zipcpi: Yet another gadri article

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Part of the gadganzu series, a joint proposal by la zipcpi and la cadgu'a

Where there are two gadri separated by a slash, the first one refers to the objects treated as individuals, and the second one refers to objects treated as a mass.


Spectrum of the Gadri 
and the type of Referring Descriptions they create

            \       that cat              the/a cat                                     Mr Cat    Plato's Cat Statue     
             \          |                     |                                            |            /
[definite]--la/lai--le'i/lei'i--le'e/lei'e--le/lei--<referents] lo/loi [no referents>--lo'e/loi'e--lo'i/loi'i--[indefinite]     
             /          |           |         \                   |                        |           |
            /           |           |          \             null determiner           Platitudes      |
           /       Demonstrative Anaphoric      \        <--context resolves-->                     Modeling
         Names                                Deictic

la / lai

Name determiner. la broda = the one(s) named "Broda". The definition of broda is irrelevant; what matters is what the speakers have agreed to name or address as broda.

le'i / lei'i

Demonstrative determiner. le'i broda = "this/that broda(s)". Indicates that the speaker is signaling a particular broda(s) to the listener. Roughly equivalent to ti/ta/tu noi broda, but does not imply spatial distance or presence, and is often grammatically more convenient as it doesn't start a new sub-bridi.

ko tcidu le'i cukta = "Read this/that book."

If spatial distance is important, use vi/va/vu, e.g. le'i vu cmana = "that mountain way over there". Another option could be lo meti broda, lo meta broda, lo metu broda.

le'e / lei'e

Anaphoric determiner. le'e broda = the aforementioned broda(s). Essentially identical to lo bi'unai broda. Used to refer to something mentioned earlier in the text/conversation. Unlike ri/ra/ru, or the experimental gadri ri'oi, the referent does not have to be already explicitly mentioned as a sumti; the idea just has to be already present in the text.

Despite {le'e}'s position in the spectrum, it can also refer to an aforementioned lo'e/lo'i "referent"; useful if the initial referent has a complicated description or relative clause.

To distinguish subjective anaphoric distance, lo di'u broda, lo de'u broda, and lo da'u broda could be used.

le / lei

Deictic determiner. le broda = the broda(s) that are identifiable or knowable.

For example, if a wife returns home after watching a play, she might have this conversation with her husband:
W: coi = "Hello."
H: coi .i xu do nelci le draci = "Hi. Did you like the play? (that you just watched)"
W: nago'i uinai = "No. *sadness*"

lo / loi

Null/descriptive determiner. lo broda = something(s) that brodas. This is the simplest gadri of all, and always means either le or lo'e depending on context. Since the difference between the meaning of the two is usually so distinct shifting the burden onto the listener to determine what is meant, usually is no burden at all.

mi djica lo nu do penmi lo prenu : "I want you to meet someone."

  • mi djica lo nu do penmi le prenu : "I want you to meet a person (I have in mind)."
  • mi djica lo nu do penmi lo'e prenu : "I want you to meet People (In general)."

Compare with:

mi djica lo nu do penmi le'e prenu = "I want you to meet that person (that we were talking about).
mi djica lo nu do penmi le'i prenu = "I want you to meet that person (over there).

lo'e / loi'e

Generalizing determiner. lo'e broda = brodas in general, without referring to any broda in particular.

Continuing the previous conversation of the wife who watched the play:
H: ue .i xunai do nelci lo'e draci = "Eh? Don't you like plays? (plays in general)"
W: go'i = "Yes (I do like plays; xunai only makes the question rhetorically negative, and does not change the expected answer)"
H: je'e = "OK. (Understood / Roger)"

Note that this differs from xu do nelci ro draci "Do you like all plays?", which is most probably false. Even the biggest fan of plays would probably hate some plays; in fact, they may hate it all the more because of their appreciation of plays in general!

Outer quantifiers do not have defined meaning with this gadri; lo'e essentially makes one virtual copy of its descriptor, that represents the object(s) of generalization. Thus lo'e mlatu cu se tuple vo da ("Cats have four legs"), assigns four legs (which also happen to be virtual) to a single generalized cat.

Inner quantifiers, however, can have meaning, to generalize about sets or masses of objects, e.g.
lo'e re bruna cu tende lo ka damba zu'ai = "Two brothers will tend to fight each other."
loi'e re mlatu cu se tuple bi da = "Two cats have eight legs (between them)."

lo'i / loi'i

Essentialistic determiner. lo'i broda = the essentialistic/Platonic model of broda. The truth value of the sentence would depend on the definition of broda; what constitutes "broda-ness", regardless of the actual status of things that broda.

xu lo'i remna cu danlu = "Are humans animals? / Is animality a part of humanity?" (Generally true, as Lojban danlu does not imply non-personhood like English "animal" might.)

xu ro remna cu mroka'e = "Are all humans mortal?" (True; compare with the next sentence)
xu lo'i remna cu mroka'e = "Is mortality a part of humanity?" (a very interesting question indeed; you might get very different answers depending if you asked a transhumanist, a priest, or a nihilist!)

Indeed, it's hard to assign a single truth value to many lo'i questions, since it's based so much on how a person defines a word; such statements can be thought of as having an implicit ma'i.

Note that this makes xu do nelci lo'i draci "Is (you liking it) a part of (being-a-play-ness)?" a pretty ridiculous question; plays aren't characterized by whether the wife likes it or not!

Similarly to lo'e, outer quantifiers do not have defined meaning with this gadri. Inner quantifiers and masses also work similarly to lo'e.

mo'oi / moi'oi

Interrogative determiner. mo'oi broda = which broda? Roughly equivalent to ma noi, but doesn't start a new sub-bridi.

mo'oi prenu cu bevri le pipno = "Which person(s) carried the piano?"
mo'oi mu prenu cu bevri le pipno = "Which five people carried the piano?"

May be "chained" with any other gadri by usig me, e.g.:

mo'oi me le'i prenu cu bevri le pipno = "Which of these people carried the piano?"

Non-gadri: voi

Titular relative clause. Provides a "subtitle" to a name in the form of a sub-bridi.

la .aleksandros. voi banli = "Alexander the Great"
la .uubis. voi daspo so'o terdi = "Woobie, the Destroyer of Worlds"

May also be used with gadri other than la/lai, in the form of e.g. le prenu voi daspo so'o terdi = "the person known as the Destroyer of Worlds"

(It's been noted that under the brivla-cmevla merge proposal, noi would still be part of the name if the la gadri is not closed by ku * but I think voi signals the intent much better, with or without that merge.)

* (and without the merge, only brivlacme [e.g. la broda noi banli] can have suffixed titles with noi; cmevlacme must use la noi banli vau .aleksandros. . Yuck.)

Note: Defined as voi'i under jbovlaste. Since the ce ki tau jau dialect reassigns voi, voi'i should be used for the titular clause if both CKTJ and this proposal is used.

Expected impact

No change: la/lai, lo/loi (xorlo version)
No real change; just a cleaned-up/tightened definition: le/lei
Slight shift in definition?: lo'e, voi
Significant shift in definition: lo'i
Completely reassigned: le'i, le'e
New cmavo: lei'i, le'ei, lo'ei, loi'i, mo'oi, moi'oi

There are some concerns over the reassignment of the set gadri lo'i and le'i, however it's also been noted that sets are hardly ever used in general conversation. For purposes where sets are still needed, there is lu'i, which also has the upside of being able to attach to any of these gadri.

The reassigned gadri are hardly ever used in standard Lojban, but may still be a source of confusion. Thus, people using the definitions of lo'i, le'i and le'e on this page may wish to mark their speech with jo'au gadganzu (jo'au acts like coi but indicates the used version/dialect of Lojban), and link to this page.

Tentative Lojban definitions

jo'au gadganzu

ni'o ca'e lu le'i broda li'u sinxa le broda poi le cusku co'i sajgau fi ke'a .i sa'enai lubu dunli lu <ti ja ta ja tu vu'o noi broda> li'u

ni'o ca'e lu le'e broda li'u sinxa le broda poi le cusku pu casnu ke'a ca le ca nu tavla

ni'o ca'e lu le broda li'u sinxa lo broda poi itca je poi le cusku co'i aidji lo ka casnu ke'a

ni'o ca'e lu lo'e broda li'u sinxa pa broda poi virtu'ale je poi ke'a krati lo sidbo poi sucta ro broda .iku'i le jufra na bilga lo ka mapti ro broda .i sa'u simsa lu <lo su'a broda> li'u

ni'o ca'e lu lo'i broda li'u sinxa pa broda poi virtu'ale je poi ke'a krati lo se jimpe be fi lo du'u makau kairpau lo ka broda

ni'o ca'e zo voi sinxa lo balcme poi se tarmi lo ra'abri