dotside or Not?: Difference between revisions

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This page contains errata for the Complete Lojban Language resulting from the 4th Grammar Baseline proposal, which makes the [[jbocre: PEG|PEG]] grammar the official grammar.
{CODE(wrap="1]][[jbocre: 08:04]] <ctino> coi .vensa.


While this page documents differences between the CLL and PEG grammar, it will be worded as if the CLL is in error.  As this document evolves a tagging system will be creating to disambiguate the cases in which the PEG grammar is in error from the cases in which the CLL is in error.
[[jbocre: 08:04]] <selckiku> coi la ctino


For errata relating to the current edition of the CLL, see [[jbocre: CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata|CLL, aka Reference Grammar, Errata]]. For suggestions for the 2nd edition of the CLL, see [[jbocre: Suggestions for CLL, second edition|Suggestions for CLL, second edition]].
[[jbocre: 08:04]] <ctino> coi .selkik.


==  Chapter 2 ==
[[jbocre: 08:04]] <vensa> .oi mi xebni la'oi dotside


* Section 18 contains a list of Lojban names for grammatical terms.  If the PEG grammar introduces other grammatical terms (e.g., any of those in [[jbocre: gerna tecyvla|gerna tecyvla]]), this section should be updated to include them.
[[jbocre: 08:04]] <vensa> .ije mi jinvi lodu'u za'o bilga lonu pilno zo la


==  Chapter 4 ==
[[jbocre: 08:05]] <ctino> .i mi nelci la'oi dotside


* Section 6, example 6.15 and 6.17 use the word |.a| in the Lojban, but gloss it to the letteral A.  This is because the example, using zei, does not permit something like |cy. zei .abu| to be interpreted as a "c type-of a lujvo."  This has been corrected in the PEG grammar, and the example should be modified to use .abu, just as the gloss does.
[[jbocre: 08:06]] <vensa> doi la ctino .i e'o ko stidi tu'a lo cmica'o be zoi gy This feels strange to me gy be'o .e lo cmica'o be zo'oi dissatisfaction


==  Chapter 14 ==
[[jbocre: 08:06]] <vensa> ca'e la'oi dotside cu na'e se catni


* Section 14, example 14.4, discusses a situation in which the elidable terminator 'ku' is required.  This specific example is no longer valid, as the 'ku' can be elided without ambiguity in PEG.
[[jbocre: 08:07]]  * ctino shrugs


==  Chapter 17 ==
[[jbocre: 08:08]] <ctino> My lojban is not anywhere near good enough to continue that conversation -'''_-;;


* Section 4 claims that "ba'e" may not have "bu" attached.  The "Marking Words" section of [[jbocre: Magic Words|Magic Words]] document clarifies this, and permits "ba'e bu" to mean "the ba'e letter."  "ba'e" should be removed from the list of cmavo not permitted in front of BU.
[[jbocre: 08:08]] <vensa> .uu


==  Chapter 19 ==
[[jbocre: 08:08]] <vensa> xu do pu jimpe fi lo mi preti


* Section 10 does not properly describe the way ZOI works, by failing to articulate that the token stream is divided into words before looking for delimiters. This issue is extensively discussed at [[BPFK Section: ZOI]], and the CLL needs to be updated to reflect the way the PEG works.
[[jbocre: 08:09]] == tama [[jbocre: ~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net]] has quit [[jbocre: Ping timeout: 245 seconds]]


* Section 10 states, on zoi syntax: "Its syntax is .zoi X. text .X., where X is a Lojban word (called the delimiting word) which is separated from the quoted text by pauses, and which is not found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream."  In the PEG grammar, zoi-open and zoi-close are any-word, rather than any-lojban-word, permitting non-Lojban words to be used as delimiters.
[[jbocre: 08:09]] <ctino> .u'u na go'i


* Section 13 should be reviewed obsolete parts completely rewritten.  This section in large part describes limitations of the YACC parser.  As well, it needs to substantially expanded to include more examples.
[[jbocre: 08:09]] == Moddington has changed nick to Modd|sipna


* Example 13.3 uses the phrase "zo si si si" as a self-erasing example.  [[jbocre: Magic Words|Magic Words]] now defines "zo si" to be a single word, grammatically, shortening this phrase to "zo si si".
[[jbocre: 08:09]] <vensa> I asked you to propose an attitudinal for "this feels strange" and for "dissatisfaction"


* Example 13.5 uses four "si" to erase a zoi phrase.  [[jbocre: Magic Words|Magic Words]] now defines ZOI-clause to be a single word, only requiring a single si to erase it.
[[jbocre: 08:11]] == mashers [[jbocre: ~mashers@82.132.139.205]] has joined #lojban


* Example 13.6 uses two "si" to erase a zo phrase.  [[jbocre: Magic Words|Magic words]] now defines ZO-clause to be a single word, only requiring a single si to erase it.
[[jbocre: 08:11]] <mashers> coi


* Section 15 should mention that fa'o can be used as a zoi delimiter, as I believe it enumerates every other case in which fa'o may appear in the grammar and not indicate the end of text.
[[jbocre: 08:11]] <ctino> Ah.


* Section 15 should mention that fa'o can be quoted by zoi, as it mentions zo and lo'u ... le'u.
[[jbocre: 08:11]] <ctino> .u'i


* Section 16 needs to be carefully checked against [[jbocre: Magic Words|Magic Words]] and updated accordingly. More detail to follow.
[[jbocre: 08:11]] <ctino> coi .macers.


== Chapter 21 ==
[[jbocre: 08:12]] == ksion [[jbocre: ~Xion@217067198101.u.itsa.pl]] has joined #lojban


This chapter needs to be completely rewritten to provide an overview of the PEG morphology and grammar.
[[jbocre: 08:12]] <mashers> coi .ctino.
 
[[jbocre: 08:12]] <ctino> So why don't you like dotside, vensa?
 
[[jbocre: 08:12]] <mashers> Just got a quick question about pronunciation
 
[[jbocre: 08:13]] <vensa> ctino: becuz it's not official
 
[[jbocre: 08:13]] == duck1123 [[jbocre: ~drenfer@c-69-245-123-234.hsd1.mi.comcast.net]] has quit [[jbocre: Ping timeout: 265 seconds]]
 
[[jbocre: 08:13]] <vensa> and becuz it makes for too much unneccesary pausing IMO
 
[[jbocre: 08:13]] <vensa> mashers: ask away
 
[[jbocre: 08:13]] <mashers> Am I correct in thinking that, e.g. tavla, should be pronounced with both vowels the same like the vowel in car, rather than with the second vowel as a schwa?
 
[[jbocre: 08:14]] <vensa> ctino: remind me what dotside comes to solve again? dont you still need to say {la} in front of a selbri name?
 
[[jbocre: 08:14]] <vensa> mashers: yes. all lojban letters should sound the same, no matter where they are in the word
 
[[jbocre: 08:14]] <ctino> vensa: It removes the requirement of disallowing { la, le, lo, etc.} from names.
 
[[jbocre: 08:15]] <vensa> the thing with selbri, however, is that you must stress the penultimate syllable
 
[[jbocre: 08:15]] <vensa> so {tavla} should be ponounced {TAVla} and not {tavLA}
 
[[jbocre: 08:15]] <vensa> ctino: oh right. just {la} and {doi} tho
 
[[jbocre: 08:15]] <ctino> Right. Them thingies.
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <ctino> I for one find that quite nice.
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <mashers> Ok thanks. To my English tongue, it feels more natural to pronounce words ending with "a" with a schwa at the end, buy I guess that would be tavly :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <vensa> ctino: but u still have to say {la} in front of selbri names. because even without dotside i *might* pause before and after a selbri.
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <ctino> Dotside isn't applied to selbri names, I believe.
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <vensa> ctino: y? do you have so many names that require {doi} and {la} in them?
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <ctino> And you still have to say {la} in any case.
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <ctino> Because I like having as much flexibility in the language as possible.
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] <vensa> .ie
 
[[jbocre: 08:16]] == kucli [[jbocre: c036c119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.54.193.25]] has joined #lojban
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <kucli> coi ro do
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <ctino> I think it makes it richer
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <ctino> coi .kucli.
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <vensa> hmm... wasnt there a different approach to also allow {la} and {doi} in names?
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <ctino> I don't know...
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <vensa> coi ba'ei LAAAAAAA kucli
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <ctino> All I know is xorlo.
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <kucli> u'i
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <vensa> ctino: y do u insist then to nat say {la}?
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <kucli> vensa: do cinmo ma
 
[[jbocre: 08:17]] <ksion> coi la vensa .e ro drata nalselrinsa be mi
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <ctino> La isn't required after a COI
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <vensa> coi la ksion .i mi na pu djuno lodu'u do zvati .u'u
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <mashers> {ro do} = "all you" = everyone?
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <vensa> citno: it IS required for SELBRI NAMES!
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <vensa> *ctino
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <ksion> u'unaidai
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <ctino> mashers: Yes.
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <vensa> doi la kucli mi cinmo loka fengu la ctino .u'i
 
[[jbocre: 08:18]] <mashers> Thanks :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:19]] <kucli> vensa: u'icai
 
[[jbocre: 08:19]] <ctino> mashers: No problem.
 
[[jbocre: 08:19]] <kucli> vensa: just for a {la} ?
 
[[jbocre: 08:19]] <vensa> ksion: what was the other alternative to dotside for allowing {la} and {doi} in cmevla?
 
[[jbocre: 08:19]] <ctino> vensa: I still haven't gotten used to noticing if something's a selbri or not.
 
[[jbocre: 08:19]] <vensa> ctino: it's VERY simple. if it ends with a vowel - its a selbri
 
[[jbocre: 08:20]] <vensa> thats it
 
[[jbocre: 08:20]] <ksion> vensa: No idea.
 
[[jbocre: 08:20]] <ctino> vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve...
 
[[jbocre: 08:21]] <vensa> kucli: I am a man of principles. yes.
 
[[jbocre: 08:21]] <vensa> ctino: tough luck. but thats one of the things I'm willing to give up on for the gratification of such a beautiful, unambiguos language
 
[[jbocre: 08:21]]  * ctino sighs
 
[[jbocre: 08:21]] <vensa> and besides: ending with an {s} doesnt sound too much diff
 
[[jbocre: 08:22]] <ctino> Yeah, I suppose.
 
[[jbocre: 08:22]] <kucli> ctino: i don't think it can be fixed...it is an important rule that give unambiguity
 
[[jbocre: 08:22]] <ctino> :\
 
[[jbocre: 08:22]] <ctino> Oh well. I can overlook it.
 
[[jbocre: 08:22]] <vensa> ctino: in many languages you are required to pronounce your name differently because of restriction in that languages dialect
 
[[jbocre: 08:22]] <mashers> co'o ro do
 
[[jbocre: 08:22]] <ctino> But that's why I like dotside. Because it allows for just that little bit more flexibility.
 
[[jbocre: 08:23]] <ctino> co'o .macers.
 
[[jbocre: 08:23]] <vensa> ctino: I'm still investigating the dotside issue. I'm sure there is another way
 
[[jbocre: 08:23]] == mashers [[jbocre: ~mashers@82.132.139.205]] has quit [[jbocre: Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi]]
 
[[jbocre: 08:23]] <ctino> But if it were better why wouldn't it be the one we're trying to get instantiated?
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]] <ctino> Just because there's another way doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]] <vensa> true
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]]  * ctino shrugs
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]] <vensa> first let me recall the way
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]] <vensa> then Ill remember why I was opposed to dotside
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]] <vensa> and an advocate of the other way
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]] <ctino> Then we can debate its merits.
 
[[jbocre: 08:24]] <ctino> Mhmm
 
[[jbocre: 08:25]] <kucli> ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?
 
[[jbocre: 08:25]] <kucli> ctino: I think {la'oi} is the best way...
 
[[jbocre: 08:26]] <vensa> kucli: he said nothing to that end. you got it wrong
 
[[jbocre: 08:26]] <kucli> [[jbocre: 08:15]] <ctino> vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve..
 
[[jbocre: 08:27]] <kucli> did i missunderstood?
 
[[jbocre: 08:27]] <vensa> [[jbocre: 08:25]] <kucli> ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?
 
[[jbocre: 08:27]] <vensa> that aint the same thing. its the opposite
 
[[jbocre: 08:28]] <kucli> Actually, yes -_-
 
[[jbocre: 08:28]] <kucli> u'u
 
[[jbocre: 08:28]] <vensa> besides: he already accepted the "ending of vowel names with a consonant". it's the {la}\{doi} restriction we're trying to fix now
 
[[jbocre: 08:28]] <kucli> what restriction is it?
 
[[jbocre: 08:28]] <ctino> One of the things that attracted me to lojban was that supposedly it's made to allow for the very direct transfer of intention, through completely unambiguous grammar. A big part of a person is their name. And when you're discussing someone I like to be able to actually say their name. Not some close approximation. If the name is in japanese I say it /in japanese/. If it's in hebrew I do the same. So that's the long winded version that it
 
[[jbocre: 08:28]] <ctino>  appears you don't need anymore because you moved on while I was typing :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:29]] <ksion> vensa: Doesn't partial dotside after COI and DOI fix the issue?
 
[[jbocre: 08:29]] <vensa> http://dag.github.com/cll/4/8/
 
[[jbocre: 08:29]] == Jantaro [[jbocre: ~Jantaro@vl955-95.wireless.umass.edu]] has quit [[jbocre: Quit: Leaving]]
 
[[jbocre: 08:29]] <vensa> "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."
 
[[jbocre: 08:29]] == aidalgol [[jbocre: ~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz]] has joined #lojban
 
[[jbocre: 08:30]] <vensa> ctino: so you can always say {la'oi} and after that you can even utter a name that contains bushmanian click sounds
 
[[jbocre: 08:30]] <ctino> Yeah, that's why I stopped complaining. Is that that's good enough for me. I was just trying to explain my whole POV.
 
[[jbocre: 08:31]] <vensa> ksion: I dont know what "partial" dotside is. if you mean {coi la .laplas}, then no
 
[[jbocre: 08:31]] <vensa> ctino: ok. so no agument :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:31]] <ctino> Yup!
 
[[jbocre: 08:31]] <vensa> ctino: did you read the CLL section I linked?
 
[[jbocre: 08:31]] <ctino> No. I shall.
 
[[jbocre: 08:31]] <vensa> ctino: you CAN use {la} or {doi} if you simply preced it with a consonant
 
[[jbocre: 08:31]] <ctino> Oh, yes, I knew that.
 
[[jbocre: 08:32]] <vensa> so it's exactly the same as requiring a consonant at the end of a vowel-ending name.
 
[[jbocre: 08:32]] <vensa> so I dont see the big deal
 
[[jbocre: 08:32]] <ctino> The problem is, yet again, it dilutes the name.
 
[[jbocre: 08:32]] <vensa> and no reason to swtich to dotside
 
[[jbocre: 08:33]] <vensa> is {slaplas} THAT diff from "laplas"?
 
[[jbocre: 08:33]] <ctino> If my name is Lair, and I go to lojban and say "Cool, my name doesn't even need to change!" And then it has to become {slair} or something then it's a bit of an issue. In my mind.
 
[[jbocre: 08:33]] <ctino> To me, yeah, it's a huge difference.
 
[[jbocre: 08:33]] <ctino> But we all know I'm insane :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:33]] <vensa> de'a jundi
 
[[jbocre: 08:35]] <nouser> coi ro
 
[[jbocre: 08:35]] <kucli> vensa: what does {de'a jundi} means?
 
[[jbocre: 08:35]] <vensa> ctino: but dont you think it's pretty much the same thing as having to add a consonant to a name that ends in a vowel?
 
[[jbocre: 08:35]] <vensa> it's even LESS frequent
 
[[jbocre: 08:35]] <kucli> coi la nouser
 
[[jbocre: 08:35]] <vensa> so y devise a whole method of dotside just for that silly thing?
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] == lindar [[jbocre: ~lindarthe@166.135.137.95]] has joined #lojban
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <vensa> kucli: it means my attention is being paused, i.e. "brb"
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <selckiku> ahh!  that was quite relaxing
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <selckiku> no one switched to my invention:
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <ctino> I think the beginning is more important than the end. Because it's the first thing you hear, so more of your thoughts are attached to it.
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <lindar> ?
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <selckiku> di'a snuju'i
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] == Hugglesworth [[jbocre: ~raposa@S010600219be23dcb.lb.shawcable.net]] has joined #lojban
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <lindar> What're we talking about?
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <selckiku> i think it's a pretty word, "snuju'i"
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <vensa> ctino: baloni.
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <ctino> lindar: dotside.
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <selckiku> yeah, what are we talking about?  i didn't really pay attention
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <vensa> ctino: and the {la} can also be somewhere in the middle of the name
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <kucli> coi la lindar
 
[[jbocre: 08:36]] <lindar> ...huh.
 
[[jbocre: 08:37]] <selckiku> i love dotside
 
[[jbocre: 08:37]] <ctino> Yeah... I dunno. I think it messes the name up more than it needs to be mangled.
 
[[jbocre: 08:37]] <ctino> selckiku: vensa doesn't :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:37]] <vensa> that right. I dont! what you gonna do about it :P
 
[[jbocre: 08:37]] <kucli> vensa: How can you say {keeping back my attention, i.e : i'm back}
 
[[jbocre: 08:37]] <selckiku> you may have noticed i don't just pause, i also say the name with a different tone and rhythm, i make a little space for it
 
[[jbocre: 08:37]] <lindar> ?
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <vensa> kucli {di'a jundi}
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <ctino> xD
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <lindar> For those arguing with dotside: You're retarded. Shut up.
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <lindar> Seriously.
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <vensa> selckiku: that should be *allowed*, not *required*
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <ctino> lindar: You're retarded. But you already knew that :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <lindar> No, it -should- be required.
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <selckiku> good luck never saying a name with "la" or "doi" in it! :P
 
[[jbocre: 08:38]] <selckiku> we tried for years, and failed
 
[[jbocre: 08:39]] <selckiku> we'd always be like, ooooops there's a "doi" in that name
 
[[jbocre: 08:39]] <vensa> selkik: whats the problem with adding a consonant before the {la} or the {doi}?
 
[[jbocre: 08:39]] <selckiku> or whatever was disallowed, i forget
 
[[jbocre: 08:39]] <selckiku> "lai" isn't allowed i think-- as if anyone ever said "lai"!!
 
[[jbocre: 08:39]] <vensa> u'i
 
[[jbocre: 08:39]] <selckiku> vensa, huh?  in the name you mean?  that's not the nondotside rule, and i doubt you could make it parse unambiguously
 
[[jbocre: 08:40]] <selckiku> mi pinxe lo bisli tcati
 
[[jbocre: 08:40]] <@Broca> Did lindar use “arguing with” to mean “arguing against”?
 
[[jbocre: 08:40]] <lindar> http://lojban.org/tiki/the+case+against+la <--- you should probably read this as it clearly explains why it's not optional.
 
[[jbocre: 08:40]] <ctino> lindar: BTW, I really like your lojban game idea.
 
[[jbocre: 08:40]] <lindar> ctino: Awesome. Contribute ideas. =D
 
[[jbocre: 08:40]] <ctino> Broca: I think so... That's what tripped me up.
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]] <selckiku> i think it's a good reward to give people titles
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]] <vensa> selkik: you werent paying attention to the CLL link I provided
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]]  * lindar is like the new xorxes without the obnoxiousness and with less proficiency.
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]] <selckiku> gives us something fun to talk about
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]] <ctino> lindar: I will, if I think of any. Also props for reading Cracked.
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]] <vensa> [[jbocre: 08:29]] <vensa> http://dag.github.com/cll/4/8/
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]] <vensa> 08:29] <vensa> "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."
 
[[jbocre: 08:41]] <lindar> Well, a different KIND of obnoxiousness, anyway.
 
[[jbocre: 08:42]] <selckiku> it's not just that we dislike that rule, vensa, it's that we *failed* at it
 
[[jbocre: 08:42]] <vensa> selkik: thats your deficiency
 
[[jbocre: 08:42]] <selckiku> lots of people who *wanted* to follow that rule tried, and were never able to! :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:42]] <selckiku> it was before i was very active, so i didn't do much of the failing
 
[[jbocre: 08:42]] <vensa> IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"
 
[[jbocre: 08:42]] <vensa> lindar, ctino: what is this game?
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <vensa> btw ctino: I think you DO need {la} after COI. it's only after DOI that it is permitted to be omitted
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <lindar> There isn't any middle ground, I'm afraid. Is the phoneme-stream .mivIskalamArk. a big long cmene (of the first type, preceded by a pause), or is it mi viska la mark., ending on a cmene of the other type? It's one or the other. Besides, if people could remember to distinguish the two kinds of cmene, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <ctino> lindar: Really...?
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <selckiku> there's a printed nondotside error *in that very section*: Russian “Svetlana”        sfietlanys.
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <lindar> vensa: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/e0c88f79c4c7bf6f
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <lindar> vensa: No, {doi} is part of COI.
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <vensa> lindar: I still dont understand what you are arguing for and against
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <vensa> lindar: duh, no!
 
[[jbocre: 08:44]] <vensa> doi is DOI
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] <vensa> coi is COI
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] == Broca [[jbocre: arj@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no]] has quit [[jbocre: Ping timeout: 272 seconds]]
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] <lindar> ...
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] <lindar> That's weird.
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] <ctino> It's true.
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] <lindar> However, neither require LA.
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] <ctino> That's what I thought...
 
[[jbocre: 08:45]] <vensa> selkik: y is that an error?
 
[[jbocre: 08:46]] <ctino> I swear, these rules have to be SOMEWHERE written down...
 
[[jbocre: 08:46]] <vensa> lindar: citation required
 
[[jbocre: 08:46]] <selckiku> vensa, predotside names can't have "la" in them, like sfietLAnys does
 
[[jbocre: 08:46]] <lindar> vensa: My boot up your arse.
 
[[jbocre: 08:46]] <vensa> ctino: in this case they are. just have to find them :_)
 
[[jbocre: 08:46]]  * ctino roars
 
[[jbocre: 08:46]] <vensa> selkik: they CAN!!!!! if they have a consonant b4 the LA
 
[[jbocre: 08:47]] <vensa> becuz it cant break up
 
[[jbocre: 08:47]] == aidalgol [[jbocre: ~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz]] has quit [[jbocre: Ping timeout: 240 seconds]]
 
[[jbocre: 08:47]] <vensa> becus theres no {.} after the {f}
 
[[jbocre: 08:47]] <vensa> are you blind?
 
[[jbocre: 08:47]] <vensa> .u'u
 
[[jbocre: 08:47]] <vensa> lindar: this is where I quit paying attention to you
 
[[jbocre: 08:47]]  * lindar shrugs.
 
[[jbocre: 08:48]] <lindar> I don't know where it's written down, but that's how it's used.
 
[[jbocre: 08:48]] <selckiku> oh, is that the rule??  i dunno what the rule is b/c we never managed to follow the rule
 
[[jbocre: 08:48]] <ctino> http://dag.github.com/cll/6/11/
 
[[jbocre: 08:48]] <lindar> So, whether or not it's written down somewhere, that's how it's used.
 
[[jbocre: 08:48]] <selckiku> it's silly to relitigate dotside
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <vensa> selkik: it shouldnt be THAT hard.
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <ctino> Is for elidability with COI and DOI.
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <selckiku> there's so many unresolved things left to argue about
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] == MigoMipo [[jbocre: ~John@84-217-0-40.tn.glocalnet.net]] has joined #lojban
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <lindar> There we go.
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <lindar> >.>
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <kucli> lindar: I'm agree with vensa, like everybody, you need to provide proof
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <vensa> so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?
 
[[jbocre: 08:49]] <lindar> Seriously, though. Why are we discussing shit which is anciently old when we have bigger problems to worry about?
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <lindar> >_>
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <selckiku> it's funny how xorxes has adopted this policy of answering every question with two answers, the old official answer and the new xorxesese answer :D
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <kucli> de'a jundi
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <lindar> selkik: I actually find that annoying.
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <selckiku> lindar, why's that?
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <lindar> "Hey, how does X work?" "Well, if we accepted THIS proposal, it would work like *this*."
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <ctino> xD
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <vensa> until dotside becomes either official or officially banned, this discussion will always rerise when newcomers arrive
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <ctino> He's campaigning.
 
[[jbocre: 08:50]] <lindar> Yes, we get it xorxes, everything in Lojban is wrong.
 
[[jbocre: 08:51]] <tomoj> vensa: "the case against 'la'"?
 
[[jbocre: 08:51]] <selckiku> we're discussing these old things again because vensa is wrestling with learning lojban.  that's what it's like when anyone learns lojban, as far as i can tell.  you have to learn these controversies and internalize them.  you form your opinions about things.
 
[[jbocre: 08:51]] <tomoj> you think that is against dotside?
 
[[jbocre: 08:51]] <lindar> "The case against 'la'." is the dotside proposal.
 
[[jbocre: 08:51]] <lindar> >_>
 
[[jbocre: 08:51]] <selckiku> lindar, he's not just complaining, he's respecting the way it is now enough to describe it, while also advocating how we can move forward.  i think it's a reasonable compromise.
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <jcowan> Dotside should become official.  <-- ukase from former lojban tsar
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <vensa> ctino: oh right. the diff between COI and DOI is that DOI doesnt require a pause B4 the bare cmevla
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <ctino> :)
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <vensa> tomoj: what does that mean?
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <vensa> selkik: ie
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <tomoj> <vensa> so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <tomoj> 
 
[[jbocre: 08:52]] <tomoj> responding to that
 
[[jbocre: 08:53]] <vensa> tomoj: ki'e
 
[[jbocre: 08:53]] <vensa> got it now
 
[[jbocre: 08:53]] <tomoj> so with dotside does DOI merge with COI?
 
[[jbocre: 08:53]] <vensa> so, tell lindar, that if he wants us to stop talking about dotside-or-not he should push to make it official
 
[[jbocre: 08:53]] <tomoj> then you'd get {doi nai} too though
 
[[jbocre: 08:53]] <selckiku> dotside is only annoying to do if you think of it as a mechanical rule.. i like to think of it as making sense
 
[[jbocre: 08:53]] <vensa> nobody worries about xorlo anymore, since it's official
 
[[jbocre: 08:54]] <ctino> "I'm not talking to you." {doi nai} hehe.
 
[[jbocre: 08:54]] == Broca [[jbocre: arj@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no]] has joined #lojban
 
[[jbocre: 08:54]] == mode/#lojban [[jbocre: +o Broca|+o Broca]] by ChanServ
 
[[jbocre: 08:54]] == mode/#lojban [[jbocre: +o Broca|+o Broca]] by ChanServ
 
[[jbocre: 08:54]] <tomoj> vensa: did you read "The Case Against LA"?
 
[[jbocre: 08:54]] <vensa> tomoj: no, I just read the headings
 
[[jbocre: 08:54]] <tomoj> if you weren't convinced after that I'd be surprised
 
[[jbocre: 08:55]] <vensa> theres toto much going on here right now for me to read it
 
[[jbocre: 08:55]] <vensa> tomoj: I'm surprised that if it's so convincing,.... why isnt it official?!
 
[[jbocre: 08:55]] <ctino> Because the lojban community is uber slow?
 
[[jbocre: 08:55]] <selckiku> i think dotside can be a lot more beautiful than the old way.. it makes a little space for the name
 
[[jbocre: 08:55]] <selckiku> visually i like the way it makes the name pop out
 
[[jbocre: 08:55]] <vensa> selkik: I like to talk fast. sue me
 
[[jbocre: 08:56]] <selckiku> it's like putting *stars* around something or "quotes", you put the .dots. and the name just looks .nameish.
 
[[jbocre: 08:56]] <vensa> selkik: you should be allowed to do that. not required IMO
 
[[jbocre: 08:56]] <selckiku> you only need to say a name once at most
 
[[jbocre: 08:56]] <vensa> in speech it sucks IMO
 
[[jbocre: 08:56]] <ctino> vensa: I like talking fast as well. But if you normally talk super fast then just slow down to normal speed when you say a name and it's all okay, no?
 
[[jbocre: 08:56]] <vensa> not if I'm calling for someone who fails to hear me the first time
 
[[jbocre: 08:56]] <selckiku> you can assign people pro-sumti
 
[[jbocre: 08:57]] <selckiku> you can say pauses quickly.. they can be just a glottal stop
 
[[jbocre: 08:57]] <vensa> doi .moder. doi .moder. doi .moder.
 
[[jbocre: 08:57]] <selckiku> i've never really practiced saying dotside names quickly but i'm sure you could say them very quickly indeed if you practiced it
 
[[jbocre: 08:57]] <ksion> Glottal stop is ugly.
 
[[jbocre: 08:57]] <ctino> Calling their name quickly isn't going to make them notice you more... It's actually less likely they'll recognize their name.
 
[[jbocre: 08:58]] == MigoMipo [[jbocre: ~John@84-217-0-40.tn.glocalnet.net]] has quit [[jbocre: Remote host closed the connection|Remote host closed the connection]]
 
[[jbocre: 08:58]] <selckiku> anyway where is everyone in such a hurry to get to these days
 
[[jbocre: 08:58]] <tomoj> vensa: the point is, you will fuck up
 
[[jbocre: 08:58]] <tomoj> dotside is much easier to get right
 
[[jbocre: 08:58]] <selckiku> they just want to get their lojban done in as few superfast syllables as possible and move on to other things
 
[[jbocre: 08:59]] <vensa> hehe
 
[[jbocre: 08:59]] <selckiku> i like a nice relaxing time saying something in lojban!  why hurry to something else!
 
[[jbocre: 08:59]] <vensa> selkik: if you want it to be a practical language, you also need brevity
 
[[jbocre: 08:59]] <selckiku> lack of brevity is so far from lojban's main practical problem
 
[[jbocre: 08:59]] <vensa> tomoj: I dont think it would be that hard to go by without dotside
 
[[jbocre: 08:59]] <selckiku> lack of vocabulary is more like it
 
[[jbocre: 09:00]] <tomoj> you're wrong
 
[[jbocre: 09:00]] <selckiku> rich vocabulary adds tremendously to brevity, because you can use appropriate words
 
[[jbocre: 09:00]] <tomoj> it's demonstrably hard to go by
 
[[jbocre: 09:00]] <vensa> [[jbocre: 08:42]] <vensa> IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"
 
[[jbocre: 09:00]] <ctino> This reminds me that I want there to be a lojban band.
 
[[jbocre: 09:00]] <selckiku> it's not just people's names, we're always inventing names on the fly, names of cities, names of historical figures, etc
 
[[jbocre: 09:01]] <vensa> selkik: hmmm
 
[[jbocre: 09:02]] <ksion> selckiku: Then just learn to form them. It's not rocket science.
 
[[jbocre: 09:02]] <tomoj> an example from the essay is "la stivn. laitl."
 
[[jbocre: 09:02]] <tomoj> I certainly wouldn't have noticed the error
 
[[jbocre: 09:03]] <ctino> I didn't notice it until you pointed it our -'''_-;;
 
[[jbocre: 09:03]] <ctino> *out
 
[[jbocre: 09:03]] <tomoj> I think you should be required to read "The Case Against LA" before arguing about dotside :)
 
[[jbocre: 09:03]] <vensa> tomoj: I think dotside should be made official if it's such a good thing
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <selckiku> dotside is perfectly official
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <tomoj> me too
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <vensa> but I intend to read it as soon as this argument dies down
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <vensa> selkik: citation neede
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <selckiku> it's just that there's nobody in charge of lojban these days except us chickens
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <ctino> selckiku: ??
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <vensa> hehe
 
[[jbocre: 09:04]] <selckiku> the BPFK apparently has abdicated their authority because they're busy writing a book or something
 
{CODE}

Revision as of 16:48, 4 November 2013

{CODE(wrap="1]]jbocre: 08:04 <ctino> coi .vensa.

jbocre: 08:04 <selckiku> coi la ctino

jbocre: 08:04 <ctino> coi .selkik.

jbocre: 08:04 <vensa> .oi mi xebni la'oi dotside

jbocre: 08:04 <vensa> .ije mi jinvi lodu'u za'o bilga lonu pilno zo la

jbocre: 08:05 <ctino> .i mi nelci la'oi dotside

jbocre: 08:06 <vensa> doi la ctino .i e'o ko stidi tu'a lo cmica'o be zoi gy This feels strange to me gy be'o .e lo cmica'o be zo'oi dissatisfaction

jbocre: 08:06 <vensa> ca'e la'oi dotside cu na'e se catni

jbocre: 08:07 * ctino shrugs

jbocre: 08:08 <ctino> My lojban is not anywhere near good enough to continue that conversation -_-;;

jbocre: 08:08 <vensa> .uu

jbocre: 08:08 <vensa> xu do pu jimpe fi lo mi preti

jbocre: 08:09 == tama jbocre: ~tama@pool-71-164-234-131.dllstx.fios.verizon.net has quit jbocre: Ping timeout: 245 seconds

jbocre: 08:09 <ctino> .u'u na go'i

jbocre: 08:09 == Moddington has changed nick to Modd|sipna

jbocre: 08:09 <vensa> I asked you to propose an attitudinal for "this feels strange" and for "dissatisfaction"

jbocre: 08:11 == mashers jbocre: ~mashers@82.132.139.205 has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:11 <mashers> coi

jbocre: 08:11 <ctino> Ah.

jbocre: 08:11 <ctino> .u'i

jbocre: 08:11 <ctino> coi .macers.

jbocre: 08:12 == ksion jbocre: ~Xion@217067198101.u.itsa.pl has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:12 <mashers> coi .ctino.

jbocre: 08:12 <ctino> So why don't you like dotside, vensa?

jbocre: 08:12 <mashers> Just got a quick question about pronunciation

jbocre: 08:13 <vensa> ctino: becuz it's not official

jbocre: 08:13 == duck1123 jbocre: ~drenfer@c-69-245-123-234.hsd1.mi.comcast.net has quit jbocre: Ping timeout: 265 seconds

jbocre: 08:13 <vensa> and becuz it makes for too much unneccesary pausing IMO

jbocre: 08:13 <vensa> mashers: ask away

jbocre: 08:13 <mashers> Am I correct in thinking that, e.g. tavla, should be pronounced with both vowels the same like the vowel in car, rather than with the second vowel as a schwa?

jbocre: 08:14 <vensa> ctino: remind me what dotside comes to solve again? dont you still need to say {la} in front of a selbri name?

jbocre: 08:14 <vensa> mashers: yes. all lojban letters should sound the same, no matter where they are in the word

jbocre: 08:14 <ctino> vensa: It removes the requirement of disallowing { la, le, lo, etc.} from names.

jbocre: 08:15 <vensa> the thing with selbri, however, is that you must stress the penultimate syllable

jbocre: 08:15 <vensa> so {tavla} should be ponounced {TAVla} and not {tavLA}

jbocre: 08:15 <vensa> ctino: oh right. just {la} and {doi} tho

jbocre: 08:15 <ctino> Right. Them thingies.

jbocre: 08:16 <ctino> I for one find that quite nice.

jbocre: 08:16 <mashers> Ok thanks. To my English tongue, it feels more natural to pronounce words ending with "a" with a schwa at the end, buy I guess that would be tavly :)

jbocre: 08:16 <vensa> ctino: but u still have to say {la} in front of selbri names. because even without dotside i *might* pause before and after a selbri.

jbocre: 08:16 <ctino> Dotside isn't applied to selbri names, I believe.

jbocre: 08:16 <vensa> ctino: y? do you have so many names that require {doi} and {la} in them?

jbocre: 08:16 <ctino> And you still have to say {la} in any case.

jbocre: 08:16 <ctino> Because I like having as much flexibility in the language as possible.

jbocre: 08:16 <vensa> .ie

jbocre: 08:16 == kucli jbocre: c036c119@gateway/web/freenode/ip.192.54.193.25 has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:17 <kucli> coi ro do

jbocre: 08:17 <ctino> I think it makes it richer

jbocre: 08:17 <ctino> coi .kucli.

jbocre: 08:17 <vensa> hmm... wasnt there a different approach to also allow {la} and {doi} in names?

jbocre: 08:17 <ctino> I don't know...

jbocre: 08:17 <vensa> coi ba'ei LAAAAAAA kucli

jbocre: 08:17 <ctino> All I know is xorlo.

jbocre: 08:17 <kucli> u'i

jbocre: 08:17 <vensa> ctino: y do u insist then to nat say {la}?

jbocre: 08:17 <kucli> vensa: do cinmo ma

jbocre: 08:17 <ksion> coi la vensa .e ro drata nalselrinsa be mi

jbocre: 08:18 <ctino> La isn't required after a COI

jbocre: 08:18 <vensa> coi la ksion .i mi na pu djuno lodu'u do zvati .u'u

jbocre: 08:18 <mashers> {ro do} = "all you" = everyone?

jbocre: 08:18 <vensa> citno: it IS required for SELBRI NAMES!

jbocre: 08:18 <vensa> *ctino

jbocre: 08:18 <ksion> u'unaidai

jbocre: 08:18 <ctino> mashers: Yes.

jbocre: 08:18 <vensa> doi la kucli mi cinmo loka fengu la ctino .u'i

jbocre: 08:18 <mashers> Thanks :)

jbocre: 08:19 <kucli> vensa: u'icai

jbocre: 08:19 <ctino> mashers: No problem.

jbocre: 08:19 <kucli> vensa: just for a {la} ?

jbocre: 08:19 <vensa> ksion: what was the other alternative to dotside for allowing {la} and {doi} in cmevla?

jbocre: 08:19 <ctino> vensa: I still haven't gotten used to noticing if something's a selbri or not.

jbocre: 08:19 <vensa> ctino: it's VERY simple. if it ends with a vowel - its a selbri

jbocre: 08:20 <vensa> thats it

jbocre: 08:20 <ksion> vensa: No idea.

jbocre: 08:20 <ctino> vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve...

jbocre: 08:21 <vensa> kucli: I am a man of principles. yes.

jbocre: 08:21 <vensa> ctino: tough luck. but thats one of the things I'm willing to give up on for the gratification of such a beautiful, unambiguos language

jbocre: 08:21 * ctino sighs

jbocre: 08:21 <vensa> and besides: ending with an {s} doesnt sound too much diff

jbocre: 08:22 <ctino> Yeah, I suppose.

jbocre: 08:22 <kucli> ctino: i don't think it can be fixed...it is an important rule that give unambiguity

jbocre: 08:22 <ctino> :\

jbocre: 08:22 <ctino> Oh well. I can overlook it.

jbocre: 08:22 <vensa> ctino: in many languages you are required to pronounce your name differently because of restriction in that languages dialect

jbocre: 08:22 <mashers> co'o ro do

jbocre: 08:22 <ctino> But that's why I like dotside. Because it allows for just that little bit more flexibility.

jbocre: 08:23 <ctino> co'o .macers.

jbocre: 08:23 <vensa> ctino: I'm still investigating the dotside issue. I'm sure there is another way

jbocre: 08:23 == mashers jbocre: ~mashers@82.132.139.205 has quit jbocre: Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi

jbocre: 08:23 <ctino> But if it were better why wouldn't it be the one we're trying to get instantiated?

jbocre: 08:24 <ctino> Just because there's another way doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

jbocre: 08:24 <vensa> true

jbocre: 08:24 * ctino shrugs

jbocre: 08:24 <vensa> first let me recall the way

jbocre: 08:24 <vensa> then Ill remember why I was opposed to dotside

jbocre: 08:24 <vensa> and an advocate of the other way

jbocre: 08:24 <ctino> Then we can debate its merits.

jbocre: 08:24 <ctino> Mhmm

jbocre: 08:25 <kucli> ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?

jbocre: 08:25 <kucli> ctino: I think {la'oi} is the best way...

jbocre: 08:26 <vensa> kucli: he said nothing to that end. you got it wrong

jbocre: 08:26 <kucli> jbocre: 08:15 <ctino> vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve..

jbocre: 08:27 <kucli> did i missunderstood?

jbocre: 08:27 <vensa> jbocre: 08:25 <kucli> ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?

jbocre: 08:27 <vensa> that aint the same thing. its the opposite

jbocre: 08:28 <kucli> Actually, yes -_-

jbocre: 08:28 <kucli> u'u

jbocre: 08:28 <vensa> besides: he already accepted the "ending of vowel names with a consonant". it's the {la}\{doi} restriction we're trying to fix now

jbocre: 08:28 <kucli> what restriction is it?

jbocre: 08:28 <ctino> One of the things that attracted me to lojban was that supposedly it's made to allow for the very direct transfer of intention, through completely unambiguous grammar. A big part of a person is their name. And when you're discussing someone I like to be able to actually say their name. Not some close approximation. If the name is in japanese I say it /in japanese/. If it's in hebrew I do the same. So that's the long winded version that it

jbocre: 08:28 <ctino> appears you don't need anymore because you moved on while I was typing :)

jbocre: 08:29 <ksion> vensa: Doesn't partial dotside after COI and DOI fix the issue?

jbocre: 08:29 <vensa> http://dag.github.com/cll/4/8/

jbocre: 08:29 == Jantaro jbocre: ~Jantaro@vl955-95.wireless.umass.edu has quit jbocre: Quit: Leaving

jbocre: 08:29 <vensa> "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."

jbocre: 08:29 == aidalgol jbocre: ~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:30 <vensa> ctino: so you can always say {la'oi} and after that you can even utter a name that contains bushmanian click sounds

jbocre: 08:30 <ctino> Yeah, that's why I stopped complaining. Is that that's good enough for me. I was just trying to explain my whole POV.

jbocre: 08:31 <vensa> ksion: I dont know what "partial" dotside is. if you mean {coi la .laplas}, then no

jbocre: 08:31 <vensa> ctino: ok. so no agument :)

jbocre: 08:31 <ctino> Yup!

jbocre: 08:31 <vensa> ctino: did you read the CLL section I linked?

jbocre: 08:31 <ctino> No. I shall.

jbocre: 08:31 <vensa> ctino: you CAN use {la} or {doi} if you simply preced it with a consonant

jbocre: 08:31 <ctino> Oh, yes, I knew that.

jbocre: 08:32 <vensa> so it's exactly the same as requiring a consonant at the end of a vowel-ending name.

jbocre: 08:32 <vensa> so I dont see the big deal

jbocre: 08:32 <ctino> The problem is, yet again, it dilutes the name.

jbocre: 08:32 <vensa> and no reason to swtich to dotside

jbocre: 08:33 <vensa> is {slaplas} THAT diff from "laplas"?

jbocre: 08:33 <ctino> If my name is Lair, and I go to lojban and say "Cool, my name doesn't even need to change!" And then it has to become {slair} or something then it's a bit of an issue. In my mind.

jbocre: 08:33 <ctino> To me, yeah, it's a huge difference.

jbocre: 08:33 <ctino> But we all know I'm insane :)

jbocre: 08:33 <vensa> de'a jundi

jbocre: 08:35 <nouser> coi ro

jbocre: 08:35 <kucli> vensa: what does {de'a jundi} means?

jbocre: 08:35 <vensa> ctino: but dont you think it's pretty much the same thing as having to add a consonant to a name that ends in a vowel?

jbocre: 08:35 <vensa> it's even LESS frequent

jbocre: 08:35 <kucli> coi la nouser

jbocre: 08:35 <vensa> so y devise a whole method of dotside just for that silly thing?

jbocre: 08:36 == lindar jbocre: ~lindarthe@166.135.137.95 has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:36 <vensa> kucli: it means my attention is being paused, i.e. "brb"

jbocre: 08:36 <selckiku> ahh! that was quite relaxing

jbocre: 08:36 <selckiku> no one switched to my invention:

jbocre: 08:36 <ctino> I think the beginning is more important than the end. Because it's the first thing you hear, so more of your thoughts are attached to it.

jbocre: 08:36 <lindar> ?

jbocre: 08:36 <selckiku> di'a snuju'i

jbocre: 08:36 == Hugglesworth jbocre: ~raposa@S010600219be23dcb.lb.shawcable.net has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:36 <lindar> What're we talking about?

jbocre: 08:36 <selckiku> i think it's a pretty word, "snuju'i"

jbocre: 08:36 <vensa> ctino: baloni.

jbocre: 08:36 <ctino> lindar: dotside.

jbocre: 08:36 <selckiku> yeah, what are we talking about? i didn't really pay attention

jbocre: 08:36 <vensa> ctino: and the {la} can also be somewhere in the middle of the name

jbocre: 08:36 <kucli> coi la lindar

jbocre: 08:36 <lindar> ...huh.

jbocre: 08:37 <selckiku> i love dotside

jbocre: 08:37 <ctino> Yeah... I dunno. I think it messes the name up more than it needs to be mangled.

jbocre: 08:37 <ctino> selckiku: vensa doesn't :)

jbocre: 08:37 <vensa> that right. I dont! what you gonna do about it :P

jbocre: 08:37 <kucli> vensa: How can you say {keeping back my attention, i.e : i'm back}

jbocre: 08:37 <selckiku> you may have noticed i don't just pause, i also say the name with a different tone and rhythm, i make a little space for it

jbocre: 08:37 <lindar> ?

jbocre: 08:38 <vensa> kucli {di'a jundi}

jbocre: 08:38 <ctino> xD

jbocre: 08:38 <lindar> For those arguing with dotside: You're retarded. Shut up.

jbocre: 08:38 <lindar> Seriously.

jbocre: 08:38 <vensa> selckiku: that should be *allowed*, not *required*

jbocre: 08:38 <ctino> lindar: You're retarded. But you already knew that :)

jbocre: 08:38 <lindar> No, it -should- be required.

jbocre: 08:38 <selckiku> good luck never saying a name with "la" or "doi" in it! :P

jbocre: 08:38 <selckiku> we tried for years, and failed

jbocre: 08:39 <selckiku> we'd always be like, ooooops there's a "doi" in that name

jbocre: 08:39 <vensa> selkik: whats the problem with adding a consonant before the {la} or the {doi}?

jbocre: 08:39 <selckiku> or whatever was disallowed, i forget

jbocre: 08:39 <selckiku> "lai" isn't allowed i think-- as if anyone ever said "lai"!!

jbocre: 08:39 <vensa> u'i

jbocre: 08:39 <selckiku> vensa, huh? in the name you mean? that's not the nondotside rule, and i doubt you could make it parse unambiguously

jbocre: 08:40 <selckiku> mi pinxe lo bisli tcati

jbocre: 08:40 <@Broca> Did lindar use “arguing with” to mean “arguing against”?

jbocre: 08:40 <lindar> http://lojban.org/tiki/the+case+against+la <--- you should probably read this as it clearly explains why it's not optional.

jbocre: 08:40 <ctino> lindar: BTW, I really like your lojban game idea.

jbocre: 08:40 <lindar> ctino: Awesome. Contribute ideas. =D

jbocre: 08:40 <ctino> Broca: I think so... That's what tripped me up.

jbocre: 08:41 <selckiku> i think it's a good reward to give people titles

jbocre: 08:41 <vensa> selkik: you werent paying attention to the CLL link I provided

jbocre: 08:41 * lindar is like the new xorxes without the obnoxiousness and with less proficiency.

jbocre: 08:41 <selckiku> gives us something fun to talk about

jbocre: 08:41 <ctino> lindar: I will, if I think of any. Also props for reading Cracked.

jbocre: 08:41 <vensa> jbocre: 08:29 <vensa> http://dag.github.com/cll/4/8/

jbocre: 08:41 <vensa> 08:29] <vensa> "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."

jbocre: 08:41 <lindar> Well, a different KIND of obnoxiousness, anyway.

jbocre: 08:42 <selckiku> it's not just that we dislike that rule, vensa, it's that we *failed* at it

jbocre: 08:42 <vensa> selkik: thats your deficiency

jbocre: 08:42 <selckiku> lots of people who *wanted* to follow that rule tried, and were never able to! :)

jbocre: 08:42 <selckiku> it was before i was very active, so i didn't do much of the failing

jbocre: 08:42 <vensa> IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"

jbocre: 08:42 <vensa> lindar, ctino: what is this game?

jbocre: 08:44 <vensa> btw ctino: I think you DO need {la} after COI. it's only after DOI that it is permitted to be omitted

jbocre: 08:44 <lindar> There isn't any middle ground, I'm afraid. Is the phoneme-stream .mivIskalamArk. a big long cmene (of the first type, preceded by a pause), or is it mi viska la mark., ending on a cmene of the other type? It's one or the other. Besides, if people could remember to distinguish the two kinds of cmene, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

jbocre: 08:44 <ctino> lindar: Really...?

jbocre: 08:44 <selckiku> there's a printed nondotside error *in that very section*: Russian “Svetlana” sfietlanys.

jbocre: 08:44 <lindar> vensa: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/e0c88f79c4c7bf6f

jbocre: 08:44 <lindar> vensa: No, {doi} is part of COI.

jbocre: 08:44 <vensa> lindar: I still dont understand what you are arguing for and against

jbocre: 08:44 <vensa> lindar: duh, no!

jbocre: 08:44 <vensa> doi is DOI

jbocre: 08:45 <vensa> coi is COI

jbocre: 08:45 == Broca jbocre: arj@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no has quit jbocre: Ping timeout: 272 seconds

jbocre: 08:45 <lindar> ...

jbocre: 08:45 <lindar> That's weird.

jbocre: 08:45 <ctino> It's true.

jbocre: 08:45 <lindar> However, neither require LA.

jbocre: 08:45 <ctino> That's what I thought...

jbocre: 08:45 <vensa> selkik: y is that an error?

jbocre: 08:46 <ctino> I swear, these rules have to be SOMEWHERE written down...

jbocre: 08:46 <vensa> lindar: citation required

jbocre: 08:46 <selckiku> vensa, predotside names can't have "la" in them, like sfietLAnys does

jbocre: 08:46 <lindar> vensa: My boot up your arse.

jbocre: 08:46 <vensa> ctino: in this case they are. just have to find them :_)

jbocre: 08:46 * ctino roars

jbocre: 08:46 <vensa> selkik: they CAN!!!!! if they have a consonant b4 the LA

jbocre: 08:47 <vensa> becuz it cant break up

jbocre: 08:47 == aidalgol jbocre: ~user@114-134-7-235.rurallink.co.nz has quit jbocre: Ping timeout: 240 seconds

jbocre: 08:47 <vensa> becus theres no {.} after the {f}

jbocre: 08:47 <vensa> are you blind?

jbocre: 08:47 <vensa> .u'u

jbocre: 08:47 <vensa> lindar: this is where I quit paying attention to you

jbocre: 08:47 * lindar shrugs.

jbocre: 08:48 <lindar> I don't know where it's written down, but that's how it's used.

jbocre: 08:48 <selckiku> oh, is that the rule?? i dunno what the rule is b/c we never managed to follow the rule

jbocre: 08:48 <ctino> http://dag.github.com/cll/6/11/

jbocre: 08:48 <lindar> So, whether or not it's written down somewhere, that's how it's used.

jbocre: 08:48 <selckiku> it's silly to relitigate dotside

jbocre: 08:49 <vensa> selkik: it shouldnt be THAT hard.

jbocre: 08:49 <ctino> Is for elidability with COI and DOI.

jbocre: 08:49 <selckiku> there's so many unresolved things left to argue about

jbocre: 08:49 == MigoMipo jbocre: ~John@84-217-0-40.tn.glocalnet.net has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:49 <lindar> There we go.

jbocre: 08:49 <lindar> >.>

jbocre: 08:49 <kucli> lindar: I'm agree with vensa, like everybody, you need to provide proof

jbocre: 08:49 <vensa> so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?

jbocre: 08:49 <lindar> Seriously, though. Why are we discussing shit which is anciently old when we have bigger problems to worry about?

jbocre: 08:50 <lindar> >_>

jbocre: 08:50 <selckiku> it's funny how xorxes has adopted this policy of answering every question with two answers, the old official answer and the new xorxesese answer :D

jbocre: 08:50 <kucli> de'a jundi

jbocre: 08:50 <lindar> selkik: I actually find that annoying.

jbocre: 08:50 <selckiku> lindar, why's that?

jbocre: 08:50 <lindar> "Hey, how does X work?" "Well, if we accepted THIS proposal, it would work like *this*."

jbocre: 08:50 <ctino> xD

jbocre: 08:50 <vensa> until dotside becomes either official or officially banned, this discussion will always rerise when newcomers arrive

jbocre: 08:50 <ctino> He's campaigning.

jbocre: 08:50 <lindar> Yes, we get it xorxes, everything in Lojban is wrong.

jbocre: 08:51 <tomoj> vensa: "the case against 'la'"?

jbocre: 08:51 <selckiku> we're discussing these old things again because vensa is wrestling with learning lojban. that's what it's like when anyone learns lojban, as far as i can tell. you have to learn these controversies and internalize them. you form your opinions about things.

jbocre: 08:51 <tomoj> you think that is against dotside?

jbocre: 08:51 <lindar> "The case against 'la'." is the dotside proposal.

jbocre: 08:51 <lindar> >_>

jbocre: 08:51 <selckiku> lindar, he's not just complaining, he's respecting the way it is now enough to describe it, while also advocating how we can move forward. i think it's a reasonable compromise.

jbocre: 08:52 <jcowan> Dotside should become official. <-- ukase from former lojban tsar

jbocre: 08:52 <vensa> ctino: oh right. the diff between COI and DOI is that DOI doesnt require a pause B4 the bare cmevla

jbocre: 08:52 <ctino> :)

jbocre: 08:52 <vensa> tomoj: what does that mean?

jbocre: 08:52 <vensa> selkik: ie

jbocre: 08:52 <tomoj> <vensa> so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?

jbocre: 08:52 <tomoj>

jbocre: 08:52 <tomoj> responding to that

jbocre: 08:53 <vensa> tomoj: ki'e

jbocre: 08:53 <vensa> got it now

jbocre: 08:53 <tomoj> so with dotside does DOI merge with COI?

jbocre: 08:53 <vensa> so, tell lindar, that if he wants us to stop talking about dotside-or-not he should push to make it official

jbocre: 08:53 <tomoj> then you'd get {doi nai} too though

jbocre: 08:53 <selckiku> dotside is only annoying to do if you think of it as a mechanical rule.. i like to think of it as making sense

jbocre: 08:53 <vensa> nobody worries about xorlo anymore, since it's official

jbocre: 08:54 <ctino> "I'm not talking to you." {doi nai} hehe.

jbocre: 08:54 == Broca jbocre: arj@sprocket.nvg.ntnu.no has joined #lojban

jbocre: 08:54 == mode/#lojban +o Broca by ChanServ

jbocre: 08:54 == mode/#lojban +o Broca by ChanServ

jbocre: 08:54 <tomoj> vensa: did you read "The Case Against LA"?

jbocre: 08:54 <vensa> tomoj: no, I just read the headings

jbocre: 08:54 <tomoj> if you weren't convinced after that I'd be surprised

jbocre: 08:55 <vensa> theres toto much going on here right now for me to read it

jbocre: 08:55 <vensa> tomoj: I'm surprised that if it's so convincing,.... why isnt it official?!

jbocre: 08:55 <ctino> Because the lojban community is uber slow?

jbocre: 08:55 <selckiku> i think dotside can be a lot more beautiful than the old way.. it makes a little space for the name

jbocre: 08:55 <selckiku> visually i like the way it makes the name pop out

jbocre: 08:55 <vensa> selkik: I like to talk fast. sue me

jbocre: 08:56 <selckiku> it's like putting *stars* around something or "quotes", you put the .dots. and the name just looks .nameish.

jbocre: 08:56 <vensa> selkik: you should be allowed to do that. not required IMO

jbocre: 08:56 <selckiku> you only need to say a name once at most

jbocre: 08:56 <vensa> in speech it sucks IMO

jbocre: 08:56 <ctino> vensa: I like talking fast as well. But if you normally talk super fast then just slow down to normal speed when you say a name and it's all okay, no?

jbocre: 08:56 <vensa> not if I'm calling for someone who fails to hear me the first time

jbocre: 08:56 <selckiku> you can assign people pro-sumti

jbocre: 08:57 <selckiku> you can say pauses quickly.. they can be just a glottal stop

jbocre: 08:57 <vensa> doi .moder. doi .moder. doi .moder.

jbocre: 08:57 <selckiku> i've never really practiced saying dotside names quickly but i'm sure you could say them very quickly indeed if you practiced it

jbocre: 08:57 <ksion> Glottal stop is ugly.

jbocre: 08:57 <ctino> Calling their name quickly isn't going to make them notice you more... It's actually less likely they'll recognize their name.

jbocre: 08:58 == MigoMipo jbocre: ~John@84-217-0-40.tn.glocalnet.net has quit Remote host closed the connection

jbocre: 08:58 <selckiku> anyway where is everyone in such a hurry to get to these days

jbocre: 08:58 <tomoj> vensa: the point is, you will fuck up

jbocre: 08:58 <tomoj> dotside is much easier to get right

jbocre: 08:58 <selckiku> they just want to get their lojban done in as few superfast syllables as possible and move on to other things

jbocre: 08:59 <vensa> hehe

jbocre: 08:59 <selckiku> i like a nice relaxing time saying something in lojban! why hurry to something else!

jbocre: 08:59 <vensa> selkik: if you want it to be a practical language, you also need brevity

jbocre: 08:59 <selckiku> lack of brevity is so far from lojban's main practical problem

jbocre: 08:59 <vensa> tomoj: I dont think it would be that hard to go by without dotside

jbocre: 08:59 <selckiku> lack of vocabulary is more like it

jbocre: 09:00 <tomoj> you're wrong

jbocre: 09:00 <selckiku> rich vocabulary adds tremendously to brevity, because you can use appropriate words

jbocre: 09:00 <tomoj> it's demonstrably hard to go by

jbocre: 09:00 <vensa> jbocre: 08:42 <vensa> IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"

jbocre: 09:00 <ctino> This reminds me that I want there to be a lojban band.

jbocre: 09:00 <selckiku> it's not just people's names, we're always inventing names on the fly, names of cities, names of historical figures, etc

jbocre: 09:01 <vensa> selkik: hmmm

jbocre: 09:02 <ksion> selckiku: Then just learn to form them. It's not rocket science.

jbocre: 09:02 <tomoj> an example from the essay is "la stivn. laitl."

jbocre: 09:02 <tomoj> I certainly wouldn't have noticed the error

jbocre: 09:03 <ctino> I didn't notice it until you pointed it our -_-;;

jbocre: 09:03 <ctino> *out

jbocre: 09:03 <tomoj> I think you should be required to read "The Case Against LA" before arguing about dotside :)

jbocre: 09:03 <vensa> tomoj: I think dotside should be made official if it's such a good thing

jbocre: 09:04 <selckiku> dotside is perfectly official

jbocre: 09:04 <tomoj> me too

jbocre: 09:04 <vensa> but I intend to read it as soon as this argument dies down

jbocre: 09:04 <vensa> selkik: citation neede

jbocre: 09:04 <selckiku> it's just that there's nobody in charge of lojban these days except us chickens

jbocre: 09:04 <ctino> selckiku: ??

jbocre: 09:04 <vensa> hehe

jbocre: 09:04 <selckiku> the BPFK apparently has abdicated their authority because they're busy writing a book or something

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