gismu rant: Difference between revisions

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* If the original purpose of Lojban is to test the [[Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis|Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis]], which is that a language shapes the thoughts of its speakers, and most of the gismu are relations with English-worded definitions, isn't Lojban inevitably just as restrictive as English is as far as vocabulary is concerned?
*.i ckafi najo tcati ''That means (something) is coffee or tea, but not both.'' Context, of course, indicates that the something is the drink under question!
** No. The definitions include clarifiers that, for instance, '''salci''' (''celebrate'') includes funerals.
 
** [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]
''It's almost an exact translation of 'coffee or tea', which is what the phrase gets quickly reduced to in usage. In the context of somebody serving drinks, it's perfectly clear.''
*** One can attempt to define, say, Japanese words in English, but just because you learn the English definition doesn't mean you truly grasp the nuances of the Japanese word. As, I think, xod also believes, we are in the process of discovering the nuances of the words. The definitions of the words in the gismu list aren't the real meanings of the words, merely that which can be encoded in English.
 
** Huh? Why? Not that many of the gismu correspond closely with any English word; they tend to have broader meanings. Dictionary "definitions", including the gismu definitions, are not mathematical definitions, but more like indications of the typical meanings. The real meanings live in that mushy stuff in people's heads.
It might be clear since there aren't many other possibilities, but it's not really accurate. If you want to use a form like that, ''ckafi je'i tcati'' is better, since at least it asks a question.
** [[jezrax|jezrax:]]
 
*** This is an absolutist argument. If it held in the strong sense, then the only way to create a truly artificial [[conlang|conlang]] would be to base it on a theory which could not be described in a natural language at all! Otherwise you could say that, after all, it was only an encoding of its natural language description, and not "artificial" at all.
''How about adding .aupei, to indicate that the bridi questions a desire of the listener, which sufficiently contextualizes the zo'es.'' I still don't like the ''najo'', but it's better.
** But there is indeed a sense in which this is a valid concern. If a person only learns [[gismu|gismu]] by the keyword and not by the [[sumti|sumti]], they will become an un-[[lobykai|lobykai]] user of Lojban, and their jbosku will tend to resemble encoded English. All of us, in truth, start that way. But after you have begun to learn to distinguish gismu with similar-meaning English keywords, their true meanings will more and more influence your usage. This is not, however, an especially [[Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis|Whorfish]] effect--yet. That will only occur when you are [[bellyfeel|perceiving]] in terms of those relationships...
 
*.i pau do djica tu'a loi ckafi je'i tcati
 
Possible answers are: naje (the second), jenai (the first), je (both), ja (or, not helpful), joi (mixed together, yum).
 
''And to which i answer, "go'i".''
 
* .u'i you can do that to the English, too. I once took a math course from a teacher who had some rather oddly phrased questions ever since he gave a test which was all true/false - the directions said to ''mark whether each statement is true or false'', and of course he got a paper with nothing but ''yes''. Just try taking a test with directions that mean that but spend way to long making absolutely certain that they are unambiguous. - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]
 
Other possible ways to ask:
 
*.i do djica tu'a ma poi cmima loi ckafi ku ce loi tcati
*.i do djica tu'a ma po'u loi ckafi .onai loi tcati
 
*.i loi ckafi loi tcati zo'u do djica tu'a ma
 
''Also all the "djica tu'a"'s can be replaced by something like "ctidji" or "pixydji".''
 
(or pe'ipei) ''Do you think coffee or tea? (???)''
 
And ''furthermore'', you can go Klingon, bypassing the interrogative, and say:
 
*.i ko cuxna fi loi ckafi kuce loi tcati
 
Methods involving set membership in some way (i.e. everything but methods involving ''ji'') are known to be the only reliable method if you have more than two alternatives to choose from.
 
''If you have more than one ''ji'' you can repeat all of the sumti with the correct logical connectives between them. You can also do this with only one ''ji'', but it's not necessary.'' '''Could be wrong, but wasn't this proven not to work?'''
 
How so? You only run into problems in multiple connectives when you attempt to use things like ''o'' or ''onai'' - which are patently unhelpful in answering a question, anyway. -rab.spir
 
*''.e'u cuxna lo pamei (be le se pinxe bei)'' {or} ''(befi) le ckafi .e le tcati''
 
-----
 
Such a wonderful language, this Lojban, offering so many ways to say the same thing, and so much potential for endless discussion of said different phrasings for the simplest of ideas! Unambiguous does not mean canonical!

Latest revision as of 08:08, 26 September 2014

  • If the original purpose of Lojban is to test the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis, which is that a language shapes the thoughts of its speakers, and most of the gismu are relations with English-worded definitions, isn't Lojban inevitably just as restrictive as English is as far as vocabulary is concerned?
    • No. The definitions include clarifiers that, for instance, salci (celebrate) includes funerals.
    • Jay:
      • One can attempt to define, say, Japanese words in English, but just because you learn the English definition doesn't mean you truly grasp the nuances of the Japanese word. As, I think, xod also believes, we are in the process of discovering the nuances of the words. The definitions of the words in the gismu list aren't the real meanings of the words, merely that which can be encoded in English.
    • Huh? Why? Not that many of the gismu correspond closely with any English word; they tend to have broader meanings. Dictionary "definitions", including the gismu definitions, are not mathematical definitions, but more like indications of the typical meanings. The real meanings live in that mushy stuff in people's heads.
    • jezrax:
      • This is an absolutist argument. If it held in the strong sense, then the only way to create a truly artificial conlang would be to base it on a theory which could not be described in a natural language at all! Otherwise you could say that, after all, it was only an encoding of its natural language description, and not "artificial" at all.
    • But there is indeed a sense in which this is a valid concern. If a person only learns gismu by the keyword and not by the sumti, they will become an un-lobykai user of Lojban, and their jbosku will tend to resemble encoded English. All of us, in truth, start that way. But after you have begun to learn to distinguish gismu with similar-meaning English keywords, their true meanings will more and more influence your usage. This is not, however, an especially Whorfish effect--yet. That will only occur when you are perceiving in terms of those relationships...
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