dotside or Not?

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ctino coi .vensa.
selckiku coi la ctino
ctino coi .selkik.
vensa .oi mi xebni la'oi dotside
vensa .ije mi jinvi lodu'u za'o bilga lonu pilno zo la
ctino .i mi nelci la'oi dotside
vensa doi la ctino .i e'o ko stidi tu'a lo cmica'o be zoi gy This feels strange to me gy be'o .e lo cmica'o be zo'oi dissatisfaction
vensa ca'e la'oi dotside cu na'e se catni
ctino shrugs
ctino My lojban is not anywhere near good enough to continue that conversation -_-;;
vensa .uu
vensa xu do pu jimpe fi lo mi preti
ctino .u'u na go'i
vensa I asked you to propose an attitudinal for "this feels strange" and for "dissatisfaction"
mashers coi
ctino Ah.
ctino .u'i
ctino coi .macers.
mashers coi .ctino.
ctino So why don't you like dotside, vensa?
mashers Just got a quick question about pronunciation
vensa ctino: becuz it's not official
vensa and becuz it makes for too much unneccesary pausing IMO
vensa mashers: ask away
mashers Am I correct in thinking that, e.g. tavla, should be pronounced with both vowels the same like the vowel in car, rather than with the second vowel as a schwa?
vensa ctino: remind me what dotside comes to solve again? dont you still need to say {la} in front of a selbri name?
vensa mashers: yes. all lojban letters should sound the same, no matter where they are in the word
ctino vensa: It removes the requirement of disallowing { la, le, lo, etc.} from names.
vensa the thing with selbri, however, is that you must stress the penultimate syllable
vensa so {tavla} should be ponounced {TAVla} and not {tavLA}
vensa ctino: oh right. just {la} and {doi} tho
ctino Right. Them thingies.
mashers Ok thanks. To my English tongue, it feels more natural to pronounce words ending with "a" with a schwa at the end, buy I guess that would be tavly :)
vensa ctino: but u still have to say {la} in front of selbri names. because even without dotside i *might* pause before and after a selbri.
ctino Dotside isn't applied to selbri names, I believe.
vensa ctino: y? do you have so many names that require {doi} and {la} in them?
ctino And you still have to say {la} in any case.
ctino Because I like having as much flexibility in the language as possible.
vensa .ie
kucli coi ro do
ctino I think it makes it richer
ctino coi .kucli.
vensa hmm... wasnt there a different approach to also allow {la} and {doi} in names?
ctino I don't know...
vensa coi ba'ei LAAAAAAA kucli
ctino All I know is xorlo.
kucli u'i
vensa ctino: y do u insist then to nat say {la}?
kucli vensa: do cinmo ma
ksion coi la vensa .e ro drata nalselrinsa be mi
ctino La isn't required after a COI
vensa coi la ksion .i mi na pu djuno lodu'u do zvati .u'u
mashers {ro do} = "all you" = everyone?
vensa citno: it IS required for SELBRI NAMES!
vensa *ctino
ksion u'unaidai
ctino mashers: Yes.
vensa doi la kucli mi cinmo loka fengu la ctino .u'i
mashers Thanks :)
kucli vensa: u'icai
ctino mashers: No problem.
kucli vensa: just for a {la} ?
vensa ksion: what was the other alternative to dotside for allowing {la} and {doi} in cmevla?
ctino vensa: I still haven't gotten used to noticing if something's a selbri or not.
vensa ctino: it's VERY simple. if it ends with a vowel - its a selbri
vensa thats it
ksion vensa: No idea.
ctino vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve...
vensa kucli: I am a man of principles. yes.
vensa ctino: tough luck. but thats one of the things I'm willing to give up on for the gratification of such a beautiful, unambiguos language
ctino sighs
vensa and besides: ending with an {s} doesnt sound too much diff
ctino Yeah, I suppose.
kucli ctino: i don't think it can be is an important rule that give unambiguity
ctino :\
ctino Oh well. I can overlook it.
vensa ctino: in many languages you are required to pronounce your name differently because of restriction in that languages dialect
mashers co'o ro do
ctino But that's why I like dotside. Because it allows for just that little bit more flexibility.
ctino co'o .macers.
vensa ctino: I'm still investigating the dotside issue. I'm sure there is another way
ctino But if it were better why wouldn't it be the one we're trying to get instantiated?
ctino Just because there's another way doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
vensa true
ctino shrugs
vensa first let me recall the way
vensa then Ill remember why I was opposed to dotside
vensa and an advocate of the other way
ctino Then we can debate its merits.
ctino Mhmm
kucli ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?
kucli ctino: I think {la'oi} is the best way...
vensa kucli: he said nothing to that end. you got it wrong
kucli <ctino> vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve..
kucli did i missunderstood?
vensa <kucli> ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?
vensa that aint the same thing. its the opposite
kucli Actually, yes -_-
kucli u'u
vensa besides: he already accepted the "ending of vowel names with a consonant". it's the {la}\{doi} restriction we're trying to fix now
kucli what restriction is it?
ctino One of the things that attracted me to lojban was that supposedly it's made to allow for the very direct transfer of intention, through completely unambiguous grammar. A big part of a person is their name. And when you're discussing someone I like to be able to actually say their name. Not some close approximation. If the name is in japanese I say it /in japanese/. If it's in hebrew I do the same. So that's the long winded version that it
ctino appears you don't need anymore because you moved on while I was typing :)
ksion vensa: Doesn't partial dotside after COI and DOI fix the issue?
vensa "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."
vensa ctino: so you can always say {la'oi} and after that you can even utter a name that contains bushmanian click sounds
ctino Yeah, that's why I stopped complaining. Is that that's good enough for me. I was just trying to explain my whole POV.
vensa ksion: I dont know what "partial" dotside is. if you mean {coi la .laplas}, then no
vensa ctino: ok. so no agument :)
ctino Yup!
vensa ctino: did you read the CLL section I linked?
ctino No. I shall.
vensa ctino: you CAN use {la} or {doi} if you simply preced it with a consonant
ctino Oh, yes, I knew that.
vensa so it's exactly the same as requiring a consonant at the end of a vowel-ending name.
vensa so I dont see the big deal
ctino The problem is, yet again, it dilutes the name.
vensa and no reason to swtich to dotside
vensa is {slaplas} THAT diff from "laplas"?
ctino If my name is Lair, and I go to lojban and say "Cool, my name doesn't even need to change!" And then it has to become {slair} or something then it's a bit of an issue. In my mind.
ctino To me, yeah, it's a huge difference.
ctino But we all know I'm insane :)
vensa de'a jundi
nouser coi ro
kucli vensa: what does {de'a jundi} means?
vensa ctino: but dont you think it's pretty much the same thing as having to add a consonant to a name that ends in a vowel?
vensa it's even LESS frequent
kucli coi la nouser
vensa so y devise a whole method of dotside just for that silly thing?
vensa kucli: it means my attention is being paused, i.e. "brb"
selckiku no one switched to my invention:
ctino I think the beginning is more important than the end. Because it's the first thing you hear, so more of your thoughts are attached to it.
lindar ?
selckiku di'a snuju'i
lindar What're we talking about?
selckiku i think it's a pretty word, "snuju'i"
vensa ctino: baloni.
ctino lindar: dotside.
selckiku yeah, what are we talking about? i didn't really pay attention
vensa ctino: and the {la} can also be somewhere in the middle of the name
kucli coi la lindar
lindar ...huh.
selckiku i love dotside
ctino Yeah... I dunno. I think it messes the name up more than it needs to be mangled.
ctino selckiku: vensa doesn't :)
vensa that right. I dont! what you gonna do about it :P
kucli vensa: How can you say {keeping back my attention, i.e : i'm back}
selckiku you may have noticed i don't just pause, i also say the name with a different tone and rhythm, i make a little space for it
lindar ?
vensa kucli {di'a jundi}
ctino xD
lindar For those arguing with dotside: You're retarded. Shut up.
lindar Seriously.
vensa selckiku: that should be *allowed*, not *required*
ctino lindar: You're retarded. But you already knew that :)
lindar No, it -should- be required.
selckiku good luck never saying a name with "la" or "doi" in it! :P
selckiku we tried for years, and failed
selckiku we'd always be like, ooooops there's a "doi" in that name
vensa selkik: whats the problem with adding a consonant before the {la} or the {doi}?
selckiku or whatever was disallowed, i forget
selckiku "lai" isn't allowed i think-- as if anyone ever said "lai"!!
vensa u'i
selckiku vensa, huh? in the name you mean? that's not the nondotside rule, and i doubt you could make it parse unambiguously
selckiku mi pinxe lo bisli tcati
@Broca Did lindar use “arguing with” to mean “arguing against”?
lindar <--- you should probably read this as it clearly explains why it's not optional.
ctino lindar: BTW, I really like your lojban game idea.
lindar ctino: Awesome. Contribute ideas. =D
ctino Broca: I think so... That's what tripped me up.
selckiku i think it's a good reward to give people titles
vensa selkik: you werent paying attention to the CLL link I provided
lindar is like the new xorxes without the obnoxiousness and with less proficiency.
selckiku gives us something fun to talk about
ctino lindar: I will, if I think of any. Also props for reading Cracked.
vensa <vensa>
vensa <vensa> "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."
lindar Well, a different KIND of obnoxiousness, anyway.
selckiku it's not just that we dislike that rule, vensa, it's that we *failed* at it
vensa selkik: thats your deficiency
selckiku lots of people who *wanted* to follow that rule tried, and were never able to! :)
selckiku it was before i was very active, so i didn't do much of the failing
vensa IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"
vensa lindar, ctino: what is this game?
vensa btw ctino: I think you DO need {la} after COI. it's only after DOI that it is permitted to be omitted
lindar There isn't any middle ground, I'm afraid. Is the phoneme-stream .mivIskalamArk. a big long cmene (of the first type, preceded by a pause), or is it mi viska la mark., ending on a cmene of the other type? It's one or the other. Besides, if people could remember to distinguish the two kinds of cmene, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.
ctino lindar: Really...?
selckiku there's a printed nondotside error *in that very section*: Russian “Svetlana” sfietlanys.
lindar vensa:
lindar vensa: No, {doi} is part of COI.
vensa lindar: I still dont understand what you are arguing for and against
vensa lindar: duh, no!
vensa doi is DOI
vensa coi is COI
lindar ...
lindar That's weird.
ctino It's true.
lindar However, neither require LA.
ctino That's what I thought...
vensa selkik: y is that an error?
ctino I swear, these rules have to be SOMEWHERE written down...
vensa lindar: citation required
selckiku vensa, predotside names can't have "la" in them, like sfietLAnys does
lindar vensa: My boot up your arse.
vensa ctino: in this case they are. just have to find them :_)
ctino roars
vensa selkik: they CAN!!!!! if they have a consonant b4 the LA
vensa becuz it cant break up
vensa becus theres no {.} after the {f}
vensa are you blind?
vensa .u'u
lindar shrugs.
lindar I don't know where it's written down, but that's how it's used.
selckiku oh, is that the rule?? i dunno what the rule is b/c we never managed to follow the rule
lindar So, whether or not it's written down somewhere, that's how it's used.
selckiku it's silly to relitigate dotside
vensa selkik: it shouldnt be THAT hard.
ctino Is for elidability with COI and DOI.
selckiku there's so many unresolved things left to argue about
lindar There we go.
lindar >.>
kucli lindar: I'm agree with vensa, like everybody, you need to provide proof
vensa so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?
lindar Seriously, though. Why are we discussing shit which is anciently old when we have bigger problems to worry about?
lindar >_>
selckiku it's funny how xorxes has adopted this policy of answering every question with two answers, the old official answer and the new xorxesese answer :D
kucli de'a jundi
lindar selkik: I actually find that annoying.
selckiku lindar, why's that?
lindar "Hey, how does X work?" "Well, if we accepted THIS proposal, it would work like *this*."
ctino xD
vensa until dotside becomes either official or officially banned, this discussion will always rerise when newcomers arrive
ctino He's campaigning.
lindar Yes, we get it xorxes, everything in Lojban is wrong.
tomoj vensa: "the case against 'la'"?
selckiku we're discussing these old things again because vensa is wrestling with learning lojban. that's what it's like when anyone learns lojban, as far as i can tell. you have to learn these controversies and internalize them. you form your opinions about things.
tomoj you think that is against dotside?
lindar "The case against 'la'." is the dotside proposal.
lindar >_>
selckiku lindar, he's not just complaining, he's respecting the way it is now enough to describe it, while also advocating how we can move forward. i think it's a reasonable compromise.
jcowan Dotside should become official. <-- ukase from former lojban tsar
vensa ctino: oh right. the diff between COI and DOI is that DOI doesnt require a pause B4 the bare cmevla
ctino :)
vensa tomoj: what does that mean?
vensa selkik: ie
tomoj <vensa> so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?
tomoj responding to that
vensa tomoj: ki'e
vensa got it now
tomoj so with dotside does DOI merge with COI?
vensa so, tell lindar, that if he wants us to stop talking about dotside-or-not he should push to make it official
tomoj then you'd get {doi nai} too though
selckiku dotside is only annoying to do if you think of it as a mechanical rule.. i like to think of it as making sense
vensa nobody worries about xorlo anymore, since it's official
ctino "I'm not talking to you." {doi nai} hehe.
tomoj vensa: did you read "The Case Against LA"?
vensa tomoj: no, I just read the headings
tomoj if you weren't convinced after that I'd be surprised
vensa theres toto much going on here right now for me to read it
vensa tomoj: I'm surprised that if it's so convincing,.... why isnt it official?!
ctino Because the lojban community is uber slow?
selckiku i think dotside can be a lot more beautiful than the old way.. it makes a little space for the name
selckiku visually i like the way it makes the name pop out
vensa selkik: I like to talk fast. sue me
selckiku it's like putting *stars* around something or "quotes", you put the .dots. and the name just looks .nameish.
vensa selkik: you should be allowed to do that. not required IMO
selckiku you only need to say a name once at most
vensa in speech it sucks IMO
ctino vensa: I like talking fast as well. But if you normally talk super fast then just slow down to normal speed when you say a name and it's all okay, no?
vensa not if I'm calling for someone who fails to hear me the first time
selckiku you can assign people pro-sumti
selckiku you can say pauses quickly.. they can be just a glottal stop
vensa doi .moder. doi .moder. doi .moder.
selckiku i've never really practiced saying dotside names quickly but i'm sure you could say them very quickly indeed if you practiced it
ksion Glottal stop is ugly.
ctino Calling their name quickly isn't going to make them notice you more... It's actually less likely they'll recognize their name.
selckiku anyway where is everyone in such a hurry to get to these days
tomoj vensa: the point is, you will fuck up
tomoj dotside is much easier to get right
selckiku they just want to get their lojban done in as few superfast syllables as possible and move on to other things
vensa hehe
selckiku i like a nice relaxing time saying something in lojban! why hurry to something else!
vensa selkik: if you want it to be a practical language, you also need brevity
selckiku lack of brevity is so far from lojban's main practical problem
vensa tomoj: I dont think it would be that hard to go by without dotside
selckiku lack of vocabulary is more like it
tomoj you're wrong
selckiku rich vocabulary adds tremendously to brevity, because you can use appropriate words
tomoj it's demonstrably hard to go by
vensa <vensa> IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"
ctino This reminds me that I want there to be a lojban band.
selckiku it's not just people's names, we're always inventing names on the fly, names of cities, names of historical figures, etc
vensa selkik: hmmm
ksion selckiku: Then just learn to form them. It's not rocket science.
tomoj an example from the essay is "la stivn. laitl."
tomoj I certainly wouldn't have noticed the error
ctino I didn't notice it until you pointed it our -_-;;
ctino *out
tomoj I think you should be required to read "The Case Against LA" before arguing about dotside :)
vensa tomoj: I think dotside should be made official if it's such a good thing
selckiku dotside is perfectly official
tomoj me too
vensa but I intend to read it as soon as this argument dies down
vensa selkik: citation neede
selckiku it's just that there's nobody in charge of lojban these days except us chickens
ctino selckiku: ??
vensa hehe
selckiku the BPFK apparently has abdicated their authority because they're busy writing a book or something