a the CLL doesnt seem to discuss its use within be -> another point for the BPFK

Teapot

Thanks again

selckiku

who's ko'a, btw? is there a story about ko'a? vensa, yeah, i'd really like some clarity on vo'a! it seems like maybe other people are more sure about it than i am, maybe i missed the bus on it

Teapot

Bainon is Bino, my pet snake.

selckiku

.ua do kurji ko'a

vensa

The way I understand it, it's always the "shortest"-scope link if you want longer scopes you have nei no'a and go'i

Teapot

go'i .ui

selckiku

i don't even know no'a

valsi

no'a = pro-bridi: repeats the bridi in which this one is embedded.

Broca

The last chapter of L4B is the best treatment of it so far.

vensa

mi ba klama ca lonu do no'a broca: ie

Broca

The thing is that people disagree about vo'a and what would be the most useful interpretation.

vensa

that chapter seems to suggest that the argument revolves around the ones who didnt want to change the def and the new and right def being "short scope"

Broca

In fact, vo'a is the subject of the only serious academic linguistics paper written about Lojban.

vensa

I dont understand what would be wrong with defining it short-scope?

selckiku

certainly if "lo nei" "lo se nei" etc are long-scope that seems to serve that role

vensa

.ie broca: link to the paper?

Broca

vensa: because long-scope is useful too. And matrix clauses are special in natural languages (and sometimes in Lojban too)

vensa

broca: but cant you use lo nei, lo se nei, etc for those cases?

Broca

vensa: http://www.unish.org/unish/DOWN/PDF/Nick_Nicholas(133~167).pdf

vensa

what are "matrix clauses"

Broca

Top-level bridi, roughly.

vensa

sh*t thats a long articla :) broca: ok, so again, why not settle with lo nei for "top-level-bridi" references?

Broca

If so, it would have to be le nei for bound terms.

vensa

you mean LE vs LO? sure I can live with that :) what do you refer to as "bound terms"?

Broca

Sumti that we already know what entities they refer to.

vensa

oh ok so yeah .ie so we're all for vo'a being short-scope then?

Broca

Think of the difference between “He killed himself” and “He killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that killed some person(s) that ...”

vensa

how would those two look in lojban?

Broca

I don't know. Isn't usage more in favour of long-scope?

vensa

fuck usage .u'u since when does usage decide

Broca

le prenu cu catra le nei vs. le prenu cu catra lo nei

vensa

hmmmm cool so the latter is a recursion

selckiku

woooooow pierre just said on the list "sumyma'o"

vensa

cuz it always introduces new information?

Broca

In my understanding, yes. I might be wrong.

selckiku

i feel like i've been waiting for that lujyjvo forever

Broca

Usage decides, except when usage is wrong. :-)

vensa

valsi sumyma'o

valsi

no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/sumyma%27o

vensa

selkik: whats it mean?

selckiku

pro-sumti sumti+cmavo

vensa

broca: I think the decision was that usage shouldnt decidce

selckiku

pro-sumti is such a weird chimerical word

vensa

yeah cool

Broca

I must not have been in on that decision, then.

vensa

well thats another issue