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[[jbocre: ckinytadji|ckinytadji]]
[[Lojban podcast|Lojban podcast]], number one - http://www.nemorathwald.com/lojban/0001_jbocradi_091705.mp3


How can we express "Too many goals means too few accomplishments" in a quantitative form?
Hello, and welcome to the first lojbanic broadcast of the first lojbanic broadcaster! coi .i fi'i do le pa moi jbocradi le pa moi


* The fact that all of us are having such trouble with a quantity relationship shows the sorry state of development of the quantitative potentials of Lojban. This is a shame, because of all languages, Lojban offers the greatest power of clean handling of functional relationships. What we are doing here is relying on a natlang idiom of using a single extreme point to define a function. Here, we are saying "Given the axes of terzu'e and selsnada, there exists a point with very positive tezu'e and very negative selsnada". That natlang idiom was undoubtedly developed in the mists of mathematical ignorance, millenia before the discovery of Calculus. Lojban lets us precisely define the actual function: '''li ni'u cu parbi le'i terzu'e le'i selsnada''' This is Lojban's real strength. --[[User:xod|xod]]
This is a computer audio periodical .i ti skami sance karni


** Let me try: ''lo roroi jdika ca'a fancu le'i terzukmei le'i selsadmei''Literally: "An always-decreasing thing is an actual function from the set of how-many-goals to the set of how-many-successes." How's that? (It doesn't mean quite the same thing as the original was meant to.)
for speakers and enthusiasts fo lo tavla je se cinri
*** Pretty good! Except le fancu is the function's name, and the expression is the velfancu. And I'll throw in a ni because it feels right. So, I would try ''fancu le'i terzukmei le'i selsadmei le ni ce'u roroi jdika'' --[[User:xod|xod]]


***"Always" is of course metaphorical here, right? There is no time involved.As for -''mei'', I have used it to distinguish ''pa valsi'', one word, from the concept of ''pa vlamei'', one wordage, one mass of words. Here it seems to be used as a number, i.e. ''lo terzukmei'' as the number of goals, but that is not what ''mei'' means ordinarily. ''lo remei'' is a pair, not the number 2.
of Lojban, the logical language. po la lojban po'u le logji bangu
*** '''Experimental suggestion:''' Let roi and all tense refer to whatever reference frame is given for the bridi or context. Default = time. In this case, to make "roroi" fit our discussion, we could use ''ma'iki le terzukmei ku fa'u le selsadmei'' -- [[User:xod|xod]]


** So the idea proposed is that zero goals will give the highest number of accomplishments, and as you increase the number of goals, the number of accomplishments decreases. The proposed function is something like:A(G) = M - K*Gwhere A = number of accomplishments, M = maximum number of accomplishments, G = number of goals, K = some constant.
September 17, 2005. detri li so pi'e paze pi'e renonomu
** It seems to me that "too many goals means too few accomplishments" suggests that for a reasonable number of goals, the number of accomplishments would grow proportionately with that of goals, but if you exceed that reasonable number (too many) then the number of accomplishments starts to lag behind (too few).


*** Agreed, but I couldn't think of a short way to say it with ''fancu''. ''.i ko stidi''
This episode will feature:
*** .iecai this formula is better. selsnada(terzu'e) increases linearly going rightward from the origin, until it hits the maximum, where it decreases (one assumes asymptotically?) back down to zero as the terzu'e goes to positive infinity. '''We really need an elegant, concise way to describe this behavior'''. --[[User:xod|xod]]


*****''le se klani be lei selsnada cu kansa le se klani be lei terzu'e le ka banro kei ze'a le nu le remoi na dukse iku'ibabo le pamoi co'a je ca'o jdika''"The number of accomplishments accompanies the number of goals in growth while the latter is not excessive. But afterwards, the former starts and continues to decrease." --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
Pronouncing "e"


** I'll try again: ''da poi fancu le'i terzukmei le'i selsadmei zo'u li na'u me da du'e du li mo'a''
Phrasebook part 1
*** Question: Is there a better construction to turn ''da'' syntactically into an operator? ''li na'u me da'' seems clumsy. Hmm, maybe it works if we use a name ''fy.'' instead of ''da''.


**** ma'o da = The function "da"
Conlang of the Month Club
**** Thanks! ''fy. fancu lo'i terzukmei lo'i selsadmei .ije li ma'o fy.boi du'e du li mo'a''


**** Now, how does this work? f(t, s) du'e = mo'a? I don't quite understand.
I'm your host [[Matt Arnold|Matt Arnold]], mi'e mat.arnold
**** There exists a function f from terzukmei to selsadmei such that f(too many) = too few.


*** How would you feel about le terzuklai?
known to the Lojban community as Eppcott. poi la .epkat cmene mi le lojbo cecmu
**** But we're talking about numbers, ''se klani'', not about space-time objects, ''klani'', aren't we? ''li du'e se klani gi'enai klani'' --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]


**** We need a concise way to refer to the count of a referent. Since -lai is a lujvo, its meaning can be stretched to be exactly what we are busting our heads trying to come up with here. "le se klani be lei broda" is way too chewy.
This broadcast gives us an opportunity to hear each other speak Lojban, many of us for the first time. We may be surprised at what we hear! Is it just me, or have you ever had trouble pronouncing e in Lojban when it comes before r? {e} is always to be pronounced "eh", and usually this is easy. But if you're not careful, words like {lerfu} (spelled l-e-r-f-u, meaning "alphabetical character"), {verba} (spelled v-e-r-b-a, meaning "child"), or {kerlo} (spelled k-e-r-l-o, meaning "ear"), sometimes sound like they are spelled {lyrfu}, {vyrba}, {kyrlo}, with the "uh" sound. For that sound, Lojban uses the letter y, and then it wouldn't be a real word. "e" before r might also sound like a syllabic {r} and wouldn't sound like a vowel at all. Is this only a problem for native English-speakers? Personally, to give it enough distinction, I try to pronounce it very closely to the e in "ehr-ror," "A-meh-ri-can," or "eh-ra." {lerfu}, {verba}, {kerlo}, without overpronouncing it or allowing the "ee" sound to creep in at the end of the vowel. Again, slurring vowels is possibly an English language phenomenon since most other languages tend to pronouce pure vowels. What do you think?
***** I feel uncomfortable using ''-lai'' as a rafsi for ''se klani'', but if you like it go ahead and try it. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]


****However it remains true that a set is never "big" nor "small"; its cardinality is. So I think it can be argued that the Book offers usage that paves the way for context to enable the replacement of a set-reference with a cardinality-reference. No examples of ambiguity have yet been offered to contradict this usage, and usage of sets in general is historically underexplored, so new usages may arise and should not be suppressed apriori.
Phrasebook Part 1: Simple Phrases.
*****Let a thousand flowers bloom, even if they make no sense to me. I can live with it.


*** ''le'i ni terzu'e'' should be "the set of quantities of terzu'e". No?
A new sentence in Lojban is begun with the word {.i}.
**** Above, Jorge writes that ''"le ni ce'u me le'i broda" is... the extent to which something is a set, a totally different thing from the cardinality of the set. '' What would that make "le'i ni terzu'e"?


**** ''le gencku cu cusku di'e'' - ''ni'' means "x1 is the amount of (the bridi) on scale x2." A quantity is a measured amount; if necessary for precision, we can specify that using ''ni'' x2. In other words, ''ni'' has a meaning vague between "the degree to which ..." and "the number of ..." (and other kinds of amounts), but you can specify if you need to.
How do you say "yes" in Lojban in response to a true-or-false question?
***** I'm not sure exactly how, though. ''le'i ni terzu'e kei be ma''


*** One more problem: This only says that such a function exists--which isn't saying much! For precision, we should add that this function describes the real world.
.i go'i a pronoun which stands for the last thing that was said; go'i "yes"
**** I think if you assert a relationship between two real (da'inai) entities, you're asserting that the entities obey the relationship.


***** In the context of [[jbocre: LojbanAphorisms|LojbanAphorisms]], sure, everyone will assume that. But not in the context of [[jbocre: cmaci|cmaci]]! ''But in the context of cmaci, x and y are da'i. In a discussion about da'inai selsnada and da'inai terzu'e, the le xusra of a le fancu is trying to discuss reality.'' .ienaisai A function is a mathematical object in its own right, and to assert that one exists (whether or not it relates actual da'inai values) is to say exactly nothing about the real world. Otherwise all theories would be true! ''Do you assert a relationship between smoking and lung cancer? Do you assert a relationship between underwear color and lung cancer?'' '''''| if you're a chaotician, yes ;-) |'''''
How do you say "no" in Lojban in response to a true-or-false question?
***** We should think twice before relying on such natural language assumptions in Lojban. It depends on how exact we want to be. ''If we want to purge all inherited natlang ghosts, let's rely solely on da'i and da'inai to specify hypotheticality. But I should think, in a discussion about toast and jelly, that if someone claims there is a relationship between the two, that they feel there actually "is" such a relationship, even it's being assumed only for the sake of argument (ru'a). If the level of assertion isn't even this strong, I can't imagine what it would mean to bother stating anything. --[[User:xod|xod]]''


----
.i na go'i "no" na go'i


''Meta: I now agree with Jorge, that lo'i broda should not have the default meaning of le brodylai --xod''
Please.
 
.i pe'u do "please" pe'u "please"
 
Thank you.
 
.i ki'e do "thank you" ki'e "thanks"
 
Thank you very much.
 
.i ki'e sai do "thank you very much" ki'e sai "thanks very much"
 
That's all right/You're welcome
 
.i je'e do "you're welcome" je'e do "you're welcome"
 
I love you.
 
.i mi prami do "I love you" prami "love"
 
When someone is using a vaccuum cleaner during a Lojban podcast, you say {cladu}, "LOUD"!
 
It's preferable during a Lojban podcast to have {smaji}, "quiet."
 
Jeffrey Henning's blog entry of August 23 on Langmaker.com titled "Conlang of the Month Club" suggested that enthusiasts pick one constructed language to study and use in October for 15 minutes a day. Lojban was among the suggested languages, and of course on jbocradi we want that to be your choice. But then Henning posed a question that stumped me. There is something the listed conlangs have in common that the conlangs Henning excluded lack. What is it? Here is the list: Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua, Interlingue, Klingon, Lojban, Toki Pona or Volapük. Again, there is something the listed conlangs have in common that the conlangs Henning excluded lack. What is it? If Henning reveals the answer next month, I'll include it in our next broadcast. In the meantime, go to Langmaker.com and submit your guess!
 
This episode was brought to you by the following gismu:
 
prami  x1 loves x2
 
cladu  x1 is loud or noisy at observation point x2 by standard x3
 
smaji  x1 is quiet, silent or still at observation point x2 by standard x3
 
And by the following cmavo:
 
go'i  yes
 
pe'u  please
 
ki'e  thank you
 
je'e  you're welcome
 
Your participation is welcomed! Please e-mail new material, questions, or corrections to the Lojban main mailing list at lojban-list@lojban.org. For more information, see the Lojban website at www.lojban.org. Thanks for downloading Lojban radio. Til' next time, this is epkat saying, co'o !

Latest revision as of 14:49, 23 March 2014

Lojban podcast, number one - http://www.nemorathwald.com/lojban/0001_jbocradi_091705.mp3

Hello, and welcome to the first lojbanic broadcast of the first lojbanic broadcaster! coi .i fi'i do le pa moi jbocradi le pa moi

This is a computer audio periodical .i ti skami sance karni

for speakers and enthusiasts fo lo tavla je se cinri

of Lojban, the logical language. po la lojban po'u le logji bangu

September 17, 2005. detri li so pi'e paze pi'e renonomu

This episode will feature:

Pronouncing "e"

Phrasebook part 1

Conlang of the Month Club

I'm your host Matt Arnold, mi'e mat.arnold

known to the Lojban community as Eppcott. poi la .epkat cmene mi le lojbo cecmu

This broadcast gives us an opportunity to hear each other speak Lojban, many of us for the first time. We may be surprised at what we hear! Is it just me, or have you ever had trouble pronouncing e in Lojban when it comes before r? {e} is always to be pronounced "eh", and usually this is easy. But if you're not careful, words like {lerfu} (spelled l-e-r-f-u, meaning "alphabetical character"), {verba} (spelled v-e-r-b-a, meaning "child"), or {kerlo} (spelled k-e-r-l-o, meaning "ear"), sometimes sound like they are spelled {lyrfu}, {vyrba}, {kyrlo}, with the "uh" sound. For that sound, Lojban uses the letter y, and then it wouldn't be a real word. "e" before r might also sound like a syllabic {r} and wouldn't sound like a vowel at all. Is this only a problem for native English-speakers? Personally, to give it enough distinction, I try to pronounce it very closely to the e in "ehr-ror," "A-meh-ri-can," or "eh-ra." {lerfu}, {verba}, {kerlo}, without overpronouncing it or allowing the "ee" sound to creep in at the end of the vowel. Again, slurring vowels is possibly an English language phenomenon since most other languages tend to pronouce pure vowels. What do you think?

Phrasebook Part 1: Simple Phrases.

A new sentence in Lojban is begun with the word {.i}.

How do you say "yes" in Lojban in response to a true-or-false question?

.i go'i a pronoun which stands for the last thing that was said; go'i "yes"

How do you say "no" in Lojban in response to a true-or-false question?

.i na go'i "no" na go'i

Please.

.i pe'u do "please" pe'u "please"

Thank you.

.i ki'e do "thank you" ki'e "thanks"

Thank you very much.

.i ki'e sai do "thank you very much" ki'e sai "thanks very much"

That's all right/You're welcome

.i je'e do "you're welcome" je'e do "you're welcome"

I love you.

.i mi prami do "I love you" prami "love"

When someone is using a vaccuum cleaner during a Lojban podcast, you say {cladu}, "LOUD"!

It's preferable during a Lojban podcast to have {smaji}, "quiet."

Jeffrey Henning's blog entry of August 23 on Langmaker.com titled "Conlang of the Month Club" suggested that enthusiasts pick one constructed language to study and use in October for 15 minutes a day. Lojban was among the suggested languages, and of course on jbocradi we want that to be your choice. But then Henning posed a question that stumped me. There is something the listed conlangs have in common that the conlangs Henning excluded lack. What is it? Here is the list: Esperanto, Ido, Interlingua, Interlingue, Klingon, Lojban, Toki Pona or Volapük. Again, there is something the listed conlangs have in common that the conlangs Henning excluded lack. What is it? If Henning reveals the answer next month, I'll include it in our next broadcast. In the meantime, go to Langmaker.com and submit your guess!

This episode was brought to you by the following gismu:

prami x1 loves x2

cladu x1 is loud or noisy at observation point x2 by standard x3

smaji x1 is quiet, silent or still at observation point x2 by standard x3

And by the following cmavo:

go'i yes

pe'u please

ki'e thank you

je'e you're welcome

Your participation is welcomed! Please e-mail new material, questions, or corrections to the Lojban main mailing list at lojban-list@lojban.org. For more information, see the Lojban website at www.lojban.org. Thanks for downloading Lojban radio. Til' next time, this is epkat saying, co'o !

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