me lu ju'i lobypli li'u 12 moi

From Lojban
Revision as of 07:06, 9 July 2014 by Gleki (talk | contribs) (Created page with "<pre> Copyright, 1990, 1991, by the Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA Phone (703) 385-0273 All rights reserved. Permis...")
(diff) ← Older revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Copyright, 1990, 1991, by the Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane,
Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA Phone (703) 385-0273

All rights reserved.  Permission to copy granted subject to your
verification that this is the latest version of this document, that your
distribution be for the promotion of Lojban, that there is no charge for
the product, and that this copyright notice is included intact in the

						  Number 12 - May 1990
				   Copyright 1990,  The	Logical	Language Group,	Inc.
				   2904	Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031 USA	(703)385-0273

					      LogFest 90 - 15-18 Jun 1990

			     Details Inside.  Also:  Negation, Indicators, News, and more.

     Ju'i Lobypli (JL) is the quarterly	journal	of The Logical Language	Group, Inc., known in these pages as la
lojbangirz.  la	lojbangirz. is a non-profit organization formed	for the	purpose	of completing and spreading the	logical
human language "Lojban".   la lojbangirz. is a non-profit organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the U.S. Internal
Revenue	Code.  Your donations (not contributions to your voluntary balance) are	tax-deductible on U.S. and most	state
income taxes.  Donors are notified at the end of each year of their total deductible donations.	 We note for all po-
tential	donors that our	bylaws require us to spend no more than	30% of our receipts on administrative expenses,	and that
you are	welcome	to make	you gifts conditional upon our meeting this requirement.
     Press run for this	issue of Ju'i Lobypli: 350.  We	now have over 660 people on our	active mailing list.

						   Your	Mailing	Label

Your mailing label reports your	current	mailing	status,	and your current voluntary balance including this issue.  Please
notify us if you wish to be in a different mailing code	category.  Balances reflect contributions received thru	21 May
1990.  Mailing codes (and approximate annual balance needs) are	defined	as follows:

Level B	- Product Announcements	Only		Level R	- This is a Review Copy	for Publications
Level 0	- le lojbo karni only -	$5 balance requested
Level 1	- le lojbo karni and Ju'i Lobypli - $15	balance	requested
Level 2	- Level	1 materials and	baselined/final	products - $20 balance requested
Level 3	- Level	2 materials and	lesson materials as developed -	$50 balance or more

If your	level number has an '*'	by it, we need to hear from you.  This indicates that we have had no contact from you in
over a year, and either	have not paid for any materials, or have a negative balance in excess of $25.00.  If we	have not
heard from you before late July	(JL13/LK13), we	will have to lower you to 'Level 0' at that time.  We're perfectly
willing	to send	JL to people who cannot	pay, as	long as	we get feedback	indicating that	you are	using the materials.

						 Contents of This Issue

     This issue	is coming out only a month after the last, as we try to	catch up on our	tardy publication from last
year.  Thus, no	Lojban text this issue,	except for incidental examples.
     The issue is dominated by two long	papers,	describing the proposed	modifications for negation and
indicators/attitudinals.  These	are comprehensive, even	more so	than the textbook discussion will be.  The negation
paper may be tough reading, but	has lots of examples.  The attitudinal paper is	lacking	in usage examples primarily

because	of time, and the lack of a comparable system in	English.  The two papers are bound separately from the rest of
the issue; many	'level 3' students will	wish to	bind these papers with their draft textbook materials.
     Our regular news section includes information about LogFest 90, and we also present several lesser	proposals to be
considered and decided at LogFest.  We want your opinion on these.
     Please forgive any	substandard editing, especially	odd formats.  We had a hard disk failure the day this was to go
to the printer,	and this represents an intricate but hurried reconstruction.

						   Table of Contents

  LogFest Plans						       --3
  In Memoriam -	Faith Rich and Preston Maxwell		       --5
  Finances						       --6
  Research and Development				       --6
  Growth and Publicity					       --9
  Education						      --10
  International	News - Athelstan's Travel Plans		      --10
  Products and Policy					      --11
  News About the Institute				      --14
A Brief	Introduction to	Predicates and Place Structures, by Athelstan --15
Proposals to be	Decided	at LogFest			      --16
Letters, Comments, and Responses			      --27
Enclosures - Proposed Revision of Attitudinals and Indicators, On Lojban Negation, Some	More Proposed Logos, Map to
  LogFest 90

						Computer Net Information

If you have access to Usenet/UUCP/Internet, you	can send messages and text files (including things for JL publication)
to Bob at:

You can	join the Lojban	news-group by sending your mailing address to:

and traffic to the news-group can be sent to:

     The "" trailer on the above	address	is likely to change soon.  We'll notify	you by e-mail when we have firm
information, and provide updated information here next issue.  There will be some transition period after the change,
during which this address will still work.
     Please keep us informed if	your network mailing address changes.

Compuserve subscribers can also	participate.  Precede any of the above addresses with INTERNET:	and use	your normal
Compuserve mail	facility (its possible that you	can send only to addresses in the '@' format).	Usenet/Internet	people
can send to Compuserve addresses by changing the comma in the Compuserve address to a period:

     Whether you wish to participate in	the news-group or not, it is useful for	us to know your	Compuserve address.  For
example, any decision for la lojbangirz. to obtain a Compuserve	account	will be	based on a need	to serve a goodly number
of you that want to exchange information.


  We've	been requested to more explicitly identify people   on 'lojban-list', so that others who are thinking "maybe"
who are	referred to by initials	in JL, and will	regularly   will more likely consider going, with the knowledge	of re-
do so in this spot, immediately	before the news	section.    duced transportation costs.
Note that some people choose to	write under a pseudonym
which is initial-like, as jyjym. did last issue	- we prefer   What will	be going on at LogFest?	 We will have two major
to print names of our correspondents, but will consider	    themes this	time:
allowing a pseudonym if	the author requests privacy and	we     - How can we help more people learn Lojban easier?
feel the writing is important enough to	publish.  Note that    - What short term applications for Lojban are worth
'Athelstan' is that person's real name,	used in	his public  highest priority?
life, and is not a pseudonym.
							      We also will have	the goal, by the end of	the weekend, of
  'pc' - Dr. John Parks-Clifford, Professor of Logic and    deciding on	several	last minute proposals regarding	the
Philosophy at the University of	Missouri - St. Louis and    language and declaring a conditional or unconditional
Vice-President of la lojbangirz.; he prefers to	be	    baseline (freeze) on the grammar.
addressed as 'pc'.  As an incidental news item,	pc is
getting	married	on 18 May, and his new bride will be accom- Now	for details.
panying	him when he comes to LogFest in	June.
  'Bob', 'lojbab' - Bob	LeChevalier - President	of la	      There will be several things going on simultaneously.
lojbangirz., and editor	of Ju'i	Lobypli	and le lojbo karni.   -	Some main track	discussions, generally related to the
  'JCB', 'Jim Brown'- Dr. James	Cooke Brown, inventor of    themes above, which	Bob will probably be leading or	helping
the language, and founder of the Loglan	project.	    out	with;
  'The Institute' - The	Loglan Institute, Inc.,	JCB's	      -	1 or 2 computer	rooms, with 2-3	MS-DOS machines, Art
organization for spreading his version of Loglan.	    Wieners' UNIX machine, and whatever	else people bring.  Art
							    and	others will usually be in there	demonstrating existing
			   News				    software, and working on new software including the	parser.
		       LogFest Plans			    There will be a little bit of computer talk	on the main
							    track, but we will generally be trying to make it so non-
  LogFest 90 will be held from Friday thru Monday the	    computer types can understand what is going	on.
weekend	of 15-18 June 1990; most of the	planned	activities    -	Athelstan, and possibly	others,	will be	helping	with
will be	within the weekend proper.  The	annual meeting of   new	Lojbanists.  Athelstan will give mini-lessons at times
the Logical Language Group, Inc. is set	for Sunday morning, scheduled below (if	there are people interested then), but
the 17th, by our bylaws, and is	the one	absolutely fixed    he will also be available impromptu	for mini-lessons,
item for the gathering.	 All other dates and times	    explanations of grammar points, and	demonstration of the
discussed below	are subject to change depending	on what	    flash card technique.
attendees want to do and/or talk about.	 This meeting is      -	On occasion throughout the weekend we'll hold short
for YOU, so make sure we know what is important	to you.	    sessions of	all-Lojban conversation	- typically a half hour
Especially let us know if you can only come for	part of	the or less so that non-speakers don't get bored, or
weekend, and have a particular topic you want to talk	    frustrated.	 These sessions	will probably occur in between
about; we'll try to move things	around to fit you in.	    main discussions.
  From the feedback we've been getting,	we're expecting
more people at LogFest this year than in previous years.
For the	benefit	of our planning, please	let us know if you
are coming (or if you 'might be' coming	- we don't need
ironclad commitments).	There's	no penalty for not doing so
- we simply have a smoother, better planned gathering if
you do.
  We have plenty of sleeping space, especially for those
with sleeping bags and/or tents.  Families are welcome,
provided that they have	sleeping bags too (there are motels
within a couple	of miles, but the DC area isn't	cheap);	we
also need financial help if we're going	to feed	families.
  Also,	if your	coming depends on finding transportation to
Washington DC, let us know.  There may be someone else
coming from the	same place or direction	that you can
rideshare with.	 This is especially likely for the
Northeast corridor, from Boston	down to	Washington.  Be
sure to	specify	what dates you want to attend, the earliest
you can	leave home and the latest you can return home to
make ride-sharing feasible.  If	you have access	to the
computer network, you might also consider posting a notice


  Specific schedules as	they stand:			      everybody	in the world will be trying to convince	Bob and
							      Nora to switch from MS-DOS to UNIX; Good luck!)
			  Friday			    Saturday nite - Bob	will lead discussions about textbook
7PM - Athelstan	mini-lesson (about 1 hr.), if there are	      plans, dictionary	plans, and take	suggestions.  We'll
  people present who haven't been to one		      also talk	about the recent change	proposals to the
8PM - After the	mini-lesson (or	starting earlier if there     language.	 Non-controversial ones	will get a quick
  is none), there will be a discussion of Jim Yorke and	      decision;	the rest will be deferred for further discus-
  Celso	Grebogi's proposal (later in this issue) to have      sion on Sunday or	later -	all attendees have a vote.
  Lojban image languages using gismu based on single lan-
  guages to make them easier to	learn.	Side issues may				      Sunday
  include applications such as teaching	Lojban to kids
  (including using such	teaching to help them learn English Sunday morning is the la lojbangirz. business meeting.
  better), and other aspects of	making Lojban easier to	      Expect business-y	things.	 Most people tend to sleep in
  learn	for people than	it currently is.  Dr. Yorke will be   late on Sunday morning after two late nights, so we've
  at the session, but has schedule constraints that mean      put this at a low	ebb time to keep from boring people.
  that he can only attend early	in the weekend,	so the	      We hope to finish	the meeting by noon.  The agenda is not
  Friday night schedule	is relatively fixed.		      yet known.  Topics typically include finances, plans and
							      priorities.  All attendees are welcome to	participate
			 Saturday			      informally.
							    Sunday afternoon, we will discuss gismu list change
Saturday morning - additional discussion about teaching	and   proposals, hopefully briefly, and	make a group decision
  learning Lojban, including any leftover discussions from    on whether we are	ready to baseline the Lojban grammar.
  the night before.  Bob hopes to have new textbook lesson    If so, the language is DONE!!!!  Practically speaking,
  drafts for people to look at and comment on, so here's      expect a conditional baseline, possibly excluding	MEX,
  your chance to make a	difference before the book is	      and possibly waiting either for the parser or the
  finished.						      textbook to be completed or both,	before it becomes a
If there is interest, we will start side discussions at	      full freeze.  (More on this below, under R & D).
  that point on	how to organize	and lead a class when you   around 3PM?	- A final scheduled mini-lesson; this time an
  don't	know the language yourself.  Athelstan and John	      advanced lesson for people who have already had the basic
  Hodges will both be there, and both have done	this now.     mini-lesson.  This may continue into a longer tutorial,
  Eric Tiedemann will, we hope,	be there to report on the     if there is demand, but will otherwise last an hour.
  initial work by the New York City class.  We want to	    Sunday nite	and Monday will	be left	unscheduled for
  stimulate new	class efforts, even if only 2-3	people are    whatever comes up	- invariably something runs overtime.
  participating.  Athelstan is hoping to launch	2 classes,    Besides, many out-of-towners will	have left by then,
  one in Virginia and one in Maryland, at LogFest or	      though pc	and probably Art Wieners will still be here.
  immediately afterwards.  We are also considering	      pc and family plan to arrive on Wednesday	the 13th.  Art
  instituting a	weekly Lojban conversation session to start   usually comes for	a full week, but his dates are not yet
  with or shortly after	LogFest	(this may end up having	to    known.
  wait until fall - simply because Athelstan may be spread
  too thin.)
1PM - Another Lojban mini-lesson, if there is demand.
Saturday afternoon will	include	a discussion of	voice
  recognition, the Lojban parser, AI work and various other
  computer processing projects.	 Art Wieners will tell
  about	his fairly extensive efforts, including	word
  recognition and analysis, as well as Artificial Intelli-
  gence	applications for Lojban.  Unfortunately, Jeff
  Taylor, who has been leading the parser efforts, is
  having to drop out of	Lojban work for	a while, and won't
  be coming.  We will be looking for new parser	helpers	(C
  programming language,	preferably in an MS-DOS	environ-
  ment), and there may be technical side-discussions.  Eric
  Raymond, host	of 'lojban-list', our computer network
  mail-server, has been	working	on porting LogFlash to
  Unix,	and will talk about what he's done.  Nora and I
  will talk about planned new software and enhancements,
  and we'll accept proposals for others.  All software (and
  other	products) will be available for	demonstration,
  examination, and (of course) purchase.  (Oh, yes; and


Other activities will be dependent on demand:
Some have suggested a group effort to write or translate			    In Memoriam
  something, perhaps a short essay reporting on	LogFest.
  As a possibility, we have an ancient back burner project    We've recently heard of the deaths of two	noteworthy
  to update Jim	Carter's short story in	old Loglan to	    supporters of the language,	Faith Rich (Chicago, IL) and
  current Lojban, and a	similar	effort involving an old	    Preston Maxwell (Seattle, WA).  Our	sympathy goes to their
  story	by Bob Chassell.  These	are non-trivial	and will    families and friends, and we of the	Lojban community will
  not be finished in a weekend,	but are	easier than	    miss them.
  composing raw	text; people can get a good start and those   Faith Rich has been for the last several years the most
  who want to can continue on their own.  Carter's work, in prolific inventor of tanru and new words for the language.
  particular, will take	a fair amount of tanru and lujvo    While she did most of her work with	The Loglan Institute,
  re-making; he	used a lot of Institute	Loglan words that   she	also has assisted la lojbangirz., especially when we
  are based on no longer acceptable tanru.  In addition,    were attempting to baseline	the gismu list.	 Faith may have
  we've	found that the current gismu list has more	    devised over 3000 tanru and	lujvo as part of the Eaton
  expressive power than	earlier	lists, making some tanru    project, an	attempt	to provide comprehensive vocabulary
  simpler or even unnecessary.				    coverage for the most frequently used concepts in 4
There will be other side discussions as	people desire.	    European languages.	 A long-time supporter of the
  Speak	up now with your favorite topic.  Some		    international language movement, she was in	her late 70's
  possibilities	include	lujvo making, and good tanru for    when doing this work, and had expressed no hope of living
  various words, etc.  One topic we're not sure	how many    until the language reached fruition.  Yet, she was a
  are interested in is the making of le'avla borrowings;    fervent believer that Loglan/Lojban	was worthwhile and
  any decisions	on the algorithm have to be made before	the important work, and	provided hard effort and constant
  textbook session on the topic	is written.		    support over the years.
We will	be having Lojban conversation as mentioned above,     The community knows less of Preston Maxwell, who joined
  possibly with	on longer session towards the end (when	    us only a couple of	years ago.  However, Preston was one of
  more people feel comfortable with trying to say things)   the	first people to	try to learn Lojban on his own.
  if there is demand for it.  To keep costs down, we need   Preston was	a skilled translator with experience in	several
  people to bring their	own word lists,	etc., though we'll  non-Indo-European languages.  He was especially intrigued
  have inventory if needed.				    by Lojban's	attempt	to free	itself of European biases and
If you are thinking about ordering stuff, it saves us	    to support structures and concepts of non-Indo-European
  postage to give it to	you there and let you carry it	    tongues.  Some of his early	writings, Lojban versions of
  home.	 But we	need to	have a good number of people pay    non-Indo-European short tales, were	published in earlier JL
  for stuff there in order to do this.	We will	probably    issues; these were the first attempts at writing 'natural
  have no money	in the bank after LogFest to restock in-    Lojban', and the first writings by someone who had not
  ventory, except what we collect at the meeting.	    previously learned earlier versions	of Loglan.  Preston
							    also attempted to organize the Seattle community, though
Logistics:						    without success.  Hopefully, others	there will be inspired
  We generally put up a	good spread of food to keep people  to proceed in his stead.
from going hungry We're	asking for contributions of $5-15     These two	deaths remind us of our	mortality.  People are
per day	towards	costs (and preferably more, if you can	    always saying that they'll learn Lojban 'later', when they
help), but there is no mandatory admission charge.  If we   have 'more time', or when the language is 'done', or has
don't get enough volunteer cash	flow, this will	be the last 'practical use'.  Faith and	Preston	didn't wait till
year of	voluntary giving.  To pay for LogFest, we will	    'later', they made time for	Lojban,	and they found reasons
probably need more than	the $600 spent last year, depending why	working	on the language	now is worthwhile.  In their
on attendance, which we	expect to be double or more.  (That memory, we ask other Lojbanists to do the same.
$600 doesn't include all costs,	only those paid	by la
lojbangirz. - it averages out to about $30 per person,
including those	who only came for part of the weekend.)				     Finances
  As mentioned above, families are welcome if you bring
sleeping bags and tent or trailer.  We'll have at least	one   Should we	bore you by complaining	about finances again?
adult and one 13-year-old non-Lojbanist	here for the	    We have to.	 It wouldn't be	JL, otherwise.
weekend, so there will probably	be some	side activities	      The best I can say is that we are	paying our bills, or at
such as	sightseeing in DC or shopping at the malls, or	    least most of them.	 Our legal bills have to be paid off
whatever for disinterested spouses and kids.  Let us know   slowly because of our rule limiting	legal and other
if you're bring	extras along so	we can plan for	food, etc.  expenses to	30% of all expenses.  The side benefit of that
  We are close to DC's Metro system and	right off the	    rule is that the money reserved for	those legal bills is
freeway.  There	are detailed directions	and a map enclosed  the	only thing keeping our bank balance positive.
with this issue.  Of course, if	you have any questions,	      To keep us financially afloat, we've figuratively	'put
just ask.						    the	brakes on' spending by la lojbangirz.  We've spent
							    about $3300	this year as of	the publication	of this	issue,


only 3/4 of what we had	spent last year	by this	time.	    grammar.  When pc was in Washington, we didn't need	more
Unfortunately, our income is similarly lagging behind last  than an hour or two	to devise a new	approach; it will take
year's.	 In spite of over 50% more people, we're getting    only days to see if	that new approach works	in the grammar.
less money in.						      MEX is a complex problem,	but is easy to resolve.	 With
  The major drop has been in donations.	 In spite of our    negation and attitudinal indicators, half the battle is
501(c)(3) status, only a couple	of people have donated	    understanding the entire complexity	of the problem.	 Once
money to the organization above	and beyond balance	    the	goals were clear, the design was easy.	With MEX, the
contributions.	Thus we	are hurt more by the large number   goals have been understood for a long time;	the problem is
of you who aren't contributing.	 Remembering that we don't  merely one of design.
make any money on our publications, every non-payee has	to    Bob has had contact with Ivor Darreg, who	proposed a MEX-
be supported from donations.  The small	amount of money	we  like code called Numaudo about 30 years ago.  Anyone
make on	software doesn't cover the phone bills.		    familiar with this effort is encouraged to send comments to
  The price will eventually have to be paid.  We are going  us.
to be mounting a major drive to	add European Lojbanists	      le'avla -	The other remaining design issue is the	making
during Athelstan's trip	later this year.  Overseas postage  of le'avla borrowings from other languages.	 Unlike	the
is enormously expensive, and we	will not easily	support	    other design problems le'avla grammar and morphology are
these new Lojbanists.					    fully settled.  The	question is merely one of usage:
  The result is	that we	are likely to have to borrow money
to publish the textbook	and dictionary.	 We've worked hard
to get a good credit rating, and can probably get loans	of
the size we need, but interest costs would seriously crimp
our future budget.  Loans also mean that we'll have to
charge more for	the books, perhaps as much as $5 to $10
more than we'd like.
  To put it simply, we have to find between $4000 and $6000
to publish each	book (more likely the latter figure).  If
every JL subscriber buys 1 copy, this probably means a $20
price tag each,	which will probably hurt sales,	especially
among non-US Lojbanists.
  This also means that we won't	be able	to publish the
dictionary until we've sold a lot of textbooks.
  Are you covering your	balance?  Could	you help by $5 or
$10 more?  Could you consider donating to the textbook
fund, whether $5 or $50	(or more - wishful thinking)?
  The answer to	these questions	could make a BIG difference
in Lojban's success.

		 Research and Development

  Accomplishments - We've accomplished a lot in	only a
month.	The two	major papers in	this issue are the product
of several months work each, but were finally brought to
fruition this month, thanks to pc's visit and Bob's
sweating a lot of ink (Bob's aging printer is going through
a ribbon a week	these days).
  Assuming the adoption	of these two analyses, only three
chunks of the language have significant	open questions.
These are the tense system, MEX, and the making	of le'avla.
  Tense	- The most significant grammatically is	the Lojban
tense structure.  When pc was in Washington, we	discussed
the subject thoroughly,	and what remains is to incorporate
the decisions into the grammar and write it up.	 The
incorporation will take	only a few days	work - the grammar
of tense is isolated from the rest of the grammar, and Bob
has already redesigned it from scratch twice.  Writing it
up will	take a little longer, but the write-up will not	be
nearly as difficult as that of negation.
  MEX -	MEX, the grammar of mathematical expressions, is a
bigger problem,	but is only a small and	simple piece of	the


How can	le'avla	be made	efficiently and	intuitively so that meaning.  Thus, if two fields have claim to	the word
  language learners have the full power	of these words at   "integral",	they both can't	use "integra".
		      their disposal?			      A	few years ago, Bob proposed that all le'avla be
							    labelled by	some tag that associates the word with a
  There	are two	conflicting goals expressed in this	    particular jargon.	Thus all foods would have a label
question.  Any efficient and intuitive algorithm for	    saying that	the word was a food.  In short,	all le'avla
le'avla	inherently will	cut down on the	full potential use  would be invented as a sort	of lujvo, a compound of	two
of le'avla.						    words or parts of words, one a Lojban categorizer and one a
  Ideally, Lojban le'avla should be as much like borrowings base word having no	defined	meaning	or place structure.
found in other languages as possible.  Thus, jargon words     An advantage of Bob's approach is	that, if you are
for foods, technical and scientific terms, etc.	would be    unfamiliar with a jargon word, the label and morphology
easily recognized for what they	mean.  By this rationale,   will at least tell you that	it is a	jargon word of a par-
the word for the food "spaghetti" should be "spageti",	    ticular field.  Thus these words are more learnable	to a
which is indeed	a valid	le'avla; the word for "integral"    non-specialist.
should be the valid "integra".	These words would certainly   The disadvantage is that if you ARE in the field,	the
be easy	to learn.					    word will no longer	resemble the source language word, and
  There	are three problems with	this approach:		    will be more difficult to learn for	people trained in the
  - natural language borrowings	and jargon fail	Lojban's    specialty that uses	the word.
basic paradigm of Lojban is "one word -	one concept".  The    Ease of learning is important to using the full power of
word "integral"	has several jargon meanings - which meaning le'avla.  However, ease in making new understandable
will Lojban adopt, and how do you choose words for the	    le'avla is also important.	In natural language, new words
other jargon meanings.	Architectural 'integral' has no	    are	created	as borrowings all the time.  Lojbanists	need to
relation to mathematical 'integral'; each field	based its   be able to make new	le'avla	at will, with ease comparable
word on	a different etymological link to the English and    to the making of lujvo.
earlier	Latin concept embedded in the word 'integrate'.	      Unlike lujvo and gismu, le'avla have a more amorphous
  - recognition	of the word chosen depends on whether the   morphology,	and ease of making words requires some
appearance or the sound	in emulated.  Someone inventing	a   constraint on those	words.	A legal	le'avla	is defined
le'avla	'on the	fly' in	conversation, will not be thinking  merely as a	Lojban word having a consonant cluster in the
as much	about how it looks on paper, as	whether	it sounds   first 5 letters (which must	be a legal initial if at the
like the borrowed word.	 Conversely, a writer will concen-  beginning of the word), only permissible consonant clusters
trate on visual	recognition, often ignoring sound	    within the word, no	occurrences of 'y', a final vowel, and
differences.						    penultimate	stress.	 It also cannot	break down into	a
  - cultural bias.  Most borrowing nowadays is from English combination	of gismu, lujvo	and cmavo either directly, or
to other languages, and	such borrowing is often	at the ex-  if preceded	by a cmavo.
pense of perfectly good	words in the native tongue.	      le'avla space is thus primarily defined by what it is
Barring	adoption of the	Yorke-Grebogi proposal below, there not.  Testing to see if a word fits	the rules is difficult,
is no virtue in	making Lojban look like	an encoded English, subject to error, and virtually impossible to perform in
and any	massive	dependence on borrowing	from the one lan-   your head.
guage that all current Lojbanists know will suggest	      It turns out, though, that if you	always have something
uncontrolled cultural bias (whether it is true or not).	    on the front of the	word as	a marker of 'jargon type', as
  For any 'official list' of borrowed vocabulary, Lojban    proposed by	Bob, there is an algorithm (proposed by	John
should rely on careful comparison of like words	in several  Cowan) that	makes it as easy to make a le'avla in your head
languages, and borrow from a single language only when a    as it is to	make a lujvo.
tanru cannot be	made and when there is clear evidence that    The words	so formed are always good le'avla, and the
most other languages have similarly borrowed the word.	    front part can be any rafsi, which is glued	on by a
Otherwise, we would be better to compose a word	using a	    syllabic consonant like 'r'	that acts like a vowel.
variation of Lojban's gismu-making algorithm.		      Unfortunately, a side effect is that the rest of the word
  Most le'avla are really names	of a sort, applied to	    often cannot stand on its own as a word.  This means that
specialized concepts as	labels to allow	them to	be easily   all	le'avla	are forced to be at least one syllable longer
referred to.  There is no semantic breadth to these words   (the attached rafsi) than a	corresponding natural language
and they are unlikely to be used in tanru other	than in	a   source word, and that all jargon words in a	field will be
most obvious manner, much as one would talk of a Broadway   prefixed by	a common and redundant syllable.
play or	a Chrysler car.					      Bob favors this approach anyway -	it encourages tanru and
  Unfortunately, not all le'avla will remain 'name-like'.   lujvo-making as a preference to borrowing from other
Borrowings have	the habit of passing into common usage,	    languages, which is	likely to be heavily biased towards
ceasing	to be jargon, acquiring	the full range of	    English at least in	the early years.  Furthermore, the
connotations that other	words have, and	being used	    remaining le'avla word space need not remain unused	perma-
metaphorically to build	other concepts.			    nently.  Some review board can watch for le'avla that be-
  To preserve its integrity, Lojban has	to keep	all le'avla come 'more than jargon' by coming into common use and being
distinct from each other, so that each has only	one	    using in tanru.  Specialists in a field could also set up


boards to approve 'unofficial' jargon le'avla that could be building them reveals irregularities and asymmetries in the
flagged	as being special to the	field without repeating	the grammar.  We've already made two extremely minor changes as
redundant field	affix. (unofficial because someone has to   a result of	Carl's work, both expanding the	set of
resolve	between	two fields that	try to use the same word).  permissible	Lojban expressions to include a	symmetric
  'Official' short le'avla, on the other hand, would become equivalent of another structure.  The negation analysis
a subclass that	is as carefully	made and evaluated as	    discovered a third asymmetry, which	we repaired by removing
gismu.	A new learner need not learn these short forms if   several redundant rules from the language.
she/he knows how to reborrow the word anytime it is needed.   It is unlikely that anyone will notice any change	to the
  Is Bob's approach adequate?  Is the algorithm	for	    grammar after the baseline,	but our	rules require that any
building le'avla as easy to use	as it needs to be?  Are	    such change	be announced, explained	to all Lojbanists, and
there other approaches to be considered?  These	are not	    approved only after	a comment period.
really design issues, but usage	issues that will be	      The major	risk to	the grammar for	some time to come will
determined in future years by the people who learn and use  be the MEX component.  The MEX grammar is impossible to
the language.						    test without trying	to use it, and there is	nobody
  Until	then, we need to know what to teach in the	    competent enough in	Lojban who could make use of the
textbook.  This	is not something that Bob should decide	on  capabilities of MEX	to the degree necessary	to test	it like
his own.  What do you think?				    we have tested the rest of the grammar.  Only time will
  Grammar - With the expected completion of all	substantive prove MEX.	(Meanwhile, we'll try to be satisfied with one
grammar	changes	within the next	month or so, we	can finally of our several attempts at grammatically expressing	the
look to	baselining the grammar.	 A decision on this will be opening phrase of the Gettysburg Address.)
(hopefully) made at LogFest 90.	 As with the gismu list, we   Parser - Key to the final	test of	the grammar will be
expect a 'soft'	baseline that will last	several	months,	    completing the parser.  Unfortunately, Jeff	Taylor,	who has
followed by a hard freeze on the grammar, with the intent   written the	most comprehensive parser version so far, has
of holding the grammar constant	for 5 years, until fluent   indicated that he doesn't expect to	be able	to help	during
speakers can make decisions based on 'inside' knowledge	of  the	critical phrase	right after the	preliminary baseline.
the language.						      We are thus looking for people who know something	about
  There	are risks in baselining	- we might freeze a fatal   parsers to help out	over the next several months.
flaw into the language - but these risks are believed	      We must identify volunteers who are willing to strongly
small.	We've now taught 3 classes in Lojban, Bob has	    commit to seeing the project through to completion.	 The
written	draft lessons covering most basics of the language, parser project is too vital	to suffer problems we've had in
and Bob	and Athelstan have both	done translations of	    getting LogFlash ported to other computers.	 Committed
complex	and intricate works from other languages.  We also  people who know what they are doing, and who can and will
have our record	as a guideline.	 Over the last year, the    stick to it, can implement the current changes in a
grammar	is sufficiently	stable that we can still in good    relatively short time, and can minimize the	amount of work
conscience sell	the draft lesson materials written then.    needed to maintain the parser if testing shows that	further
There have been	changes, some drastic in overall effect	on  changes are	needed.
the language, but most do not affect the beginning speaker.   Some preferred qualifications:
  Writing the textbook may reveal more flaws.  Bob believes   -	ability	to program in C, and a knowledge of how	YACC-
that any such problems will be minor compared to the past   based parsers work,	so you can understand what Jeff	has
history	of the Loglan project, or even the recent history   done; rewriting or translating the existing, and working,
of Lojban.  Of the two big redesigns described in this is-  code in a different	language is not	an effective use of
sue, only one even required minimal changes in the grammar. time; porting the parser to	other computers	is a task for
  The parser may reveal	a few more problems, as	may the	    when the grammar has been baselined	and tested with	the
random sentence	generator.  Most of the	problems detected   first parser;
by the parser have been	minor ones related to elidable	      -	a demonstrated attempt to learn	the Lojban grammar,
terminators that turned	out not	to be elidable because of   which probably means that you are a	level 3	student; most
the restrictions of YACC grammars (thus	an incomplete sen-  of the problems to be dealt	with require a knowledge of why
tence consisting of bare sumti with no selbri must be	    we are implementing	a rule,	not just what the rule is.  The
followed by "vau" to be	grammatical).  Doug Landauer has    programmer needs to	communicate with those who are not
proposed a more	powerful parser-writing	tool which might    familiar with the inside of	the parser, like Bob (some
simplify the grammar and resolve these problems.  Following level 1 and	level 2	people might be	able to	do this, but
a soft baseline, though, such improvement would	have to	be  we'll be harder to convince);
either invisible to the	average	user, or offer a benefit      -	an MS-DOS computer environment with a C	compiler; this
major enough to	warrant	changing the baseline (and the	    is for compatibility with Bob and with our community, which
textbook that will be written based on that baseline).	    primarily uses PC-compatibles with MS-DOS.	We eventually
  A final source of changes may	come from an analysis in    want to have a UNIX	version	of the parser, but nearly all
progress by Carl Burke (and possibly to	be assisted by	    of the people who will be involved with testing the	parser
David Bowen and	others)	to convert the YACC grammar into a  cannot work	with a UNIX version.
simpler	format called 'Extended	BNF'.  'BNF' grammars are     -	a willingness to work on the parser pretty much	to the
easier to read than YACC grammars, and the process of	    exclusion of other Lojbanic	efforts	for a while; this has


to be voluntary, but only for a	few months of part-time	    quired whether an English translation might	be considered
work, until a minimal working parser is	produced;	    by the publisher (How many of you would buy	such a
  - there is a preference for a	single person or a small    translated novel, merely knowing what we've	told you?).  If
co-located team, preferably near Washington DC - this is    the	book is	published as expected, la lojbangirz. will try
simply for communications and logistics	purposes.  Since    to make it available to the	community.
Jeff lives in California, distance has proven to be a	      Most significant has been	the increase in	membership in
surmountable problem.					    the	Usenet/Internet	computer mail-server, called 'lojban-
  We have about	3000 lines of C	code, which Jeff says is    list', which is approaching	100 people, including those
not especially well commented.	The user interface is	    cross-linked from Compuserve.  Now all we have to do is get
fairly solid.  The primary work	is inserting new YACC	    these people talking - the net has been relatively silent.
grammars into the parser, and modifying	the hand-coded	    Since Bob has to pay long distance rates to	use the	net, he
rules in the lexer to reflect similar changes in the YACC-  can't lead activity.  Thus people need to start talking
verified grammar.  The basic style is fairly well set, so   about their	own interests.
we need	someone	who can	read Jeff's code and complete it,     Our major	publicity effort this year independent of the
not rewrite it.	 Time required is expected to be less than  textbook publishing, and any advertising that is associated
100 total hours	once you know Jeff's code, and make any	    with that, will be Athelstan's trip	to Europe, which is
conversions to run the code in your environment.  Jeff	    described under International news below.  Bob and Nora are
tried to design	the system so that inserting a new grammar  planning a trip to California in late August to early
would be very fast; and	has demonstrated that his concept   September, but haven't made	specific plans yet.
works several times.
  What do you get for this?  Only our thanks and credit	in
the final product.  Since Jeff did the bulk of the work	and			     Education
has chosen not to retain ownership rights, it would be
unfair to offer	greater	remuneration to	anyone else.	      Athelstan	finished his introductory class	in Lojban in
  I'm sure I've	made this out to be worse than it really    early May.	Unfortunately, attendance at each session was
is.  But there will be a lot of	pressure to get	the parser  inconsistent, so not as much was covered as	he had
completed without constant support from	Bob, who will be    intended; however, a good survey of	the entire language was
writing	the textbook.  Faint souls should not venture	    completed.	Of 10 who signed up, 4 or 5 'completed'	the
forth.							    course, in that they have moved past the basic material
  Any volunteers?					    covered and	can continue studying productively on their own
							    using the draft textbook lessons.  One of these graduates
							    is moving to the Kansas City area, and we are hoping she
		   Growth and Publicity			    will help the several others living	in that	area when the
							    textbook is	finished.
  Our growth rate continues at a phenomenal pace, although    Eric Tiedemann has gotten	the New	York City people
it has slowed some since the beginning of the year.	    together, and two classes will be starting there.  One will
Actually, growth may be	continuing at the same rate, but a  start 20 May, and run every	Sunday afternoon (except
few people have	responded to the questionnaire in JL10 by   Memorial Day and LogFest weekends) at his residence	in
dropping out or	indicating that	they wish to be	inactive    Manhattan (near Columbia U.) for most of the summer; the
until the textbook is done.  We	don't count these people in other will be on Wednesdays	in Brooklyn at Marc Glasser and
our active mailing list.				    Donna Camp's residence.  We'll report on progress next
  Our growth has been almost entirely in the more active    issue.
levels.	 We've added another half-dozen	level 3	students in   We also have a potential class in	the Vancouver BC area,
the last month,	and one	of these, John Cowan, has already   as mentioned above,	and Rory Hinnen	has been trying	for
done his first Lojban writing, a fairly	sophisticated	    months to get people together for a	Los Angeles area class
translation of a single	extremely complex (and weird)	    (if	you live in LA,	and are	interested, his	phone number
English	sentence - but more on this next issue when we	    was	in le lojbo karni #11, or write	to Bob at the la loj-
print it.						    bangirz. address and he'll try to get you in touch with
  Much of our growth has been outside the US.  There seems  Rory.)
to be a	budding	class or study group in	the Vancouver BC
area, led by new Lojbanist Mischa Sandberg.  He	contacted
us as a	result of our interview	on the CBC Canadian
national radio program.	 Some French-speaking Lojbanists in
Canada have started learning the language as well.
  We'll	have to	leave details out until	things are more
definite, but one of these new French-speaking Lojbanists
is a well-known	science	fiction	writer,	who wants to
incorporate Lojban as a	major element in an in progress
French-language	novel about a 'logical language'.  We've
offered	to assist in incorporating 'good Lojban' and in-


		    International News			    drills in the program should significantly enhance your
							    memorization rate.
Athelstan's Travel Plans - Athelstan is	doing detailed	      List of Available	Papers - My initial search (described
planning for his trip to Europe	and Israel in August	    last issue)	turned up rather fewer items than I had	hoped.
through	October.  He promises to stay out of the poison	ivy The	following are what I have readily available, with page
this time.  (For those not with	us last	summer,	Athelstan   counts (parenthetical notes	indicate the subject of	the
contracted an awful case of poison ivy just as he was to    paper - not	always clear from the title).
leave on a cross country trip.	After being bedridden for a   There are	a few other papers that	I have,	which I	am less
full week, keeping his schedule	was impossible,	and the	    sure the authors intend for	me to make public.  If you have
whole trip was cancelled.)				    sent me something in the past that you think should	be on
  Here is his approximate route:			    this list and isn't, please	let me know.
He will	be in The Hague, Netherlands during the	third week    We are charging 15c/page for these to cover the extra
of August for the World	Science	Fiction	Convention.  He	    work and Xeroxing charge for these essentially individual
will meet with any Lojbanists who can make it there.  After orders.  Filling these orders will also be on a low
spending a week	thereafter sightseeing in the Benelux coun- priority basis, unless you are doing a volunteer activity
tries, he plans	to cross over into Germany, possibly	    requiring the materials for	some reason, and these items
travelling by bicycle.	He will	definitely be stopping in   require payment or existing	positive balance.
Goettingen.  By	now it is early	September.  He will then
travel on a Eurorail pass south, stopping at several places Athelstan and Bob LeChevalier:  Review of Loglan 1 - 12 pg.
in Germany, and	passing	into Austria and/or Switzerland	    James F. Carter:  The Language Gua\	spi - 18 Nov 1988 (the
(partly	dependent on the Lojbanists in those countries).      latest paper we have describing Carter's tone-based
  Athelstan will pass from Switzerland going west; he	      language derived from Loglan - Carter occasionally
intends	to stop	in Bessas in southern France to	visit	      revises this paper, and we'll send you the latest	we
Lojbanist John Negus.  He will then return eastward into      have, though the page count may vary) - 23 pg.
Italy, stopping	in the Turin area to give talks	with the    Paul Doudna:  Back to School - P*L*G*S Revisited ('Pretty
assistance of Lojbanist	Silvia Romanelli.  Next	he will	go    Little Girls School' and the Ambiguity of	tanru) - 14 pg.
south to the boot-heel of Italy	and take the Brindisi ferry Paul Doudna:  Comments on Loglan 1 (1989) -	12 pg.
to Greece, and eventually will continue	on to Israel.  One  Paul Doudna:  Comments on MEX as discussed in JL9 -	2 pg.
of our level 3 (American) students is planning to move to   Paul Doudna:  Consolidated Synopsis	of the Categories from
Israel,	and will help Athelstan	organize and present talks    Roget's Thesaurus	(a detailed analysis based on 4
there.							      different	thesaurus versions) - 26 pg.
  All this wandering will use up his month of rail travel,  Paul Doudna:  Lojban Predicate Categories (Semantic
leaving	him in early October returning by a much more	      Categories of Lojban gismu) - 77 pg.
direct route to	the Netherlands	around mid-October, from    T. Peter Park:  Lojban (two	excellent introductory papers
which he'll return to the U.S.				      that will	be the basis for a new Overview	for new	people
  Another ambitious schedule, but more likely to be	      when we get time)	23 pg.
completed since	he can sleep on	the train between stops.    T. Peter Park:  Lojban Etymologies (sample gismu
  Brochures - By the time Athelstan goes overseas, we	      etymologies compared to roots in several languages, not
should have completed the translation of the brochure into    just the basic 6 used to create them) - 6	pg.
French and Italian, and	we are trying to arrange	    T. Peter Park:  On Reconstructing the Common Origin	of
translations into Spanish and German (any volunteers to	      Modern Languages (the work of Morris Swadesh and others
translate or to	check someone else's translation?).  We	      postulating a common language origin, and	a poem in
will have pre-shipped supplies to several places along his    Nostratic) - 21 pg.
route so that he doesn't have to cart them all over Europe, T. Peter Park:  Prehistoric	gismu?:	 Lojban	and the	Human
but Athelstan should have copies of most of our		      Proto-Language and The Morris Swadesh "Top 100" in Lojban
publications to	show off as he goes.			      (compares	Lojban words and etymologies with hypothetical
  If you aren't	on this	itinerary, we'll have to try to	      proto-language words; 2 papers) -	12 pg.
catch you next trip, unless you	can meet Athelstan	    Eric Raymond:  La Tenguar: A romantic Orthography for
somewhere on his route.	 To do any coordination	of this	      Lojban (Applying the Tenguar Alphabet of Tolkien to
sort, we need to hear from you as soon as possible.	      Lojban) -	6 pg.
		    Products and Policy
							      I	am also	expecting some papers from Andy	Hilgartner,
  lujvo	Analyzer - Nora	has enhanced the lujvo-making	    relating General Semantics,	Lojban,	and novel theories of
program	so that	it also	takes lujvo apart for you, giving   logic, sets, and behavior that he and his associates have
you the	source tanru, in addition to putting them together  developed over the last few	decades.
and drilling you on the	latter skill.  No price	increase      The Planned Languages File Server	- We've	had a lot of
for the	added capability.  Nora	is also	adding a drill on   requests for distribution of our materials 'on-line' via
taking lujvo apart, which will be available by LogFest.	    electronic mail.  For reasons we'll	go into	in a minute, we
For those few who have made it to LogFlash 2, the lujvo	    have to constrain this somewhat.  Meanwhile, we will at-
							    tempt to make some of our most common items	available via


computer mail, via a new 'Planned Languages file server'    number of people that we believe will contribute to	that
service	offered	by Jerry Altzman and Mark Shoulson.	    effort.
  If you have network access and haven't heard of this	      Finally, since the bulk of the decisions made on any
setup, contact:						    issue require extensive interchange, usually both informal
							    and	verbal,	most people get	their chance to	participate	    only at LogFest.  Because it takes place only once a year,
							    we tend to have too	many issues 'on	the table' at LogFest
(Compuserve people prefix with 'INTERNET:').		    to discuss each of them in detail with everyone.  Therefore
							    we have to ask the community to trust its leaders to
If you send a one-line message containing the word 'help'   consider everyone's	viewpoint.  After all, we have ultimate
only to	this address, it will send you help information	-   accountability to you - if we don't	do a good enough job on
or you can ask more specific questions.			    the	language, you won't learn and use it.
  Items	I plan to send to the file server include:
- the gismu list					      Why the current policy?  Several reasons,	notably	cost,
- the rafsi list					    time, schedule, and	our image as a project.
- the brochure in English and French			      Cost - It	costs money to produce these materials,	and
- the Overview						    this includes basic	overhead costs and the R&D costs of
- the latest machine grammar (after the	LogFest	reviews)    producing the first	copy of	any document, as well as
- the Saki story translated by Athelstan for JL10, with	    reproduction, postage, and everyday	business expenses (for
  parser analysis and the JL10 English.			    example, we	pay state sales	tax on Virginia	'sales'	even
If I have time,	these files will be on-line by the time	you when they aren't paid for, and on all stuff	we throw out
receive	this.						    unsold).  Every free copy we give out means	that we	either
  I will listen	to requests from people	for any	other items need to replace the	recipient's share of our costs with
they wish to see distributed via this service.	Decisions   donations, or charge everyone who does pay even more.  This
will be	made on	an item-by-item	basis.	However, we will    is unfair.	With our voluntary balance system, we can at
not be putting up materials until we are reasonably sure of least let people know what their share is, and they	can
their long-term	stability, and some materials like JL and   decide whether they	can afford to contribute their share,
the Synopsis, are too dependent	on text	formatting for us   and	whether	they will.
to readily make	ASCII versions.				      As a note	on this	justification, it does not save	us the
  We have no problem with other	people putting up their	own full cost of a copy	to send	you something via electronic
interpretations	and proposals for various aspects of the    mail.  Even	if we use a means of free distribution (as we
language (please send us a hard	copy for the archive record plan to do for limited purposes as described below), the
please), but we	would like people not to post copies of	our lower copy volume increases	our per	copy cost on the rest.
materials and publications on electronic media,	at least      As anyone	who has	sold software under 'Shareware'	can
not without asking us first.				    tell you, only a small fraction of the people who get an
  This is part of a large and complicated policy problem    on-line Shareware product ever pay for it.	Thus only a
regarding materials distribution.  Our policy that reflects stable product requiring small support expenditures	can be
numerous constraints, and it is	not one	we are necessarily  distributed, unless	the product becomes extremely
happy with.  Because this policy has been recently	    widespread,	or the suppliers have independent financing.
questioned, we will discuss it at LogFest.  Meanwhile, we   We don't.
want to	explain	what that policy is, and why we	feel bound    Hopefully, this will change after	the language is
to it.							    baselined and the books are	written.  During the time
							    period before then,	the survival of	the language is
Policy - Here is our distribution policy:		    dependent on la lojbangirz.'s financial solvency, and we
							    need to ensure this	continues.
  la lojbangirz. encourages the	free exchange and	      Time - Time affects mostly the special orders policy, and
distribution of	information about Lojban.  We thus have	a   the	involvement of people in the decision-making process.
copyright policy that encourages distribution 'without	      To put it	simply,	I (Bob)	have only a limited amount of
charge'	of most	of our materials.  The actual design of	the time and far too much to do	if we want to have a textbook
language, as opposed to	the materials describing it, are    and	dictionary soon; I already spend as much as half my
considered to be fully in the public domain.		    time on overhead activities	and filling orders.  If	I take
  We can't, however, extend this policy	to draft versions   extra time to fill special orders, the important work
of our to-be-published materials.  With	this material, we   doesn't get	done.
do not want people freely distributing it, without checking   If I fill	some special orders, I have to fill them all;
with us	first (at which	point we'll probably OK	it on an    it would be	only fair.  Thus, I must avoid filling any,
individual case	basis).					    unless the order is	justified by a specific	project	goal.
  While	we would like to include everyone in whatever	      Thus, if you want	something that isn't on	the order form,
aspects	of the project they choose, we cannot.	For any	    you	can ask	for it.	 If there is enough demand, we will
given research and development effort, we have to limit	    consider adding it to our regular offerings.
distribution of	the various draft proposals to a manageable


  Schedule - People have been waiting for 35 years for the    A	lot of people have invested time in learning previous
language to be completed.  The language	is essentially done versions of	the language, only to find the language	they'd
now.  The research questions that occupy so much of our	    learned was	changing like the desert landscape in a
time and paper may seem	major, but are really trivial cor-  windstorm.
rections.  The changes reflected in the	38-page	negation      The Loglan Project has had a history of uncontrolled
paper, for example, can	be summed up two lines of the YACC  change, one	that Lojban must live with until we have proved
grammar	- all the rest is 'teaching material' so that	    stability.	As a result, Bob keeps fairly detailed records
reviewers (and the textbook writer) understand the same	    of who gets	what version of	what materials,	so that	updates
interpretation of those	two lines.			    can	be provided on request.	 (This is the mysterious
  Most of the work on these minor issues require a lot of   difference between 'level 1' and 'level 2'.)
time, and a fairly deep	knowledge of the language.  We rely   Because of the aura of 'official-ness' that attaches to
on people, like	pc, with an immense historical knowledge of our	publications, and because we are writing material
the discussions	that have taken	place undocumented over	the intended to	look authoritative when	approved, you cannot
last dozen years or more.				    always tell	that a draft is	incomplete or unapproved.
  New people have a lot	to contribute, too, and	our pages   Because so much of our work	is paper hard-copy oriented, we
are studded with names like Michael Helsem, John Cowan,	and don't have a system	in place to reliably inform people of
Albion Zeglin, and John	Hodges,	who have made contributions the	current	status of any particular document they get
to the language	by asking the right question at	the right   access to.	It is thus likely that someone getting a copy
time, proposing	a simple idea that offers major	benefit	    of draft material other than from us will be working with
without	causing	traumatic language change or relearning, or outdated information.  If someone invests time in learning
simply by showing us what the language looks like when	    from our materials,	and then finds the stuff is obsolete,
someone	uses it.					    they get upset - with us - for misleading them.  They also
  These	new people are part of an 'inner circle' of their   get	the wrong impression that language change is not under
own creation, one of participation.  There is, however,	    control enough for them to bother learning.
because	of schedule, another 'inner circle' that is making    Even if we had a good system for marking drafts, we still
the 'last minute' decisions about the details of the	    have to exercise some care.	 It can	be argued that people
language.  This	circle is by no	means fixed - it changes    who	get well-marked	drafts and study from them, do so at
from issue to issue, and usually involves the proposer of   their own risk.  But it is the language effort as a	whole
the change, however new	that person is.	 The core, however, that is at risk.  If these people ignore the warnings, but
has been pc, Nora, Bob,	Athelstan, and for vocabulary	    then feel misled anyway, they leave; hundreds of people
issues,	Tommy Whitlock.	 The primary qualification for this have done so with prior versions of	the language.  The
level of involvement has been a	willingness to allow Lojban language was virtually dead	in 1986-7 (less	than a half-
to disrupt and dominate	the rest of your life activities    dozen people were still actively working on	the language)
(pc spent a couple of days reviewing the negation paper	    when the effort that became	la lojbangirz. got started.
during the week	of his wedding), but that is the price of     The majority of Lojbanists have little interest in the
getting	the language done now.				    language development project, other	than to	know that their
  There	is no intent to	exclude	others,	but we do, and we   concerns are listened to.  They want a language, complete
unfortunately must, as a side effect of	trying to get the   and	ready-to-learn.	 That is la lojbangirz.'s primary
language done.	For every new person we	bring into a	    priority.
discussion of any issue, we have to provide that person	      After the	language baseline, there will be a 5-or-more-
with the history, and the language design affecting that    year period	of little or no	change,	rigidly	controlled.  By
decision.  If the language is ever going to be finished, we being slow and rigidly controlled, we can then involve
have to	draw the line fairly strictly.	Any new	person has  everyone, though practically speaking, while a newcomer
to work	hard, and gain an understanding	of the issues based might find a problem, only someone who has learned the lan-
on their own study, and	whatever occasional help we can	    guage will be able to devise a credible solution.
offer.							      There will probably be as	many or	more proposals for
  Draft	materials are the results of some one person's	    change as there are	now, but the people who	learn the
study of a particular research problem,	and a given version language will know that the	proposals are just debate.
circulates among the 'inner circle' that is associated with After the five-year	period,	they will be the ones to select
that problem.  If the problem is critical, or if the	    which if any changes to accept.  The language will no
results	will take too long to complete in the face of high  longer be imposed on people	from outside 'experts',	but
demand,	as with	the cmavo list,	we release this	draft to    will be a living language responding to its	own internal
our entire subscriber list to look at, to use, and to	    life.  The freeze on the language will not end until the
comment	on.  For these drafts, the final quality isn't	    speakers of	the language have enough self-confidence (and
there, and stability isn't promised.  Yet, because anything inertia) that they keep control over the rate of change
we 'publish' smacks of being 'official', our draft publica- they will permit (which will probably be as	low as any
tions are treated more seriously than any informal writer's other 'stable' language).  This is the way it must be.
expressed proposals or opinions.			      Finally, addressing one of the original issues that led
  Image	- Which	brings us to the image problems	of	    to this discussion,	we cannot orient the Lojban effort
stability, veracity, and inclusiveness.			    around the computer	communications network.	 To do so would


be to practice an exclusion of non-computer people that	we  'adjectives', and then all the varying declensions of each.
cannot afford.						    Thus the Institute may be repeating	ancient	history.
  Too many of our most committed and productive	workers	      Rex May Resigns -	Rex May	has resigned as	'editor' of
have no	access to the computer networks, and about half	the Lognet.  He	had held this position for the last two	issues,
community has no particular access to computers	at all.	    although JCB did the production.  Rex indicates that JCB
Many of	these people have complained about an apparent bias made editorial decisions without consulting	with Rex, and
towards	people with computers and computer knowledge.  This specifically refused to print an article Rex had written
is partly due to Bob's bad habits of accidentally using	    proposing a	different morphology for Loglan	words.	Rex
computer jargon	throughout his writing.			    plans to submit it for publication in Ju'i Lobypli after
  We can encourage 'on-line interchange', and have done	so. rewriting it.
I'm spending far more time supporting 'lojban-list' then I    The resignation was due partly because of	editorial
intended to.  But, we cannot afford to even appear to	    disputes with JCB, and partly because of the dispute
exclude	people who don't have computers.  In fact, we have  between la lojbangirz. and JCB.  Rex printed a statement in
to try especially hard to include people without computers, the	recent issue of	Lognet that was	critical of la
to make	sure that they can participate to the same degree   lojbangirz.	for not	clearly	demonstrating to him why we
as everyone else.					    feel that JCB had made Loglan public domain.  He has
							    indicated that this	statement was printed in order to stir
							    a response from the	community.  Only two people responded,
		 News About the	Institute		    but	the answers were sufficient to provoke Rex's resig-
  Readers have indicated that they want	me to avoid	      Rex has given us the following comment for publication:
commentary in this section, on the assumption that everyone "I have decided that the 'ownership' of the	Loglan language
who cares already knows	about the political and		    is at best equivocal.  As editor I feared I	was taking
intellectual property disputes between la lojbangirz. and   sides.  I don't want to take sides on something I can't
the Loglan Institute.  Anybody who doesn't know	what's	    figure out."
going on, and cares, can write to la lojbangirz. for	      Rex also wrote a review of Loglan	1 for Liberty magazine
explanation.						    (March 1990), a libertarian	publication.  The review was
  New Lognet Published - Jim Brown (JCB) put out another    very positive, although it concentrated more on the
Lognet around the beginning of April.  He reports about	300 positive aspects of	Loglan than those of the book.	A
copies of Loglan 1 sold, and about a dozen new members for  rebuttal letter that severely criticizes Rex's review ap-
the Institute.	He also	reports	that the Institute is still peared in the May issue.  The comments seem	to be aimed at
losing money even at that sales	level.			    Loglan in general, although	the comments are based in
  JCB also reported that he and	his wife visited some	    response to	Rex's statements.  The criticisms of the
Arizona	universities and an anthropology oriented science   language are flawed, and appeared to be based on the
fiction	convention.  JCB gave several talks on Loglan, and  writer's negative attitudes	toward what Rex	had written,
reported being encouraged by how easily	people seem to	    rather than	on any independent knowledge of	the language.
learn pieces of	the language.  He also met with	an unnamed  Thus, more than anything else, the exchange	seems to have
colleague to work on a paper about Loglan which	he plans to demonstrated the difficulty	in writing very	short articles
use as a delayed answer	to Arnold Zwicky, who strongly	    about Loglan/Lojban	for a broad audience; if specifics are
criticized linguistic aspects of Loglan	in the late 1960's. given out of context, inevitably a few readers will
  Several technical proposals for changing the Institute    incorrectly	generalize or otherwise	misinterpret what has
version	of Loglan were discussed.  Most	of the proposals    been presented.
either are not applicable to the Lojban	version, or have      la lojbangirz. is	considering a response to the Liberty
been incorporated already in our design.		    exchange, especially since Lojban was not mentioned.
  There	are apparently several proposals under		    Unfortunately though, the misinformed criticisms seem to
consideration for resolving two	of the flaws in	Institute   have dampened Rex's	enthusiasm for the language, if	not
Loglan that Athelstan and Bob specifically identified in    others.
their review of	Loglan 1.					      _______________________________________
  One reader argued against a proposal from the	December
issue (discussed in JL11), that	would divide up	Institute     Athelstan	has noticed that people	seem intimidated by the
Loglan gismu into 'nouns', 'verbs' and 'adjectives' of	    concept of predicates and by the apparent amount of	work
several	types, and given each group a peculiar series of    required to	memorize place structures.  Athelstan here
inflections based on varying the final vowel.  The argument explains what a predicate is, and shows that learning place
against	the proposal seems to have convinced JCB.	    structures is familiar and natural to every	English
  Interestingly, a new paper in	the journal of the New York speaker.
Academy	of Sciences reports that linguists investigating
proto-languages	are hypothesizing that the earliest lan-      A	Brief Introduction to Predicates and Place Structures
guage had only one vowel, and that multiple vowels appeared			   by Athelstan
in language to distinguish between related meanings - these
differing meanings then	became 'nouns',	'verbs', and


  A predicate in Lojban	- or in	logic -	is a relationship		     John reads	the sentence.
between	one or more arguments.	For example, if	John is					and
Sam's uncle, then we say:						    le jufra cu	tcidu la djan.
									     The sentence reads	John.
		la djan. cu rirbu'a la sem.
							    are	as different in	Lojban as they are in English.
If John	hits Sam, we say:
							      Lojban "dunda" has the place structure:
		 la djan. cu darxi la sem.
										  A gives B to C.
	    If John is taller than Sam,	we say:
							    which has the giver, the gift and the recipient.
	       la djan.	cu sraclamau la	sem.
									la sem.	cu dunda le cukta la djan.
  Although the English sentences vary in appearance and			la djan. cu dunda le cukta la sem.
grammatical structure, the Lojban sentences are	similar	to		la djan. cu dunda la sem. le cukta
each other.  The type of relationship varied from state					and
(English noun) to active (English verb)	to characteristic		le cukta cu dunda la sem. la djan.
(English adjective), but it remained that all three were
relationships between John and Sam, so Lojban treated them  go through the same	convolutions in	meaning	that their
all the	same grammatically; this is the	heart and soul of   English counterparts do.
Lojban grammar.						      So place structures are not foreign to English speakers.
  Each relationship has	characteristic arguments or roles   We use them; we just don't think about them	or talk	about
associated with	it.  Uncle has the "uncle" and "nephew"	or  them.  They	also move in funny and subtle ways in natural
"niece".  Giving has the "giver", the "recipient" and the   languages, and we learn by example how to manipulate them.
"gift".	 Reading has the "reader", the "text", and the	    Lojban makes them regular and explicit and it's easy to
"document" or "medium of recording" (e.g. book,	headstone,  manipulate them.
CRT screen).
  In English most verbs	have a rigid place for each of
these arguments.  For example (leaving off the last place):		Proposals to be	Decided	at LogFest

		 John reads the	sentence.		      The two papers separately	attached are intended for
			    and				    comment, discussion, and (hopefully) approval at LogFest
		 The sentence reads John.		    90.	 They were written by Bob, and have passed a stiff
							    review by Nora, Athelstan, and pc.	If you cannot attend,
mean two entirely different things.			    feel free to send in your comments anyway.
							      The negation paper probably contains about the equivalent
  Similarly:						    of 1 1/2 draft textbook lessons worth of technical
							    information, and the attitudinal paper another lesson's
		 Sam gives John	the book.		    worth, thus	providing level	3 students with	significantly
		 John gives Sam	the book.		    more study material	on the language.  They are bound
		 John gives the	book Sam.		    separately so that students	can bind them together with
			    and				    textbook lessons in	they wish.  The	attitudinal word list
		 The book gives	John Sam.		    is bound separately	from the paper,	for the	benefit	of
							    those who bind their various word lists together.
are all	different, and the change in meaning is	directly      There are	also several minor proposals which will	be
related	to the change in position.			    discussed.	Some of	these are included in the following
  Lojban predicates also have specific places for specific  pages.
arguments.  This place structure is denoted explicitly in     It isn't clear how well detailed technical topics	can be
the definition,	unlike natural language	place structures    discussed at a meeting like	LogFest, where attendees
which are learned subtly as implicit usage of the word.	 In backgrounds	and interests are widely disparate, so the
Lojban,	for example, the place structure of tcidu (read)    amount of group discussion time given to each will be de-
is:							    termined by	how many are interested, and how much chance
							    they have had to review the	proposal.  Objections to any
		 A reads B from	medium C.		    proposal will be noted, of course, and small side
							    discussions	will take place	as we have time, to resolve
  The place structure includes the reader, the text, and    these.  LogFest decisions are usually made by consensus,
the medium being read from.  So:			    occasionally by direct vote; all proposals not relegated
							    for	specific further study will be decided one way or the
		la djan. cu tcidu le jufra


other, though -	in previous years this has meant wrap-up    close enough, one of these could be	transferred to the new
discussions on Monday, or even Tuesday.			    word.
  Now for specific proposals.				      4.-5. Bob	proposes that "dawn" and possibly "twilight"
							    (the evening equivalent of dawn) be	considered based on
gismu Baseline Changes - New gismu are required	by our	    similar analogy, noting that these are primitive concepts
baseline rules to be discussed and approved.  They are	    in many cultures.  At the very least, we need good lujvo
supposed to be analyzed	in the 6 languages and 'made'	    for	each.
before the proposal is decided,	but we do not currently	      6. A similar situation to	the "diurne"/"daytime" pair
have an	Arabic dictionary reader available (any		    exists for "good" and "virtue".  With the exception	of
volunteers?).  This is relatively unimportant; rules also   English, the same words are	used for both of these
stipulate that words to	be added will be 'coined' from	    concepts.  Tommy Whitlock thus argued successfully for not
unfilled space when the	invented word causes a conflict,    including "virtue" in our original gismu list.  The
since we don't want to change the baseline word	set unless  corresponding was not true for "bad" and "evil", these were
absolutely necessary.  Change proposals	are numbered for    distinguished in the source	languages (as shown by the
clear reference.					    widely differing words "palci" and "xlali").
  1. A major reason for	adding or changing a word is the      As a result of the negation analysis, these concepts have
desire to give the concept a rafsi.  This is the reason	for again surfaced for discussion.  A few concepts are being
last issue's proposal to change	"ckamu"	to "mleca".  There  proposed for gismu as a result of that analysis, on	the
are no other outstanding proposals to change words.	    basis that the concepts are	not well represented as
  2. Last year's LogFest decided that the concept "text"    negatives of their perceived 'opposite' in English,	or that
probably did not need to be a gismu, but no general	    there is significant difficulty with assigning one to be
solution was found expressing the concept.  Recently,	    'positive' and the other 'negative'.  In each of these
Athelstan recognized that nearly all meanings of the word   cases, with	the exception of "good"/"virtue", languages
"text" can be covered by "se tcidu" ("selci'u" = 'x1 is	    generally have words of different roots for	each of	the
read-by/readable by ...', with the added tanru qualifier    opposing pairs.
"lerfu se tcidu" ("lefselci'u")	to be absolutely clear,	if    There are	two related arguments for adding "virtue".  One
"tcidu"	comes to have broader meanings than just the	    is based on	place structures.  The place structure for
reading	of text.  Chinese ideograms probably are included   "xamgu" and	for "xlali" are	parallel:  "x1 is good/bad for
in these definitions for "text", since they are	"read" and  x2 by standard x3".	"palci", on the	other hand, has	the
they are "lerfu" of a sort.  This finding, if agreed upon,  place structure "x1	is evil	by standard x2"	- "evil" is an
will remove this proposal from the table.		    absolute concept in	that it	doesn't	depend on who it
  3. Bob wants to revisit the issue of whether we need a    affects.
gismu to separately indicate "day" in the sense	of	      Clearly, while the opposite of "good" is "bad" and vice
"daylight".  The current meaning of "djedi" is the time	    versa, the opposite	of "evil" is not "good"; this will
interval of '24	hours';	the separate term was omitted in    confuse people who don't carefully read place structures,
the original gismu effort because nearly all languages use  and	lead to	the same murky semantics that exists in	the
the same word for both concepts, although most languages    natural languages.
recognize that the meanings are	distinct.  The concept	      Tommy Whitlock has argued	for eliminating	"palci"	and
'daylight' can be represented clearly as the tanru "sun-    making both	"virtue" and "evil" as tanru: "marde xamgu"
above" or "sun-high" ("solga'u"	or "solgau"), but Bob	    ("madyxau")	and "marde xlali" ("madyxla").	Bob feels that
believes that there will come to be many concepts built	    the	place structure	argument shows that this will only
from the concept "daytime", enough that	it should have a    weaken the distinctive relativity of the concepts "xlali"
rafsi.	Otherwise those	compounds will be 3-part lujvo at   and	"xamgu", wherein a single event	can be good for	one
minimum, and probably much longer.  Bob	notes that we have  person and bad for another,	even by	the same standard.  It
gismu currently	for "evening", "morning", and "night", all  is easy to imagine philosophical and theological arguments
of the same semantic group as "daytime".  (There is also a  where the place structure distinction is vital, and	dis-
question as to how to create culturally	neutral	definitions tinctive place structures are the core of Lojban's identity
of these terms - for example, the word for "morning"	    as a predicate language.
describes a different time-range in Sweden and Germany than   There are	uncountable other examples where place
it does	in the U.S..  This will	also be	discussed at	    structure arguments	could be used to justify adding	a
LogFest.)						    gismu, but the dependence of entire	fields of thought on
  To avoid confusion between meanings, and possibly bad	    the	distinctions implicit in these particular place
tanru as a result, Bob also proposes changing the keyword   structures suggest that this is one	case where a change is
for "djedi" to "diurnal" or "diurne".			    justified.
  An argument against a	word for "daytime" is that the same   7. Another proposal based	on the example of other
words are used for both	meanings of "day" in all of our	    languages is "tears", referring to droplets	expelled in
languages.  Thus the algorithm will spit out "djedi" as	the weeping.  The concept has apparently been traced back to
preferred form.	 But there are lower score forms on the	    proto-language times.  Lojban has gismu for	"weep" and for
list, possibly similar to "djedi".  Bob	notes that "djedi"  "drop" and for "liquid".  Thus all needed aspects can be
currently has 3	rafsi, and if the word for "daytime" was    expressed as lujvo.	 In English, of	course,	we have


numerous connotations of tears,	and a particular shape	    Lojban was unaesthetic, and	was casting around for possible
called 'teardrop'; it is unlikely that these connotations   changes to improve it.
are universal, and tears are no	more likely to take the	      More generally, the issue	is 'readability'.  I have some
shape named after them than any	other kind of droplet on a  further thoughts.
surface.  Thus we cannot claim any particular use in lujvo    I	would like to retract the suggestion I made on the
as a justification.  The only solid argument is	historico-  phone.  I suggested	switching the functions	of the period
linguistic.  Is	this sufficient?			    and	comma, because "it is less jarring to encounter	a comma
  8.-11.  Four other 'opposites' are proposed based on the  in the middle of a sentence".  Looking over	the text in
negation analysis.  These are "ugly" as	opposed	to	    JL10, I think it would be even more	jarring	to see a comma
"beautiful", "diffuse" as opposed to "dense", "decrease" as at the beginning of	a sentence.  Periods are visually
opposed	to "increase", and "deficient" as opposed to	    neater than	commas;	we can get used	to them.
"sufficient".  These, of all scalar negatives, seem	      I	also suggested capitalizing the	first letter of	certain
especially common concepts in natural languages	that	    'punctuation cmavo'.  In the "Guidelines for Understanding
justify	gismu assignment.  The first two are further jus-   Unfamiliar Lojban Text" on page 6, you start with "Put
tified by having separate roots	in most	languages.  The	    brackets around each sentence in the text."	 Capitalizing
second pair is further justified by analogy with "ckamu",   ".I" would do the same thing - though just putting two
as the 'less than' equivalent of their opposite.	    spaces before the ".i" would probably do just as well.  By
  12.-16.  Lojban has assigned gismu to	the major grains    the	same logic, we might capitalize	the following:
and staples of the world, and especially those of the 6
source languages.  Various animals, plants, metals, and	    "Ni'o", "Lu", "Li'u", "Zo",	"To", "Toi", "Sei", "Se'u",
substances common enough in various cultures to	have been   "Mo", "Ma",
assigned connotations and/or to	be heavily used	in metaphor and	any word following "la"	or "doi".
in their languages have	also been assigned gismu (in
Lojban,	cultural, as opposed to	functional, connotations    Anything in	lexeme COI might optionally be capitalized as
should not be referenced in tanru, unless figurative speech well.  Punctuation exists to help the eye break up the text
is explicitly marked - and even	there should be	avoided	    into meaningful units.  I am suggesting that if punctuation
except in poetic usage).				    may	optionally be capitalized, just	as 'r's	may optionally
  Unfortunately, it has	been pointed out over the last 2    be trilled,	it would improve readability without seriously
years that three major staples not commonly referenced in   affecting audiovisual isomorphism.
English	were omitted from the list.  These are "buckwheat"    Enclosed is a bit	of text	from JL10, before and after ...
which is historically and culturally the staple	grain of
Russia (one of our 'Big	6'), "sorghum" the staple grain	for Bob	responds:  First a bit of history.  I used to
most of	Africa used as animal feed in the U.S.,	and	    capitalize the 'I' at the beginning	of a sentence before
"cassava" which	is the major staple of South America and    the	period was put in.  Nora pointed out, though, that the
part of	Africa,	and the	third most planted crop	after rice  sans-serif typeface	used in	The Loglanist rendered capital
and wheat in the world,	most familiar to Americans as the   'I'	and small 'l' indistinguishable, and that this had
source of tapioca.					    occasionally caused	problems in understanding.
  Considering the importance of	staple foods to	human life,   Shortly thereafter, when work on Lojban got started, the
and their use as ingredients in	a wide variety of foods,    visual pause (period) was proposed,	along with the use of
Bob believes that these	omissions should be remedied.	    capitalization to indicate abnormal	stress.	 The period is
  Two other grains have	been mentioned,	but are	not as	    found at the beginning of every sentence.  I also use a
strongly recommended for gismu.	 A weaker case exists for   double space between sentences as a	convention, though in
"triticale" and	"alfalfa", which are not major grains in    our	current	compressed typeface, this may not be obvious.
any culture.  But these	should be considered for	    For	a long time, periods were seldom found anywhere	else,
completeness of	the set.  In addition, readers familiar	    though as Lojban use has gotten more sophisticated,	the
with other cultures should propose any other basic foods    periods have been multiplying.
that are widely	used outside the U.S. but are not well-	      I	have to	admit a	preference for non-capitalization,
known to Americans.  Because most early	Lojbanists are	    since it means I seldom have to use	the shift key when
English-native Americans, Lojban's image of cultural	    typing - hence fewer typos and inconsistencies.  Typing
neutrality requires that we 'bend over backwards' to avoid  Lojban text	is not easy, because of	its unfamiliarity, and
favoring concepts that are familiar to Americans while	    I am especially worried about Lojban typos,	other errors,
omitting correspondingly important concepts with which we   and	inconsistencies, appearing in the stuff	I produce,
are unfamiliar.						    since people depend	on me for 'good' examples.
							      I	don't, however,	see any	major problem, other than my
From John Hodges, on Readability - In a	phone conversation  own	fumble-fingers and troublesome typefaces, with capitals
with Bob, I said that I	had noticed  that JCB's	Loglan	    on most of the cmavo proposed.  There is the aesthetic
looked a lot more like English text than Lojban	did.  JCB   consideration of having capitalization mean	stress in some
has periods at the ends	of sentences, and capital letters   cases, and not in others; I	find consistency more aes-
at the beginnings, and so forth.  I felt the appearance	of  thetically appealing than a	resemblance to English text.
							    (Note that German capitalizes all nouns, both proper and


improper, without confusion, and American writers do not
capitalize after a colon or semicolon; capitalization is				?ma
clearly	not necessary to recognize sentence structure.)					?mo
  For names, capitalization would be ambiguous,	and lead to			       ?pei
people with vowel initial names	having stress on that first				?xu
vowel.	Thus a certain former US President would be
pronounced /AH,yee,zehn,khau,r./ if written "Aizenxau,r."     Because I've previously used a single question mark be-
instead	of /AI,zehn,khau,r./, resulting	from "AIzenxau,r."  fore a construct to	indicate questionable grammaticality, I
And sometimes the default would	not be capitalized at all,  would have to change that convention (probably to a	double
when penultimate stress	were desired, as in some	    question mark), but	would prefer that to the question mark
pronunciations of the English "Alicia" (Lojban ".alicas.")  at the end of the word.
  As another historical	note, there have been several times   As an alternative	for beginning of sentence or paragraph,
in Loglan history when people have proposed using	    how	about something	totally	new to mark these (making the
punctuation marks as a substitute for cmavo, justified by   period unnecessary - remember that all periods are optional
'readability'.	Thus JCB favors	French quotation marks for  in Lojban, being that they can be inferred from the
his equivalent of "lu" and "li'u" (French quotations, <<    morphology rules.)	A hyphen or equal sign would be	dis-
and >>,	unlike English quotes "	are directional, as re-	    tinctive.
quired for the two separate words).  The list of proposals    Whatever the conventions,	they should be optional, and a
got quite long,	and thus complex, though no clear approval  reader's understanding should not be reduced for not
was given to any of them.				    knowing them.
  I am opposed to such substitution, in	that I think many     Having presented an alternative, let us look at some
people would have trouble learning to speak punctuation	    current text, John's alternative, and the one I've just
marks as words if they aren't made explicit.  Forgetting    proposed.  I'm using a different text than John supplied,
the verbal punctuation,	of course, leads to ambiguity.	(We one	from Athelstan's translation of	Saki which uses	more
do allow symbols instead of words in MEX constructs,	    varied features:
including periods, commas, and colons, as well as numerals.
But in MEX, ALL	of the words are replaced by symbols, not   Current style:
just some.)						      .i fo'e bacru lu la selke'i rirme'i cu roroi krici lenu
  Having stated	this, as an alternative	to John's proposal, ko'a ba xruti ko'a ca lo ba	djedi  .i ko'a noi se kansa le
I would	suggest	using the punctuation marks in addition	to  cmalu je bunre pangerku poi	ke'a se	cirko fa'u lenu	ke'a
the words to enhance readability.			    kansa ko'a cu dzukla levi nenri fo leva canko ta'i le purci
  Specifically:						    po ko'a  .i	la'edi'u cu krinu lenu le canko	cu kalri ranji
- "zo" and "zoi" would use individual and paired quotes,    fi ro le vanci pagbu pe ze'o le ctebixtei
respectively:						      .i la selke'i je selnei rirme'i goi ko'u puta'e tavla mi
							    lesu'u cliva ne pu'e lenu ge leko'u	speni goi ko'e cu kansa
			  zo "mi			    ponse leko'e blabi je jacnalgre gackosta noi ke'a dandu
	   zoi .kuot."	non-Lojban text	".kuot.		    leko'e birka gi la ranis. po'u leko'u citrai bruna goi ko'i
							    cu sanga lu	doi brtis. mu'i	ma do plipe li'u noi roroi se
(Athelstan devised the 'name' .kuot. as	an obvious mnemonic sanga semu'i lenu zdifanza ko'u ku mu'i lenu ko'u xusra
for delimited quotes.  Any single Lojban word can be used   lenu le nunsanga cu	fanza ko'u  .i sei ko djuno be la'edei
as the delimiter.)					    so'uroiku ca lei bifcau je smaji vanci poi ke'a simsa ti
							    ko'u mi piso'aroi pencauji'i lenu ro ko'a ba dzugre	leva
- regular quotation would use French quote marks:	    canko li'u

		     <<lu .... li'u>>			    John's proposal:
							      .I fo'e bacru Lu la Selke'i rirme'i cu roroi krici lenu
- parenthesis of various types would use the parenthesis    ko'a ba xruti ko'a ca lo ba	djedi  .I ko'a noi se kansa le
marks:							    cmalu je bunre pangerku poi	ke'a se	cirko fa'u lenu	ke'a
							    kansa ko'a cu dzukla levi nenri fo leva canko ta'i le purci
(sei...) if the	"se'u" is elided or			    po ko'a  .I	la'edi'u cu krinu lenu le canko	cu kalri ranji
('u) if	it isn't				    fi ro le vanci pagbu pe ze'o le ctebixtei
(to...toi)						      .I la Selke'i je selnei rirme'i goi ko'u puta'e tavla mi
etc.							    lesu'u cliva ne pu'e lenu ge leko'u	speni goi ko'e cu kansa
							    ponse leko'e blabi je jacnalgre gackosta noi ke'a dandu
- "ma",	"mo" and other question	words would be marked with  leko'e birka gi la Ranis. po'u leko'u citrai bruna goi ko'i
a question mark, which I would prefer before the word to    cu sanga Lu	doi Brtis. mu'i	Ma do plipe Li'u noi roroi se
help remind English speakers that Lojban differs from	    sanga semu'i lenu zdifanza ko'u ku mu'i lenu ko'u xusra
English	in not requiring a rising tone of voice	to express  lenu le nunsanga cu	fanza ko'u  .I Sei ko djuno be la'edei
a question, and	to make	it less	likely that an unnatural    so'uroiku ca lei bifcau je smaji vanci poi ke'a simsa ti
'end-of-sentence' pause	will be	inserted:


ko'u mi	piso'aroi pencauji'i lenu ro ko'a ba dzugre leva    the	language well enough to	easily put "seljitro" back
canko Li'u						    together if	it is split over two lines.)  This would
							    resolve the	problem	Jamie points out. As for explicitly
Bob's alternative:					    marking the	stress in such a split word - this is already
  =i fo'e bacru	<<lu la	selke'i	rirme'i	cu roroi krici lenu legal in any word, although	only in	marking	abnormal stress
ko'a ba	xruti ko'a ca lo ba djedi  =i ko'a noi se kansa	le  in names has it been found useful enough to	justify	the
cmalu je bunre pangerku	poi ke'a se cirko fa'u lenu ke'a    jarring appearance of capital letters in the middle	of a
kansa ko'a cu dzukla levi nenri	fo leva	canko ta'i le purci word.
po ko'a	 =i la'edi'u cu	krinu lenu le canko cu kalri ranji    As for hyphenation at the	end of lines, another
fi ro le vanci pagbu pe	ze'o le	ctebixtei		    alternative	is the use of underscore.  I recently received
  =i la	selke'i	je selnei rirme'i goi ko'u puta'e tavla	mi  a letter from Italy	(in English, but presumably using
lesu'u cliva ne	pu'e lenu ge leko'u speni goi ko'e cu kansa Italian conventions), where	underscore was used for
ponse leko'e blabi je jacnalgre	gackosta noi ke'a dandu	    'hyphenation', and there was no particular attempt to break
leko'e birka gi	la ranis. po'u leko'u citrai bruna goi ko'i words at syllable boundaries.  Whether this	is desirable
cu sanga <<lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do plipe li'u>> noi roroi  for	Lojban or not, clearly the English model is not
se sanga semu'i	lenu zdifanza ko'u ku mu'i lenu	ko'u xusra  universal.
lenu le	nunsanga cu fanza ko'u	=i (sei	ko djuno be
la'edei) so'uroiku ca lei bifcau je smaji vanci	poi ke'a    John Hodges	on Lojban representation of Time of Day:  [This
simsa ti ko'u mi piso'aroi pencauji'i lenu ro ko'a ba	    discussion is based	on material in draft lesson 3 on
dzugre leva canko li'u>>				    telling times and dates, and may not be too	understandable
							    if you haven't read	that lesson.  John first wrote it last
  Other	alternatives are possible.  What do our	readers	    summer while the Blacksburg	class was conducted, and re-
think?							    cently updated it for LogFest consideration.  Karen	Stein
							    also contributed to	this proposal, and wrote on slightly
Jamie Bechtel raises an	issue on conventions and	    different aspects, but John	summarizes the issues well
terminology which may be related to the	above:		    enough to enable people to prepare for LogFest discus-
  How do you hyphenate in Lojban if the	hyphen is used to
show a buffer vowel?  Can you use capitalization to	    John: Re. telling time:  Your "modified base-12" system was
indicate that a	word has been cut in half?  For	example:    not	popular	[with the Blacksburg class].  One problem is
						  ...selji- that it is not truly base 12, since	it contains "gai",
tro ...							    which is the digit for "12"	in a base larger than 12.  "12"
							    in base 12 would be	"li pano".  Your names for the hours go
would be written:					    from "la gaicac." to "la papacac." without any "la
						  ...selJI- panocac."  When we hear "la	pacicac." how are we to	know
tro ...							    what base it is in?	 On the	face of	it, it could be	any
							    base larger	than 3.	 Given the global use of base-10, even
Bob responds:  I'm hoping there	is no terminology problem   for	the numbers of 12-and-24-hour clocks, I	think it would
here, so let me	be sure, and remind readers as well.	    be better to go with the crowd on this one.	 Long Live La
  Hyphen - in Lojban, the letter 'y', or the vocalic 'r' or Recicac. (la daucac. lir. and la gaicac. lec. and their kin
'n' between rafsi used to solve	junction problems in lujvo- are	OK but I think are likely to be	used only on flowery
making caused either by	impermissible consonant	clusters,   and	formal occasions, the ones where we use	Roman numerals
or a possibility of the	lujvo breaking up into two smaller  today.)
  There	is also	a 'hyphen symbol': "-".	 This has no formal Bob:  Based	on this	argument, it is	clear that a base-12
purpose	in Lojban, though I may	have suggested it as a	    clock system should	go from	0 to B (B is the base 12 digit
possible way to	explicitly show	pronunciation of a	    for	'1110'), and not from 1	to C as	proposed in the	draft
'buffering sound' between consonants that a speaker has	    lesson.  The 24-hour clock system should go	either from 0
trouble	pronouncing together.				    to 23, or from 00 to 1B, base-12, which I strongly prefer.
  'Buffer' is used for the 'consonantal	buffer',	      The problem of knowing what base it is exists in English
represented by the apostrophe, and for the buffering sound  as well, but the difference	between	12-hour	and 24-hour
between	consonants just	mentioned.  The	latter sound has no clocks goes	unnoticed, since people	generally use the time
letteral representation	in Lojban, since it is by	    form that others expect.  You also have to know what time
definition "some vowel sound not otherwise found in Lojban" zone is referenced.	 I sure	have been confused at times
(usually for English speakers the sound	of 'i' in English   when someone has responded to "What	time is	it?" in
"bit").							    Greenwich time.  The answer	is convention.	If people use
  It is	my belief that visual representation of	buffers	    one	standard all the time they won't get confused.	When
should be rare,	and a word in which they are explicitly	    they don't use one standard, you need to flag base and time
used should never be split across lines	(I currently try to zone, just as we flag them in English.  (Whenever I	call
avoid hyphenating Lojban words at all, because no one reads someone in another time zone and leave a message on	their


recorder as to what time I called, I state 'your time' to     is Day-of-week/Day-of Month/Month	    7:03:f
indicate the time zone.	 Otherwise the time I give would be   =Saturday	the Third of November
  As for 'going	with the crowd', which way does	the crowd   2 digits:1 digit:2 digits (4 digits	optional)
go?.  Remember that in English we effectively use a base-12   is Day-of-Month/Month/Year02:2:92
system for numbers verbally - we say "twelve o'clock", not	     =Ground Hog's Day,	1992
"one-two o'clock", or "twoteen o'clock"	(this may not al-
ways be	true for 24-hour clock users, who sometimes say			     08:56:3:09:5:89
"one-two-hundred" for "12 noon", which is clearly wrong).   =Eight-fifty-six A.M. Tuesday the 9th of May, 1989
Only in	numerical form do we use base-10 numbers, and then
you can't do base-10 arithmetic	with them.  If we drop	    3 digits:2 or 4 digits
base-10	completely, as per the preferred form in the draft    is day-of-year/year     001:95	    =New Year's	Day
textbook, there	is no confusion	as you've indicated,	      1995
arithmetic is straightforward, and there is no effective
difference between the 12-hour clock and the 24-hour clock.		      08:56:3:129:89
If this	is 'bucking the	flow', it is only being	simple and		       Clear enough.
logical, as with the rest of the language.
							    Bob:  Yes, weeks of	months normal include partial weeks.
John: Re. telling the date:  The system	you present on page We don't often express such	dates in numerical form, as is
3-19 seems to break down because months	typically begin	in  possible in	Lojban,	but we do count	and use	them.  Anyone
the middle of a	week.  What do you do with the fractional   who	ever has meetings on the '4th Tuesday of every month'
week at	the beginning?	Is it the first	week of	the month?  knows to count all Tuesdays, and the week of month conven-
e.g. 1 August 1989 is a	Tuesday; is it the first day of	the tion was added to deal with	such problems.	I will agree
first week of the month?  You give an example 2:2:9:5:1989, that the existing proposal is cumbersome and confusing,
"the 2nd day (Monday) of the 2nd week, (which is the 9th),  though.  I don't like some aspects of John's specific pro-
of the 5th month (May) of 1989".  If you look, 9 May 1989   posal, though.
was a Tuesday.	(It could be worse.  1 July 1989 was a	    - After the	year 2000, it will not be clear	for many years
Saturday.  How do people count "weeks of the month"	    whether two	digits are a year, a month, or a day, so this
nowadays anyway?  When a "month" was the time between one   convention is doomed during	our most critical growth
New Moon and the next, it was easy; see	which quarter the   period.  I think we	should break with English a decade
moon was in.  It might give you	some 8-day weeks, but what  early.
the hey.)  I believe people say	"the third Tuesday" rather  - Most speakers will dislike leading zeroes	- this is
then "Tuesday of the third week."			    'bucking the system' as much as my base 12 proposal, only
  I suggest not	attempting to count "weeks of the month" at more complex, because there	are a lot of patterns to
all.  3:9:5:1989, a set	of four	numbers, is easier to hear  remember.  Unlike with time, a given person	will have uses
than a set of five.  (Karen said five was too long a	    for	all of these forms at some time, and cannot limit him-
string.)  3:9:5	and 9:5:1989 would usually be understood.   self/herself to just one.
Sets of	two still leave	you guessing between day-of-	      I	will suggest a skeleton	counter-proposal for
week/day-of-month and day-of-month/month.  A bare set of    consideration.  Come up with a canonical form, leaving out
two numbers could also be a time of day.  You mention this  the	week-of-month element.
problem	on page	3-15 and offer possible	approaches but set
no standard.						    Try:   Day-of-Week:Day-of-Month:Month:Year
  HEY, I'VE GOT	IT!  Declare a convention that:
							    If less than 4 terms are given, the	stated ones are	the
2 digits:2 digits					    leftmost of	this set.  You can omit	one of the early terms
  is a time		   08:56			    leaving the	colon "pi'e".  The behind.  Special cases of
							    week-of-month and day-of-year would	be inserted at any
1 digit:2 digits					    logical place when desired,	but must be marked with	a lerfu
  is a Day-of-week/Day-of-month4:06			    "jy." for weekday (jeftu djedi) or "ny." for day-of-year
  =Wednesday the Sixth (default	assumption)		    (nanca).  If we use	"ny.", it should replace both the day-
  This may be overridden if the	two digits are obviously a  of-month and month fields in the canonical form, since it
  year			    5:89			    is month independence that is the intent of	the usage; this
		      =May, 1989			    prevents us	from having to express two useless colons every
							    time.  I'll	also add "dy." to stand	for an arbitrary non-
2 digits:1 digit					    year-based Julian Day (by whatever convention - like time
  is Day-of-month/Month,				    zones, you need to know the	convention in use to interpret
using d,f,g for	dau, fei, gai05:9			    the	date.  Astronomers use one standard, and various
	     =Fifth of September			    businesses and military projects each use their own
							    separate one; the lerfu stands either for "djedi" or
1 digit:2 digits:1 digit				    "djulien.")


John: Postscript 4/27/1990... looking at this nine months   The	arithmetic of memorization:
later, I would support giving names to the days	of the	    Lojban: 300	cmavo, 1000 difficult gismu, 2000 easy rafsi
week, so that they can be abbreviated with letters instead  Image language: 300	cmavo, an easy 1000 gismu.
of digits.   Padjed. redjed. cidjed. vodjed. mudjed.
xadjed.	zedjed.... so the long string of digits	above is      These languages would be immediately translatable	into
broken by a lerfu in the middle, e.g.,			    each other and would be stepping stones, allowing the
							    students to	get more quickly to the	point where they can
16:37:x:27:4:90		 4:37 P.M. Friday 27 April 1990	    think in the language, the next step being the learning of
							    the	Lojban predicates.  The	easier entry should allow many
This would be easier to	read than a string of six digits,   more people	to get involved	in Lojban's logical structure,
and would reduce confusion over	which digit meant what.	    and	the goal would be to rapidly swell the number of people
							    interested in Lojban/Loglan.  A major goal of Lojban should
Bob:  This would be grammatical	- you can have a bare lerfu be to build	up public awareness of the language and	in-
in a numeral position, but would be difficult to use.	    creasing the number	of people involved in Lojban (and minor
Remember that in even a	moderately noisy environment, lerfu variants).
are nearly indistinguishable, so we can't use them too	      Technology continues to make communication around	the
heavily	in verbal communications (their	main purpose is	for world easier.  A person with a PC or MAC on	a computer
spelling, which	is slow	and enunciated,	and for	numerical   network types out a	message	to a correspondent and it is
variables, which tends to be few in number or are	    received around the	world, sometimes with a	delay of a day
subscripted - John Cowan has noted the need for	long-name   but	often in seconds.  Such	ease of	communications with an
forms of the ALPHA-BRAVO-CHARLIE genre for noisy environ-   electronic interface creates opportunities.
ments, and names couldn't be used inside of a numeral	      Automatic	computer translation between languages does not
string.)  Requiring a difficult	to distinguish day-of-week  appear feasible in the foreseeable future.	One particular
letter every time you want to state the	day-of-week seems   problem is that words in the source	language have many
to be asking for resolution difficulties.  I still prefer   meanings and the speakers and listeners are	able to	select
my null:dayofmonth... idea.				    one	from the context.  Another problem is that the source
  If you want to use time/date combinations, you need to    language and the target language have completely different
label the final	position of the	time, or you can't tell	    structures.	 Undoubtedly the occasional ambiguity of the
whether	it is minutes, seconds,	etc.  You could	use "t."    grammars creates additional	problems.
for "tcika".  I	think combined date/times will be used only   Suppose a	group decided to establish a family of
in specialized circumstances, just like	the other two con-  languages designed so that translation between them	would
ventions I've proposed that require lerfu, and thus won't   be easy.  What would that family look like.	 We are	going
cause confusion.  The four lerfu I've proposed are probably to call the	version	for speakers of	English	"Logenglish"
close to a maximally diverse phonetic set, which is	    and	other versions might be	Logmandarin, Logportugese, etc.
convenient for the noisy environment problem, though I	    We will call these languages "images" or "image languages"
think varying position of the lerfu-label within the	    since they are exact images	of the original.  The
various	colons will provide redundancy for noisy environ-   vocabularies of Logenglish would be	selected based on
ment resolution.					    English in order to	ease the learning problem.  On the
							    other hand the words should	not be English words since
							    their grammatical use and exact meanings would be different
	       Lojban as a Language Template		    and	the user should	not be lulled into thinking that he or
	    by James A.	Yorke and Celso	Grebogi		    she	was using a trivial variant of English.	 (A problem
							    with the image language approach is	that the student might
  Abstract:  We	propose	creating a series of languages	    confuse what is a legal Logenglish predicate word and what
using Lojban as	a template.  These "image" languages would  is not, but	when eventually	learning the full language, it
be identical to	Lojban except that the predicate words	    is unlikely	that he/she would confuse Logenglish words with
would be adapted so as to be based on the language of the   Lojban, because if the word	is recognizably	like English,
target population.  For	each and every predicate in Lojban  it is almost certainly not Lojban.)	The vocabularies of
there would be exactly one predicate in	the image language, other image	languages would	be based on the	native
and it would have exactly the same meaning as in Lojban.    language.  In principal anyone could create	his or her own
These "image languages"	would be trivially translated into  set	of words to correspond to the Lojban.  However,	it is
each other trivially by	substitution.  Continued work on    likely that	a group	such as	a high school class would speak
Lojban would of	course be critical since Loglan	is the	    the	language to one	another	and so would have to have a
template.  No development work would be	carried	out for	the single image.
image languages.  All official changes in Lojban would by     The initial goal would be	have the structures of
implication be immediately adapted to the derivative	    Logenglish (i.e., Logical English) and Logportugese	so
languages.  The	advantages would be to minimize	memory of   similar that a computer could translate from one to	the
those parts of the language which do not carry structure,   other trivially so that a Logenglish message typed into one
allowing concentration on grammar and short words.	    terminal could be translated into a	universal form by the


terminal and transmitted and the receiving terminal could     The following predicates indicate	how one	might proceed,
virtually instantly translate the universal form into	    but	each image language should have	rules of thumb
Logportugese or	Logswahili.  The sender	would not have any  describing how it handles certain situations such as how to
reason to know the dialect of the receiver.		    expand a single syllable word in English into a two
  A second more	distant	goal would be to have these	    syllable predicate,	from "bulb" to "bulbu" and "grow" into
languages created so that when spoken they would be easily  "groro" for	example.  Here we need to create a final vowel
parsed into words by computer so that when a sentence in    since the original words have only one and we have chosen
Loghindi was spoken into a computer controlled telephone,   to repeat the existing vowel.  We suggest that when
the computer would translate the sounds	into letters and    possible, Logenglish should	stay close to the spelling of
words of the universal language	and transmit the universal  English (within the	constraints of Lojban's	rules for C/V
form, which would then be transmitted to the listener after patterns) even when	the pronunciation changes
being transformed into Logspanish of Lognavaho or whatever  significantly.  In Logenglish, all letters are pronounced
was needed.  If	the family of languages	had a one to one    including a	final "e".
correspondence between words and the word ordering was the    Hence:
same, the spoken words could be	transmitted word by word			     "cattle"
(with electronic indicators of tone and	pitch and				      becomes
inflection and timing) and the listener	would here those			     "catle".
words translated into his or her own variant as	they were
spoken by the speaker, word by word.					 "The pretty little girls school"
  Assuming these goals were set	for a family of	languages,			    might become
then what would	the design look	like.  The universal form		   "le preti litle girli skolo"
would be a template.  Words would have meanings	that would
be invariant for all the dialects.  We would like to	      Of course	the Lojban grammar is unambiguous so that
suggest	that Lojban is an excellent candidate for such a    "preti" modifies "litle", which modifies "girli" which
template.  The image languages would not have to have the   modifies "skolo".  We have retained	the short word "le"
same set of letters and	sounds as in Lojban but	predicates  (from Lojban), since we believe that little	would be gained
should have the	Lojban prescribed pattern of vowels and	    in trying to get little words that correspond to English.
consonants, (e.g.  basic predicates of the form	CCVCV or    In fact the	little words represent structures that are
CCVCV).	 In our	efforts	here, we have assumed the	    quite different from English.  In learning short words, the
permissible vowels are the same	as for Lojban and have the  student would be putting the effort	into learning aspects
same pronunciation.  Such a choice makes it easier to use   of the grammar that	are fundamentally different from
the image language as a	stepping stone in acquiring Lojban. his/her native language.  The effort in learning the image
The image languages should be designed to maximize the	    language would make	it easier to progress to Lojban, having
ability	to learn the vocabularies.  The	truly important	    already learned the	grammar	and short words.
constraint is that there must be a clear one-to-one	      In choosing words	for the	image languages, we have chosen
correspondence between words, including	compound predi-	    to keep the	spelling as similar as possible	to the natural
cates.	Hence the universal language (Lojban) would	    language, keeping in mind the pronunciation	would probably
continue to be developed and each addition or modification  be following Lojban	rules.	That would emphasize to	the
would be reflected in the image	languages.		    student that this is not his/her native language.  Notice
  For the beginner, the	terminal might be quite	helpful,    in any case	the spellings in the image language are	rarely
with an	on-line	dictionary suggesting Logenglish	    the	same as	for the	natural	language.
translations of	English	words, and it could parse the
sentences and warn of ungrammatical constructions that		SAMPLE ELEMENTARY PREDICATE WORDS (=gismu IN LOJBAN)
violate	the rules of Lojban.  Such programs would have to
created.  Some,	such as	the parser, would be the same for     The words	below are from the beginning of	the "baselined
all the	languages, since it could be executed after the	    gismu list"	and hence all begin with 'b' since gismu begin
translation into Lojban.  The basic translation	program	    with consonants.  The table	illustrates that many gismu can
would just substitute words from one language to the other, be created in image	languages with spellings recognizable
based on a list	of pairs it has	in memory.  It would be	    to a speaker of the	language.  Others like "badna"
much simpler than the existing parsing programs.	    ("banana") are not easy to improve on.  The	Logmandarin
  The creation of Lojban from Loglan (a	registered	    words were created with the	assistance of M.-Z. Ding and
trademark of Dr. J. C. Brown) has demonstrated how the	    Y.-C. Lai.
words can be changed, and how harmless it is to	substitute    Parentheses show the word	or phrase being	approximated.
new spellings.	Lojban has gone	much further in	continuing
the development	of the language.  No such development would Lojban     Log-   Logpor- Log-     Log-
be possible for	the image languages since it is	critical	english	      tuguese spanish  mandarin
that they be exact template projections	of Lojban in order  ------     -------	      -------  -------	 --------
to guarantee trivial translation between the image	    bundle/package containing ...
languages.						    bakfu      pakje  fardo   bulto    bogva
								       (fardo)	      (bulto)  (bogwa)


							    chalk in form of ... from source of	...
cow/cattle/ox/beef					    bakri      tcaka  jitsi   tizja    fenbi
bakni	   catle  gadjo	  gnado	   nuxnu			       (giz)  (tiza)  (fenbi)
	   (gado) (ganado)    *(female
			  cow)				    bucket
							    baktu      bukte  balde   balde    tongo
								       (balde)	      (balde)  (tong)

							    plant bulb of species ...
							    balji      bulbu  bulbo   bulbo    falgi
								       (bulbo)	      (bulbo)  (hui gin)

							    balni      balko  balko   balko    yangta
								       (balcao)	      (balcon) (yan tai)

							    blade of ...
							    balre      blade  filjo   filjo    davpi
								       (fio)  (filo)  (dao pi)

							    future of ...
							    balvi      futre  futro   futro    junla
								       (futuro)	      (futuro) (jung la)

							    bandu      prote  prote   prote    bavfu
								       (proteger) (proteger)   (bao hu)

							    *"mumnu" is	"female	cow" while "nu"	is non-sexed "bovine"

							      In Logenglish the	letter 'x' could be reserved to
							    indicate where the constructed word	does not correspond to
							    the	English.  Hence	English	"apple"	might be "xaple" in
							    Logenglish.	 We used "tc" to represent "ch"	since the
							    spelling of	"ch" in	English	is "tc"	in Lojban.


							      Since Lojban is the template, it remains critical	to
							    continue development of compound words in Lojban.  While
							    users could	make up	compounds on the fly as	they are
							    encouraged to in Lojban, the only official compound	words
							    in any Log-language	would be those that correspond to those
							    officially sanctioned words	in Lojban.  For	the purpose of
							    minimizing the required memory, we propose that there be
							    only one acceptable	rafsi for each gismu in	derivative lan-
							    guages, namely the fragment	formed by dropping the final
							    vowel.  To go from a compound Lojban word to the corre-
							    sponding word a derivative language, break the compound
							    into rafsi,	e.g., R1 R2 R3,	and then list the corresponding
							    predicates,	P1 P2 P3, and translate	them into the
							    derivative language, yielding D1 D2	D3, cut	the final
							    vowels off D1 and D2 and put the result together, as one
							    would in Lojban, adding hyphen 'y' as required [ed.: which
							    is between each pair of rafsi, as the proposal is stated -
							    the	canonical 4-letter form	is best	described as replacing
							    the	final vowel by a 'y'].
							      The paucity of fragments will make pronunciation a bit
							    more awkward but it	will drastically cut the list of items


to memorize.  The objective here is to minimize	the	      It would seem wise to limit those	criticisms of image
memorization of	parts of the language that do not	    languages that are made on the grounds that	the similarity
correspond to really new grammatical structures.	    to native languages	would cause confusion, since it	is
  By providing the beginner with predicates that have a	    often claimed that Lojban and Loglan and both highly
rather recognizable spelling, we would making easy to get   recognizable.  While those two are clearly less
into the first level of	the language.  And it would be easy recognizable to the	student, the requirements of testing
for people of every language group.  If	someone	wanted to   Sapir-Whorf	suggests that any similarity is	scientifically
make Lojban available in Tibet,	they would undertaking a    problematical.
major project, since they would	have to	produce		      We would like to thank Bob LeChevalier for his comments
instructional material in the image language.  It would	a   which have helped us clarify the issues.
relatively easy	extra step to create a translation list	of
1000 basic predicates.					    Bob: I'll try to respond with brief	summaries of some
  While	many people will tell us it is not difficult to	    points that	I've raised in objection in the	comments they
learn the almost 1000 gismu, apparently	not many have in    mentioned (my actual responses to their drafts were	several
fact mastered all the gismu and	the short words	including   pages long).  First	a general objection, though:
the digits and so on.  There is	another	thousand plus rafsi   The basic	assumption behind this proposal	is that
to memorize in Lojban, while all of the	rafsi would be	    memorizing all of the Lojban cmavo,	gismu, and rafsi is
automatic in the image languages.			    necessary to get "into the first level of the language", in
							    their words.  It isn't so.	For the	"first level" we would
		      FINAL THOUGHTS			    never recommend anyone learn other than the	long-form
							    rafsi, which are made the same way as in their proposal.
  Lojban helps us understand the nature	of thought and the  Also, to learn the basic grammatical structure required to
nature of language.  It	is a wonderful opportunity to	    'think in the language', you don't need more than several
explore	these ideas that are so	fundamental to the nature   dozen gismu.
of human beings, and we	feel Lojban should be of interest     However, conversation and	letter writing are not 'first-
to an immense audience for this	reason.			    level' skills.  Nor	would learning the basic structures or
  The first question about the usability Lojban	is whether  even a thousand gismu allow	you to 'think in the language'
people can think in the	language.  Users would really like  for	real.  You can only get	a taste	of the experience until
to know	what thinking in Lojban	is like.  We suspect that   you	can remember or	conjure	up words for the entire	variety
limited	vocabularies prevent most people interested in the  of human experience	that you wish to deal with; the	average
language from ever finding out and the image language idea  English speaker has	a vocabulary between 20000 and 100000
should allow people to expand their vocabularies rapidly.   words.  You	can 'think' in a foreign language with a frac-
Logenglish and Logportugese and	other image languages could tion of those numbers, but it isn't	a tiny fraction.  For
help people find out.  When people learn something, they    thinking, conversing, or writing in	a new language,	it
like a learning	curve that gets	them to	a operational level isn't practical to 'look up	in the dictionary' to find
quickly.  (It will take	some time to see if it is possible  suggested Logenglish words for your	English	words, even
to restrict each word to a single meaning).		    when it would be a straight	word for word substitution -
  The learning curve should allow them to progress	    which it usually wouldn't be.
incrementally, so that learning	a bit more allows them to     Thus we have two conflicting goals.  If you want the
do a bit more.	Currently Lojban presents a huge memory	    'quick gratification' of a survey of the grammar - enough
requirement that has little to do with the required	    to learn about the perils of English grammar and the nature
learning of the	grammar.  If people want to learn to speak  of language, you can use Logenglish	and the	other images,
the language, we should	make it	as easy	as possible, (and   or you could just as easily	use Lojban with	real English
in particular we should	not burden them	with technical	    'predicates' - the specific	meanings of the	words is not as
terms like "bridi", "valsi", "brivla", "gismu",	"kunbri"    important for such a purpose, and English speakers could
(obsolete), "cmavo", "glico", "lujvo", "rafsi",	"tanru",    get	used to	a pidgin that did not distinguish parts	of
"selbri", and undoubtedly others).			    speech easier than they could memorize any set of words
  By making relatively easy to get fluent in a dialect of   well enough	to communicate.
Lojban,	we could get a larger number of	people who could      But if you want to use Lojban (or	a relative) as a
experience the mind-bending aspects of Lojban (as opposed   language, for the purposes of a language, you will need to
to the purely painful aspects).	 By having people	    work quite a bit harder, and the advantages	of an
communicating between Logenglish and Logmandarin, we could  intermediate image language	are lost.
rapidly	see what the differences are in	the way	the
language is used.  We could more rapidly demonstrate that   Specific (and minor	points):
there is something to test.  We	would greatly increase the    1. Many of the specific proposed image words do not meet
number of candidates who might want to take the	next step   the	Lojban rules for permissible initials an medials.
of learning the	Lojban predicate vocabulary.		    Making these lists up will not be trivial.	But if someone
  By having an array of	these image languages, we would	    wants to volunteer,	and then get a few people to volunteer
keep the supremacy of Lojban clear.			    learning the words to try an image language	experiment,
							    fine.  But I doubt if we can justify any major effort by la


lojbangirz. as an organization along these lines in the	    one	proposal for hyphenating le'avla), or prefixed with a
near future.						    hyphen so they don't get read as Lojban words.  Nora's
  2. Teaching to people	in Tibet will still require writing Loglan translator involved a step something	like this, but
a textbook and dictionary in Tibetan, whether image	    added standard suffixes to convert between nouns, verbs,
languages are used or not.  I therefore	don't see any	    and	adjectives.
savings	due to image languages;	you actually need to do
more work, since you additionally have to invent new gismu    Now, how many of the Logenglish substitutes can you
and redo all the Lojban	words in the books to fit the new   identify without going to the third	passage?  Do any of the
image.							    substitutions help you recognize the meaning of the	passage
  3.  People who know only the image languages can talk	    more easily?  Anyone who wishes is welcome to try doing
only to	others who know	the same image,	unless they are	    better at coming up	with good Logenglish words for each
computer aided.	 Computers are not yet sufficiently	    gismu in the passage.
ubiquitous, especially outside the U. S., to make
intercultural computer communication anything but a toy	of  a.:
the elite.						      .I fo'e xutra <<lu la selpitxi parnysiste	cu roroi belvi
  4.  There is a reference objecting to	the Lojban	    lenu ko'a ba retru ko'a ca lo ba daxta  .I ko'a noi	se
terminology we use in teaching the grammar, and	Dr. Yorke   xacpo le smala je bronu spanydogvo poi ke'a	se losxe fa'u
has proposed using metaphorical	English	instead	(such as    lenu ke'a xacpo ko'a cu valkycomxo levi xinsi fo leva vindo
"scene"	for "bridi", "script" for "selbri", and	"role" for  ta'i le pasta po ko'a  .I la'edi'u cu resno	lenu le	vindo
"sumti").  I personally	think more people would	be confused cu xopne conti fi ro le xevne parta	pe ze'o	le
by this, since the might not see the analogy, but we can    nigvybetnytimxe
mention	such analogies in the textbook as alternative	      .I la selpitxi je	selxinsi parnysista goi	ko'u puta'e
teaching aids, if readers think	they help (can readers	    talka mi lesu'u levza ne pu'e lenu ge leko'u sposu goi ko'e
determine the analogy without further explanation - does it cu xacpo xonxu leko'e xitxe	je vatrynalpatru covrycotxo noi
clear anything up for your understanding?).  It	is	    ke'a xanga leko'e xarma gi la ranis. po'u leko'u xongysupre
certainly not Lojbanic to use figurative metaphors like	    brote goi ko'i cu singi <<lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do lipxi
these -	Lojban tanru are as analytic as	pragmatically	    li'u>> noi roroi se	singi semu'i lenu xamzyxanxo ko'u ku
possible.						    mu'i lenu ko'u xasre lenu le nunsingi cu xanxo ko'u	 .I sei
  5.  Regarding	recognition of Logenglish apart	from	    ko konvo be	la'edei	so'uroiku ca lei brezyvitxo je silna
Lojban,	they say:  "If a word is recognizably like English, xevne poi ke'a simli ti ko'u mi piso'aroi tinkyvitxyxopni
it is almost certainly not Lojban".  Truly a cynical	    lenu ro ko'a ba valkypatru leva vindo li'u>>
observation.  Many Lojban words	remind people of English
words, but not always the one closest to their meaning.	    b.:
  6.  The only way to talk intelligently about this	      .I fo'e speka <<lu la selpitli parnysista	cu roroi belvi
proposal is with an example involving more than	just	    lenu ko'a ba retru ko'a ca lo ba dande  .I ko'a noi	se
isolated words.	 I'll use the same Saki	excerpt	used for    copni le smalu je brona spanydogji poi ke'a	se losna fa'u
examining John Hodges writing convention proposals.  The    lenu ke'a copni ko'a cu valkycomgo levi ninsi fo leva vindo
following are three versions of	the same passage, using	    ta'i le pasta po ko'a  .I la'edi'u cu justi	lenu le	vindo
alternatives forms for the Logenglish brivla (and some of   cu kopne conti fi ro le nevne parta	pe ze'o	le
my readability proposals from that earlier text).	    nignybetnytimne
  a. the text using Logenglish words derived as	closely	as    .I la selpitli je	selninsi parnysista goi	ko'u puta'e
I can guess to the algorithm suggested (which was loosely   talka mi lesu'u levna ne pu'e lenu ge leko'u sposa goi ko'e
stated,	and not	followed exactly in all	of the sample	    cu copni ponsu leko'e blino	je vatrynaltrugo covrycotsa noi
words),	including using	'x' where English words	do not have ke'a xanga leko'e barma gi la ranis. po'u leko'u zungymosta
a necessary consonant (or a 'v'	'z' or 't' if 'x' cannot be brote goi ko'i cu singe <<lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do jumpa
used and a voiced or unvoiced consonant	is needed), reusing li'u>> noi roroi se	singe semu'i lenu muzdyrirta ko'u ku
the vowel if the English doesn't have two, and otherwise    mu'i lenu ko'u serta lenu le nunsinge cu rirta ko'u	 .I sei
stressing visual recognition; I'll also	use only the key    ko konvo be	la'edei	so'uroiku ca lei brizyvitno je silna
word to	maximize the reader's chances of guessing.	    nevne poi ke'a simla ti ko'u mi piso'aroi tinkyvitnynopni
  b. a variant version,	still maximizing visual	recognition lenu ro ko'a ba valkytrugo leva vindo li'u>>
- but trying to	devise less structured ways to deal with
recognition problems of	each word.  In some cases, I use a  c.:
synonym	of the key word.				      .I fo'e -utter <<lu la sel-pity -parent-sister cu	roroi
(In neither a. nor b. did I check carefully for	words that  -believe lenu ko'a ba -return ko'a ca lo ba	-day  .I ko'a
would conflict if final	vowels are dropped.  In	a.,	    noi	se -accompany le -small	je -brown -spanish-dog poi ke'a
however, I had to use "accompany" instead of "with" for	    se -lose fa'u lenu ke'a -accompany ko'a cu -walk-go	levi
"kansa"	in order to get	a non-conflicting word without	    -in	fo leva	-window	ta'i le	-past po ko'a  .I la'edi'u cu
great gymnastics.)					    -reason lenu le -window cu -open -continue fi ro le
  c. using English words, tied together	with a visible	    -evening -part pe ze'o le -night-between-time
hyphen which is	to be pronounced as /yuh/ (this	syllable is


  .I la	sel-pity je sel-in -parent-sister goi ko'u puta'e   merged, the	Danes learned English easily, but not the de-
-talk mi lesu'u	-leave ne pu'e lenu ge leko'u -married goi  clensions.	The same thing happened	when the Normans
ko'e cu	-accompany -possess leko'e -white je -water-nal-    conquered England -	they generally didn't learn English, so
pass_through -cover-coat noi ke'a -hang	leko'e -arm gi la   English borrowed heavily from Norman French.  But French
ranis. po'u leko'u -young-superlative -brother goi ko'i	cu  also had different,	incompatible declensions, and differ-
-sing <<lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do -leap li'u>> noi roroi	se  ences in gender, thus reinforcing the confusion when
-sing semu'i lenu -amusing-annoy ko'u ku mu'i lenu ko'u	    English speakers learned French.  These two	languages were
-assert	lenu le	nun-sing cu -annoy ko'u	 .I sei	ko -know be so mutually	incompatible that eventually Anglo-Normans
la'edei	so'uroiku ca lei -breeze-without je -quiet -evening reverted back to English when their	ties to	France
poi ke'a -similar ti ko'u mi piso'aroi -think-without-opine weakened.
lenu ro	ko'a ba	-walk-pass_through leva	-window	li'u>>
							    David: Still, I don't think	thought	is as constrained by
							    language as	might appear.  Poetry struggles	to overcome
	     Letters, Comments,	and Responses		    that limitation; most likely social	factors	constrain
							    thought, like being	burned at the stake for	saying the
		     from David	Morrow			    Earth is a sphere.

  By the way, has anyone tried to train	animals	using	    Bob: I think the Sapir-Whorf constraint, if	it exists, is
Lojban?	 Perhaps it would turn out more	effective then	    of a different nature.  I think that the constraints of
natural	languages for communication maybe with highly	    grammar may	hinder our ability to manipulate concepts that
developed types	like primates or those who are intelligent  are	encoded	into particular	grammatical boxes.  Where the
and very different like	whales.				    hindrance is too severe, we	avoid pursuing those lines of
							    thought unless they	are particularly fruitful and useful in
Bob:  Not really, although I talk to my	cat in Lojban, and  the	short term.  Individuals, such as poets	and geniuses
he sometimes seems to know a few words - but it	may be my   like Einstein, may break through the barriers for one or
tone of	voice or the similarity	to English words that does  two	concepts, but the society as a whole cannot follow in
the trick.  There aren't all that many people working seri- their footsteps.
ously on training primates and dolphins, which are likely
to be the only animals intelligent enough to deal with				from Jamie Bechtel:
grammar	at all.
							      "Nomic" is a game	designed to mimic the way a government
David: Also, it	seems to me that history can show whether   works.  All	the rules of Nomic are subject to change, and
Whorf-Sapir is right, though I'll admit	the evidence is	    the	initial	set of rules for any game of Nomic simply tell
open to	interpretation.	 However, the evidence seems to	    how	to go about changing the rules.	 After a short while of
show that language's effect on thought is not so ironclad.  playing Nomic, the game can	easily be changed to the point
Notice that highly inflected Latin and West Teutonic (ie,   where it is	no longer the same game.  Whether a person is
English) changed during	the Dark Ages to predominantly	    playing by the rules or not, is determined almost entirely
analytical grammars that remain	today.	This might be	    by judgement, which	need not be bound by rules of prece-
ascribed to the	changed	mindset	between	Classical and	    dent.  Any game of Nomic can quickly expand	to include all
Medieval civilizations,	but German in its homeland remained aspects of life.  A	description of Nomic can be found in
inflected, and non-Indo-European languages like	Basque and  the	article	"Nomic:	A Self-Modifying Game Based on
Hungarian (or rather their speakers) all participated in    Reflexivity	in Law"	in the June '82	Scientific American.
Medieval culture.  Further, Modern civilization	differs	    It can also	be found in Metamagical	Themas by Douglas
profoundly from	Medieval and even Renaissance culture	    Hofstadter.
despite	the fact that we could probably	converse with	      A	possible way to	test Sapir-Whorf would be to create an
Chaucer	or Shakespeare.	 Indeed, our civilization probably  artificial "game-culture" and test the influence of	various
resembles Roman	and Hellenistic	civilizations -	at least in languages on its development.  It seems to me that a
attitudes and philosophy - much	more than it does the	    culture can	be thought of as an extremely complex game that
worlds of Alfred or Luther.  Of	course,	we could view the   extends to all aspects of social interaction.  Of course,
attempts to develop artificial languages as a result of	our culture differs from most games in various ways.  Cultures
outlook...						    have little	distinction between the	rules that compose the
							    "games", and the rules of skill (social skill).  The rules
Bob: I read a history of English not long ago.	Researchers of cultural-games are also constantly under	change,
believe	that English inflection	was lost for a much	    (especially	between	individuals).  Also, in	natural
different reason than you propose.  Specifically, England   cultures, it is not	always clear when one is acting	outside
was conquered twice in less than a century, first by the    the	cultural rules.	 But Nomic does	have these traits.
Danes, then by the Normans.  The Danes spoke a North-Ger-     To test Sapir-Whorf (at least its	influence on culture)
manic language which was quite similar to West-Germanic	    you	might create a flexible	self-modifying game (like
Old-English in vocabulary and grammar.	But the	inflection  Nomic) that	closely	mimics most aspects of culture.	 You
pattern	was different for most words.  As the two peoples   could then have several small populations of different


linguistic-cultures, each starting out with the	same game-  event of '... swims	...'", or "I want the swimming".  You
culture, and then eventually developing	their own.  (The    can	of course be explicit with "mi djica lenu mi limna",
games will probably change the languages too - maybe just   and	we tend	to do so in writing for	new people.  If	the
pragmatics).  Testing the effects of various languages on   replicated place is	more complicated and you don't want to
these artificial game-cultures would be	simple,	since you   repeat it, we have a couple	of anaphoric ways to back
would be able to see the change	of the game's rules (since  reference the earlier place	(or forward reference the later
you could know the rules they started with).		    place - a very un-English thing to do).

							    Jim:  Yes, Loglan abstractions lack	arguments.  But	when
		      from Jim Carter			    you	look carefully at what you (I) actually	say, I find
							    that literally 99% of the abstractions need	an argument.
[Editor's Note:	 These comments	were received and replied   Some gismu have cases which	are usually occupied by
to via the network mail, and have been slightly	revised	to  abstractions, like djica x2, and these almost invariably
make them more clear to	the general reader.  In	some cases  need a copy	of a main phrase argument (x1 for djica).  Of
there is non-standard technical	vocabulary, and	references  course variants occur, as in "mi djica lenu	do limna".  But
to things Jim Carter has worked	on apart from Lojban.	    the	variants are much less common.	Even rarer are open
Enough of the comments are relevant that we've chosen to    first arguments; in	-gua!spi I tell	the user to say	"^:i
print them with	minimal	editing, and without trying to add  !ji	/daw !suy !jl",	where "jl" is the anonymous variable.
much extra explanation.					    But	this most rare form is the default in Lojban.
  Some of the comments are in response to things in this      In modal phrases it turns	out that most (maybe 80%) also
issue (specifically the	LogFest	plans),	and some are	    need a replicated argument,	but it's much more variable
responses to items in JL10.  Bob responds to some, but not  than in abstractions; it's about equally divided between
all, of	the comments.]					    "previous sentence"	(in discursives), x1 of	restricted
							    phrase (in restrictive sub-clauses and many	subordinate
Jim:							    assertions), and "me" (for the rest	of the sub-assertions).
1. Responding to Bob's:	"What short term applications for   I have some	rules worked out that are about	98% effective
Lojban are worth highest priority?"			    at getting the right replicated argument, with very	little
							    cueing from	the user.
- As a substitute for Pidgin English in	linguistically
impoverished areas (not	exactly	short term).		    Bob:  I may	be missing something here - I think we're
- Developing a parser-organizer	-- not just a parse tree,   saying the same thing.  In normal conversational use in
but identify the antecedents of	pronouns, which	phrase ends Lojban, people use a lot of	abstractions.  But normally,
up in which case, etc.					    the	x1 place of those abstractions is totally obvious from
  This has been	extremely valuable to me in developing -    context; in	fact, even without context, generally it is the
gua!spi	[ed. note:  Carter's derivative	of Loglan], as it   x1 of the main bridi.  The speaker is always permitted to
reveals	usage problems which are not at	all obvious to an   omit 'obvious sumti' as ellipsis, provided that the
unaided	human.						    listener will understand the implied reference.  Thus in
  Approximate distribution of code lines:		    Lojban usage, the replicated x1 place will often be	left
Data structures, link-list subrt., etc.	  1000		    out.  (But it can be referenced easily with	a single cmavo
Word-related basic subroutines		  1000		    pro-sumti if you really want to be explicit.)
Reading	dictionary, lexer, parser,			      Now, as to other-than-x1 places of the abstraction, these
  caselinks				  800		    tend to be specified about as often	as they	would be in the
Arguments, infinitives,	compounds,			    main bridi,	and therefore might use	replicated places.  But
  replication				 1200		    again, our pro-sumti system	handles	this.
Modal phrases				   300		      In Lojban, discursives and 'modal	phrases' (our sumti
Pronouns, modal	antecedents, proper names 1400		    which are tagged with a sumti tcita, I think), are
Printing output				  1000		    grammatically distinct from	simple abstraction sumti, and a
							    difference in the default interpretation of	the ellipsis is
2. Replicated cases -- does Lojban have	them?  Does Lojban  less likely	to be a	problem.  For subordinate assertions in
want them?  For	example, in "I want to swim", who's going   relative clauses, we have the pro-sumti "ke'a" to refer
to swim?  You or I?  This is an	example	of a replicated	    outward to the main	assertion, but this can	usually	be
case.  Replicated cases	have turned out	to be much more	    ellipsized,	too, just as in	English	("The house that Jack
important for -gua!spi than I originally anticipated.	    built." = "The house that is built by Jack." = "The	house
							    such that Jack built it."  The latter is the translation of
Bob:  If I understand your referent, these are usually	    the	Lojban phrasing	of the colloquial English.)
ellipsized in the natural languages, and are optionally	so    By the way, Institute Loglan does	allow places on
in Lojban, although in Lojban it is far	more obvious that   abstraction	- they just make a grammatical distinction
an ellipsis is taking place.  Thus "I want to swim" is "mi  between an abstraction optionally with sumti, and one
djica lenu limna", where limna is a bare selbri	with the    without sumti.  This distinction is	made in	violation of
first place 'mi' ellipsized, meaning literally "I want the  audio-visual isomorphism ("lepo [mi] godzi"	vs "le po


godzi"), where in oral speech you cannot tell the intended  - See above.  I freely teach my kid	-gua!spi grammar since
grammar	of the "po".					    it works pretty well on English and	since it's more
							    coherent than what he's getting in school.
3. Responding to Bob's:	"We also will have the goal, by	the 6. Responding to Bob's: "Carter's work, in particular, will
end of the weekend, of deciding	on several last	minute	    take a fair	amount of tanru	and lujvo re-making; he	used a
proposals regarding the	language and declaring a	    lot	of Institute Loglan words that are based on no longer
conditional or unconditional baseline (freeze) on the	    acceptable tanru."
							    - Plus playing fast	and loose with the organizational
- Hooray!  At last, an official	Loglan grammar!	 (Now you   compounding	rules, such as they were under the Institute.
can proceed to work on the organizational syntax level.)    This is an area that you should look at very closely:
							    regularities in compound formation.
Bob:  If you mean the syntax of	greater	than sentence
length constructs, it is already in the	grammar.  If you    Bob:  We want to see what large numbers of Lojbanists do in
mean questions of anaphora interpretation, they're already  compound formation before making decisions.	 'Let usage
defined.						    decide.'  Your experiences were relevant, but are only one
							    set	of data	points.	 Besides you, only JCB ever made a
Jim:  You wouldn't believe how hard I had to work to get    great number of compounds, and we both know	that his were
"the speaker" and "the listener" identified consistently,   awful (He still defends Institute Loglan "mormao" for
as well	as "the	reply sentence".  And that was only a small "kill" even	though it requires a different interpretation
part of	the organization work.				    of "madzo" in a compound than separate.  Oh, and Faith Rich
							    made a lot,	too.  But she (and most	others who make	com-
Bob:  Ah!  I think you are talking about computer	    pounds) made some bad ones too, based on JCB's patterns,
recognition of anaphora	in a multi-party conversation,	    and	often overdefined or used English idiom.  She also
given no clues as to who is talking.  That isn't a	    never wrote	text, so what work she did with	place
grammatical problem, but rather	an artificial intelligence  structures is untested.  In	fact, almost everyone who makes
problem.						    lujvo forgets about	place structures.
  With live speakers, this isn't a problem - in	any given
utterance, we know who 'I' am and who 'you' are, and if	    Jim:  My point here	is that	compounds ought	to have	a
there is any question in our minds, we can identify either  specific meaning, and therefore need to be prescribed, not
with a vocative	or a relative clause.  In narrative	    described.
recording of dialog, the narrator has to identify the
speakers, too.						    Bob:  Agreed that compounds	must have a specified meaning,
							    but	who is doing the prescribing.  Every linguist and
Jim:							    lexicographer will tell you	that a dictionary is-and-must-
4. Responding to Bob's:	"There will be a discussion of Jim  be descriptive of what people actually do, not
Yorke and Celso	Grebogi's proposal to have Lojban image	    prescriptive.  The main difference in logical languages is
languages using	gismu based on single languages	to make	    that whoever does the dictionary must gather enough
them easier to learn."					    information	to form	a consensus on what actual usage
							    dictates a word's meaning to be.  To make this process
- Hiss,	boo!  I	am of two minds	on this.  First, the main   easier, we'll quickly develop guidelines as	to how to
benefit	to me of Loglan, and now -gua!spi, is its grammar   algorithmically derive the place structure by combining
and organization, and so it makes a lot	of sense to use	    terms - probably quite similar to what you proposed	several
Lojban grammar on English vocabulary.  I do this in the	    years ago for Institute Loglan.  But if people don't choose
"English" output option	of my parser-organizer.	 However,   to follow these guidelines when they make a	new lujvo, it's
when you've read as much of that swill as I have, you	    their language, not	the dictionary writers'.
quickly	learn that Loglan demands 1-1 correspondence
between	meaning	and word mapping; "un-only" just doesn't    Jim:
cut it for "barely".					      7. Responding to Bob's "In addition, the current gismu
  Second, case defaults, switches, replication,	etc. are    list has more expressive power than	earlier	lists."
very specific and aren't present in English.  Thus you're
really learning	Lojban or -gua!spi vocabulary, just without - Right on!	 Most if not all of your added gismu are in -
the words, and you might as well do the	whole job right.    gua!spi.

5. Responding to Bob's:	"Side issues may include	    8. Responding to the Institute's proposal to divide	gismu
applications such as teaching Lojban to	kids (including	    into "nouns", "verbs", "bodyparts",	etc. sounds rather
using such teaching to help them learn English better)"	    familiar.  In Old Loglan JCB defined all the motion	words
							    with the same cases	(x1 = mover, x2	= destination, x3 =
							    origin x4 =	route),	and many such categories were apparent


that had somewhat uniform cases.  I was	able to	adjust the    "x1 is the house of resident x2".	 x1 is the first case
definitions of a relatively small number of words and get   (or	represents).  "That is my house".  "That" occupies the
the great majority of Loglan words into	uniform	case	    first case,	and "me" occupies the second.
categories.  This was the basis	of my Loglan thesaurus,
which I	have continued into -gua!spi.  HOWEVER,	it was	      Thus the "accusative case" or "x2	case" is actually a set
always my intention that the thesaurus categories were	    of what I would call "cases", one per word,	so you would
merely a learning aid, just as JCB says	in L1 of the motion more naturally say "the accusative case of 'flecto'".  The
words, and if a	category member	seemed to need a variant    relation "case" isn't very useful without its x2 case being
definition I gave it one.  For example under Clothes, "x1   occupied by	a specific word.  (This	despite	the Institute's
is a boot"; "x1	is a coat"; etc.; but also "x1 is a curtain idea to codify definition regularities by designating
over x2" and "x1 is a garment worn by x2 on its	body part   specific meanings for specific cases, e.g. x1 is "always"
x3".							    an actor, except that isn't	true.)
  As for "nouns", I'm not averse to using that terminology
for single-case	gismu, as a tie-in for people who do have   Bob:  A 'bridi' is a relation among	'sumti places';	a
nouns in their native language.	 But of	course the student  'gismu' is only a word form	- the five letter brivla
has to be reminded that	Lojban doesn't have special words   (bridi-valsi = bridi-words)	that can be combined into lujvo
for "is	a" in sentences	like "George is	a horse"; "horse"   compounds using their rafsi	affixes.  The relationship of a
is very	verb-like in Lojban.				    bridi is indicated by the 'selbri' (erroneously called
							    'kunbri' for a while).  A selbri may be an individual gismu
9. Responding to Athelstan's comments on Esperanto "rules": or other brivla, or	it may be a tanru metaphor.  We	avoid
- a. How does Esperanto	get away with not having all the    'case', along with other linguistic	terms that have
article	variants that Lojban has?  For that matter, how	    different definitions for different	people (do we mean
does English?  Close attention to articles is one big	    accusative/nominative/genitive, or actor/beneficiary).
benefit	Loglan (and progeny) has brought to me.		    Thus, what JCB calls 'case tags', and I think you call
							    'modals', we call 'sumti tcita' or 'sumti tags' that label
Bob:  The distinctions made by Lojban aren't often	    a sumti as to the relationship it holds to the rest	of the
consciously made in English and	other languages, although   bridi, or in a relative clause, to the sumti to which it is
different ones are used	that are somewhat comparable.  Thus attached.  (All this confusing and conflicting grammar
le/lo correspond approximately to definite/indefinite	    terminology	is why la lojbangirz. uses Lojban words	in its
articles in English; lo/loi corresponds	approximately to    teaching materials.	 Any English word we use gets attacked
the difference between 'count nouns' and 'mass nouns' -	    by experts who say that we are using the wrong jargon word
though nearly all English words	are categorized	as one or   for	the concept as it is understood	in their specialty.  We
the other, whereas any Lojban word can be either.  Names in cannot afford to misuse jargon if we want to gain academic
English	have no	article, except	for 'The Donald' of recent  respectability.)
news tabloids, and a few archaic usages	surviving from when
British	explorers used them for	faraway	places like 'The    Jim:
Transvaal', and	rivers like 'The Mississippi'.	In any	    10.	My comments on Bob's answers to	questions from students
case, the capital is enough to mark a name in English in    in Dr. Gorsch's class on semiotics:
most circumstances.  Set descriptors are relatively  un-    - Without question,	different languages slice up the pie
useful in English.  Now	of course, all this is excuses -    differently.  My own favorite example was when my wife and
English	is just	a vague	language, but it does have some	    I were buying a picture frame. She was chattering with the
complex	structure to its articles and their equivalents.    storekeeper	in Chinese, choosing which one,	and finally de-
							    cided:  "|mai /hong	-kuang".  Now I	know a little bit of
Jim:							    Chinese, and "/hong" means "red".  So he takes down	a BLACK
  b. I suggest that you	nail down official terminology for  frame.  It turns out that whatever the luminance, if the
"case",	"sumti place", and so on.  In Latin there are a	    hue	is red then you	can call the thing "/hong", whereas in
finite number (six?) of	official cases,	which are used	    English, things below a certain luminance are "black"
semi-idiosyncratically on each word, much like Lojban's	x1, whatever the hue.
x2, x3,	x4, x5 (or Loglan's X, Y, Q, H,	W).  As	I use the     The same is true on phonemes.  I have to hear a word
words, a gismu is a relation between one or more "cases",   repeated several times before I can	distinguish between
much as	a function takes arguments.  However, what you're   Chinese 'q'	and 'x'	(matching English 'sh'), whereas they
talking	about is places	into which actual parameters can be have trouble distinguishing	our 'l'	and 'r'	even though
substituted.  The actual parameter can be called a "case    they have their own	versions of both phonemes.
occupant".  Here are some examples:			      I	despair	of ever	writing	down in	a dictionary an
							    authoritative statement of the denotation of a word.  "Red"
  sin(x), x being an angle in radians.	"x" IS the first    is so obvious:  670	nanometers.  Yet you can trip up on a
case of	sin.  (Or "x" is the symbol representing the first  little detail of luminance.	 Now try to define "liberty".
case of	sin.)  sin(pi).	 pi OCCUPIES the first case of sin, Connotations, as noted by the student, are even more
not "is" or "represents".				    slippery.  I solve the problem by slicing the pie with
							    connotation	on the outside:	 the kinds of connotations


mentioned by this and other class members are simply too    redundancy requirements on the lower limit.	 But we	may
complex	for 20th century logic and database software to	    discuss this proposal at LogFest.
handle,	and so,	connotations will have to wait for major
advances in the	study of language artifacts.		    Jim:
  On the third question, I find	that my	referent boundaries 13.	Regarding comments from	jyjym.:	 In -gua!spi I also de-
and connotations were not changed by learning Loglan --	    cided that nationalities and national money	units should
since, of course, JCB didn't emphasize referent	boundaries  not	have primitive words (gismu), for the same reasons.
-- but the major effects were that the predicate logic def- Also, I define "gua" to mean "x1 is	the language of	people
inition	of the words makes them	much clearer to	me, and	    x2", and "spi" is "x1 is a member of the local culture",
certain	grammar	elements, particularly the articles, the    where "local" is defined relative to the group the speaker
abstractions and the tenses, fill gaps in English that I    is (currently) in.	Thus -gua!spi means, literally,	the
feel a need for.					    local native language.
							      The idea is that by speaking this	particular language the
Bob:  Learning to write	good dictionary	definitions is non- speaker places himself into	a particular culture, from
trivial.  Even if you feel that	the best modern		    which self-referential words have a	unique meaning.	 I
dictionaries convey definitions	well, which Jim	suggests is should post	this definition	in sci.lang -- but my mailer
not the	case, the people who write those definitions are    would overflow with	people telling me what a dumb idea this
bound by space limitations.  They also spend years learning is!
to write such definitions, and the results still go through
several	editing	passes.	 Lojban	words, each referring to a  14.	Regarding changing "ckamu" to "mleca":	The whole issue
single concept,	should be easier to define, but	I still	    of gismu negations is a can	of worms.  For example,	should
expect that our	first attempts will fall far short of the   you	say "evil" or "un-good"?  I think that as a matter of
state of the art.					    policy, negated gismu should be discouraged	(shades	of
  Right	now, I'm going through an intensive self-teaching   1984) unless they clearly are used frequently.  Go through
in lexicography	right now, so the problems are clear to	me. all	the text you have so far -- admittedly not too expert,
But neither Jim, nor anyone else who isn't concentrating    from the students -- and identify all compounds ever used
full time on dictionary	work, should expect to be able to   with zmadu,	and judge whether, had ckamu had a decent
write good definitions for words.			    rafsi, a compound with ckamu would have been more felici-
  As for colors	and the	like - we cheat	in Lojban.  "Red"   tous.  Make	the decision by	the resulting numbers.	The
means 'what you	want it	to mean'.  You add a sumti tcita    main problem will be to decide in each case	if it's	too
indicating things like the standard you	are using (which    wordy to use the conversion	of "zmadu".  I'll bet,
could be a wavelength standard,	or might simply	be labelled actually, that you get a decidedly uneven bias towards
'the Chinese standard').  You also may throw in	sumti for   positive gismu (where "zmadu" is the natural choice).
'against background' and 'to observer',	since colors are
perceived.  But	since most people don't	clearly	mean any of Bob:  This is partly addressed in the gismu	proposals
these when they	mention	colors,	we make	all of the places   section above.  Looking at usage so	far will tell nothing
optional.						    useful.  English has an irregular split between words that
							    are	negated	by un- and words that have an apparent opposite
Jim:							    that is a different	root.  Lojban usage so far has exactly
11. Regarding le lojbo se ciska	pe la maiky'elsym:  His	ex- mirrored English, since English speakers have written
perience with learning Lojban sounds very similar to mine   almost all of the Lojban that exists (which	isn't much).
learning Loglan	-- though I think he has benefitted greatly NO ONE yet writes a	Lojbanic seeming idiom.	 (Helsem tries
from the lessons and the live feedback that you	have pro-   in his poetry, but in several cases	you can	tell that he
vided.							    thought of an idea in English and translated it word-for-
							    word in to Lojban.	The results have been pretty bad
12. On page 45 bottom, you say that the	glue in	a compound  grammatically at times, though he learns.)	But he is the
is always 'r' unless the second	rafsi begins with 'r'.	I   best writer	outside	of DC.	I suspect that I can write a
believe	I tangled with a similar Institute rule.  'n' has   Lojbanic idiom, but	I have not yet started writing in
to be lexically	valid in place of 'r'; why not allow the    Lojban on my own - my evidence is my translation of	Arabian
speaker	to choose what sounds most pleasing?		    Nights, which I am doing in	a very non-English idiom in
							    places (and	I don't	know Arabic).
Bob:  No inherent objection, but most people don't want	a     In any case, we do use 'more' and	'less' in English in
choice,	especially one based on	personal aesthetics, and it some pattern, though I'll agree that the positive
sure makes the computer	program	harder (and which goes into comparison is more frequent	than the negative one.	We also
the dictionary?).  The expandable forms	are justified by    use	'not less than'	and 'not more than' (which are of
the pragmatics of redundancy - longer lujvo contain more    course not quite opposites,	since they include the equality
information for	a noisy	environment (a criticism of -	    middle).  Presumably the usage patterns have some
gua!spi	and other affix-primitive varieties is that they    metaphysical basis - there are times when people want to
reduce redundancy too far in a language	already	pushing	    express 'less than'	as a positive comparison.  Since Lojban
							    tries to remove restrictions rather	than add them when


possible, we should make some effort to	model this feature  the	four sounds are	"c", a standard	"o", an	>unvoiced< "o",
of natural language.  Why should Lojban	restrict negative   and	then another standard "o".  In other words, the	two "o"
thinking?						    sounds are separated by an interval	of time	when sound is
  The several other gismu being	proposed for consideration  being produced, the	vocal tract is in the position for "o",
at Logfest include some	where we don't want to assume that  but	voicing	has been "turned off".	In the sequence	"o'o",
the negative of	the existing gismu is identical	to the	    the	three sounds are separated only	by boundaries between
positive of its	'opposite'.  Thus we are proposing 'ugly'   voicing and	non-voicing.
to correspond to 'beautiful', 'diffuse'	to correspond to      What about words where the ' separates two distinct
'concentrated',	etc.  Since we have other pairs	of this	    vowels, for	example, "ko'a"?  In this case,	there is the
type in	Lojban,	we have	to at least consider these.	    same pattern of voiced vowel + unvoiced vowel + voiced
							    vowel; the unvoiced	vowel may be either "a"-like or	"o"-
		     From John Cowan:			    like -- I myself tend to make it "a"-like.
							      This makes for a nice symmetry between  .	 and  '	.  .
  Herewith a few tidbits that may interest Lojbanists.	    signifies a	period of no sound production at all --	voicing
			 --------			    turned off,	exhaling turned	off.  During ' , voicing is
  In describing	Lojban to a group of friends, I	mentioned   turned off but exhaling continues, producing a voiceless
as a virtue the	default	tenselessness of Lojban	sentences.  vowel.  Exactly which voiceless vowel does not matter,
An English-speaker and an English/Spanish-speaker both	    since Lojban does not distinguish between the different
expressed puzzlement:  "Why would you want to say something possibilities.
without	mentioning tense?"  Rather than	replying directly,    Note:  I am not proposing	that this long-winded
I chose	to describe a little bit about the Navajo language. explanation	replace	the basic instruction to beginners of
I don't	know Navajo, so	what I say here	is subject to	    "Pronounce an 'h'"!	 It is merely available	in reserve, to
correction.						    be trotted out when	the student asks "If it	sounds like an
  In Navajo, it	is necessary to	mention	all sorts of things 'h', why not use the letter	'h'"?  Then you	can reply,
that English finds unnecessary to specify.  The	sentence    "It's not >really< an h-sound at all, it's a voiceless
"You eat blueberries", for example, must be rendered as	    vowel."
"You [pl.] eat separable objects one at	a time."  The
vagueness of English about singular/plural in the case of   Bob:  I like the explanation, which	explains the intent.
"you" is impossible to render in Navajo, as is the	    One	note on	"ko'a".	 I suspect that	in the 'voiceless time'
vagueness of "eat".  The Navajo	fence-rider cannot simply   in between vowels that are different, you are expressing a
report "Fence broken"; he must mention whether the breakage 'voiceless vowel glide'.  If you don't turn	off the	vocal
appeared to be accidental, deliberate, or the result of	an  cords, the sound you get is	/kowa/,	where the /w/ is the
animal's act.  Likewise	it is impossible to say	"They went  glide.  It is this glide that we are trying	to 'devoice'
thataway!" in Navajo.  The direction of	motion must be	    with the  '	, because if the glide were audibly voiced, it
nailed down, as	must the mode of travel, as must the	    would be impossible	to distinguish "*koa" from "koua" from
distinction between going >to< a place and going >toward< a "ko,ua".
place, or going	to a place and passing it on the way to
another	place, etc. etc. etc.				    John: Mathematical nit:
  By comparison, English is downright sloppy.  The Navajo-    If 'tanjo' means 'trigonometric tangent',	how do we say
speaker's reaction to English is "How can I know what the   'geometric tangent'?  Why are the trigonometric functions
>belagana< are talking about?"	From within English itself, given gismu	rather than being handled  by something	in MEX?
this sloppiness	seems more like	a freedom.  It is not	    If 'tangent', why not 'Riemann zeta', or 'factorial'?
necessary to pin down all these	details	to make	a	    --------
grammatical English sentence.  Lojban, although	it can be   Bob: We could generalize "tanjo" to	include	both, but I
as precise as Navajo, can also be even vaguer than English, suspect that you can do a short tanru for 'geometric
leaving	even the details English thinks	are fundamental	    tangent', but not for 'trigonometric tangent'.  The	primary
unspecified.  This gives Lojban	an additional range of	    reason for including both "sinso" and "tanjo" was so the
expressiveness not present in any natural language.	    concepts, as opposed to the	mathematical
			 --------			    functions/operations themselves could be talked about.
  It seems there has been much dispute recently	about the ' Trigonometric functions are	basic to mathematics and many
character, which the Lojban materials say is pronounced	    other fields - not all purely scientific - as wave-forms
like the English "h".  "Why not	use the	letter 'h', then?"  (shapes), yet in English we	can only talk about these in
In JL10, lojbab	gives a	number of reasons for not using	a   terms of their mathematical	function 'names'.  You could
letter.	 It seems to me	that confusion might be	avoided	by  make a tanru like square-triangle-ke-opposite-ce'o-
explaining the role of the buffer sound	differently.  (I    adjacent-ke-side-ratio (no,	I won't	make the lujvo), which
have checked this with lojbab.)				    captures the original intent.  But a non-mathematician -
  Consider the word "co'o".  An	English-based view of this  say	an artist - can	talk in	Lojban about 'tangent curve'
would be that it contains four sounds, "c", "o", an h-like  (tanjykru) without knowing the mathematical	basis.
sound, and another "o".	 This is also the view of the
current	Lojban material.  Another view,	however, says that


  As for the others that are excluded -	lack of	usage
frequency, or any metaphorical advantage outside of one

John:  Another book for	the list, too simple for you
probably but I would recommend it to people who	want to
understand Lojban's underlying basis:
Semantics, by Geoffrey Leech.  (Penguin	Books, 1974, no

It's a simple introduction to the subject in plain
language, and much of the explication in the central
chapters reads like a point-by-point explanation of Lojban
grammatical structures -- though without reference to
Lojban,	of course!

John:  Here's my proposal for a	super-simple le'avla

1.   Lojbanize the word	to be 'borrowed' by the	methods
  used for cmene.
2.   Convert all y's to	some other vowel or to a vocalic
3.   Modify the	ending to be a vowel, either by	dropping a
  final	consonant or by	adding an extra	vowel.
4.   Modify the	beginning to be	a consonant, either by
  adding a extra consonant or dropping an initial vowel.
5.   Choose a gismu (not a rafsi) that categorizes the
  le'avla into a "topic	area".	Replace	the final vowel	of
  the gismu with a vocalic 'r'.
6.   Prefix the	modified gismu to produce the final

  spaghetti -> cidjrspageti
  maple	tree ->	tricrmeipli
  maple	sugar -> saktrmeipli
  mathematical integral	-> cmacrnintegra or cmacrntegra
  brie -> cirlrbri
  cobra	-> sincrkobra
  quark	-> saskrkuarka
  iambic -> pemcrniambo

Bob:  Good proposal, and it appears to generate	good words,
so people can use it for now (note that	in step	5., you	may
have to	use an "n" instead of an "r", though, to avoid a
doubled	letter).  It takes only	minor modifications to
allow this to be used with rafsi (I think).  You glue the
rafsi on in almost the same way, but always use	a gluing
vocalic	consonant with a 3-letter rafsi.

Well, this ends	our biggest issue yet -	and in only 6 weeks


						   Map to LogFest 90

     You need to get to	Interstate 66, on the West side	of Washington D.C., just outside of its	'Beltway' freeway as
shown on the map below.	 For those who attended	in previous years, our exit from the freeway is	now a cloverleaf, so the
exit from the freeway is different, and	Nutley St. has been shifted near our house, so it will look much different.
     From the West on I-66, take Exit 17, Nutley St. going South (to your right).  This	exit did not really exist last
year, though it	was possible to	play games going through the Vienna Metro Station parking lot.
     Taking the	southbound exit	to your	right you want to enter	Nutley St. (not	the Metro parking lot).	 You need to get
over to	the left lane fairly quickly.
     There is a	traffic	light one block	away from the overpass (Swanee Lane on the left).  You will see	a grassy slope
on your	left ahead, and	a large	office building	behind some trees ahead	on your	right.	A very short block later
(opposite the office building),	there is a left	turn lane.  You	turn left here on Hermosa Dr.  Go to the end of	this
street - only about 3 houses, and turn left on Beau Ln.	 Bob & Nora's house will be the	first non-corner house,	directly
opposite the cross-street Suteki Dr.
     From the East - Exit the Beltway for I-66 Westbound 'Front	Royal'.	 You will go about 1 1/2 miles and take	Exit 17
- Nutley St., which is the first exit possible after leaving the Beltway.  There is a very long	ramp - stay on it, and
take Nutley St.	South which exits the ramp just	after the overpass.  You will join with	Nutley St. and must move left
quickly	to merge.  Thereafter, get in the left lane, and follow	the instructions in the	last paragraph of From the West

						Some More Logo Proposals