LLG 2021 Annual Meeting Transcript

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karis [ 2021-10-10T17:23:16Z ]

   karis a rejoint le canal.

karis [ 2021-10-10T17:25:23Z ]

   lojbab a été ajouté au canal par karis.

karis [ 2021-10-10T17:25:23Z ]

   gleki a été ajouté au canal par karis.

karis [ 2021-10-10T17:25:23Z ]

   john.cowan a été ajouté au canal par karis.

karis [ 2021-10-10T17:25:23Z ]

   mukti a été ajouté au canal par karis.

maik [ 2021-10-10T20:10:50Z ]

   maik a rejoint le canal.

maik [ 2021-10-10T20:14:30Z ]

   coi .i mi zvati tezu'e lo nu zgana
   Hi I am here for the purpose of observation.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T02:34:39Z ]

   la-robotin-daiter a rejoint le canal.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T02:35:22Z ]

   coi ro do .i xu curmi lonu tavla fo lo jbobau

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T02:39:49Z ]

   .i ca ma lonu jdijmaji cu cfari .i xu lonu jdijmaji cu jai se notsku

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T02:40:50Z ]

   .i .a'o ti jai zanselja'e

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T03:29:30Z ]

   .i bu'u ti ma se casnu .i xu lo liste cu dacti .i lo liste cu zvati ma

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T03:32:09Z ]

   .i liste be lo se casnu

ilmen [ 2021-10-11T07:57:58Z ]

   ilmen a rejoint le canal.

ilmen [ 2021-10-11T07:59:39Z ]

   coi
   (Hello)

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T08:35:35Z ]

   coi fi'i la ilmen

karis [ 2021-10-11T11:48:10Z ]

   Welcome @ilmen, @maik, and @la-robotin-daiter.

karis [ 2021-10-11T11:48:37Z ]

   Also, robotin, please provide translations in English for any lojban you post. This is not meant to be discriminatory, but there are people interested in lojban who aren't fluent in it. English generally works as a broadly spoken and understood language so LLG decided decades ago to conduct meetings in it. If anyone joins who needs help translations to and from lojban (or other languages) the group will do or best to help. 

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T14:00:33Z ]

   .i .u'iru'e .uu le lojban girzu cu na tavla fo lo logji bangu 
   .i ba'anai puzu mi jai tolzau ki'u lonu mi tavla fo lo jbobau 
   .i puku .a'o lonu tolzau lonu tavla fo lo jbobau ku ku fanmo 
   .iku'i ranji 
   .i ma se sinxa lodu'u lo girzu pe lo jbobau cu na kakne ja djica lonu tavla fo lo jbobau
   .i ra'a mi mi zmadu cilre lo jbobau ca lonu denpa ti lo purci nunpe'i
   .i .a'ocai baku na tolzau
   
   I am both mildly amused and saddened that the Lojban group does not talk in a logical language.
   I remember that long ago I was disapproved of because I talked in Lojban.
   In the past, I hoped that this disapproval of talking in Lojban would end.
   However, it persists.
   What does it signify for the group associated with Lojban to be unable or unwilling to talk in Lojban?
   As for myself, I have been learning more about Lojban in the pause since this (meeting) and the previous one.
   I greatly hope that, in future, it will not be disapproved of.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T14:02:24Z ]

   Translations of previous sentences, respectively:
   
   "Hello, everyone. Is it permitted to speak in Lojban?"
   "When does the meeting start? Was the meeting announced?"
   "I hope that this (meeting) will be productive/have a good result."
   "What are the topics of discussion here? Is there a list? Where is the list?"
   "The list of topics of discussion."

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T14:04:45Z ]

   pinka fa zoi .gy. off => of .gy. lonu lo purci se cusku cu cusku'i
   
   Comment: "off => of" regarding the editing of a previous utterance.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-11T14:07:31Z ]

   .i mi na cusku lodu'u mi tolzau lonu tavla fo lo glibau .iku'i lonu tavla fo lo jbobau ba'e po'o cu .ei na tolzau
   
   I do not say that talking in English should be disapproved of. However, talking in *only* Lojban should not be disapproved of.

karis [ 2021-10-12T22:00:32Z ]

   As for the majority of the questions @la-robotin-daiter posted, see if the following answers them. 
   
   Here's the meeting announcement that began distribution on October 9, 2021 thus giving time for further distribution and the required two week notice. Please distribute it as widely as possible. 
   
   ---------
   
   ANNOUNCEMENT : LLG Members Meeting
   
   
   Anyone interested in lojban is welcome, and there are other activities on this such as bridges to several common chats about and /or in it. 
   
   
   2021 LLG Members Meeting
   
   
   Place: Mattermost (same as recent meetings - instructions for those new to it follow).
   
   
   Start Date: October 25th, 2021 @ 00:01 UTC
   
   
   Please, please if you plan on attending any of all of this meeting please join the meeting and state you are present by the end of October 31st. Thank you. This m meeting is expected to finish by the end of January at the latest so general organizational business will be moved along quickly. 
   
   
   

karis [ 2021-10-12T22:06:49Z ]

   The issue of whether or not meetings should be conducted in lojban has been ongoing for decades. @lojbab knows more of the history of the discussion than I because I took of a number of years to have and raise my children while working. Once they needed somewhat less of my time and I stopped working I came back.
   
   What I do know is that currently the official language of these meetings is English. 
   
   Since there are almost always people around to provide translations you could speak only in lojban and ask them for translations. 
   
   That solution, for someone fluent in English, seems mostly a waste of time and energy, so I asked you for your own translations. We have had people do what you did in the past before and it works. 

karis [ 2021-10-12T22:08:11Z ]

   The agenda is at
   
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Kda_DHsgE6YyYx2BDeyTvYXmt4LQYYQ8HqtzhU0bd5Q/edit?usp=drivesdk

greg_g [ 2021-10-15T06:26:36Z ]

   greg_g a rejoint le canal.

ilmen [ 2021-10-15T22:37:04Z ]

   coi

gleki [ 2021-10-16T04:55:44Z ]

   coi le cmima e le na cmima

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-18T06:35:44Z ]

   G L I B A U P O h O
   
   Translation:
   > Gleki: Hello, members and those who are not members.
   > Robotin: English only!

gleki [ 2021-10-18T07:24:05Z ]

   English: hi!

karis [ 2021-10-21T09:05:36Z ]

   Thank you for the translation, @la-robotin-daiter. It isn't English only, though. It's more Include English. 

solpahi [ 2021-10-21T09:34:31Z ]

   solpahi a rejoint le canal.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-23T06:00:34Z ]

   coi fi'i la solpa'i
   > Hello and welcome, Solpahi.

gleki [ 2021-10-23T16:19:27Z ]

   le lojbo zo'u ckire do lo ka fanva doi la robotin dailer i ku'i naku se steci lo ka glico i sei dramau se'u jmina lo'e glico

karis [ 2021-10-25T23:01:27Z ]

   CALL TO ORDER
   
   @channel, 
   
   THE 2021 Logical Language Group (LLG) Members Meeting is now called to Order. It is October 26, 2021 at 00:45 UTC. 
   
   Thank you all for participating this year. I am Karen Stein, otherwise known as. karis, and I am the current President of the LLG. I'm particularly excited to have some new people joining us. 
   
   Don't worry if you are not a Member (someone voted into the organization who is expected to participate) as the only differences between Members and Non-Members are that Members vote and if necessary a section of the meeting may take place with only Members present. Everyone's feedback, ideas, and comments are welcome. 
   
    If you are not sufficiently fluent in English please tell us and we will do our best to find a translator for you within the community. For lojban, of course, that is usually no problem. 
   
   There are two immediate items we need to take care of. 
   
   MEETING NOTIFICATION
   
   Please post here if you have any concerns that this meeting was not announced sufficiently at least two weeks before today as required in the Bylaws. 
   
   ATTENDANCE
   
   Also, I ask everyone here to please state your name (or names - need not be legal ones), your status as Member or Visitor, and an indication of your presence. It really helps if you include your lojbanic name if you aren't using it for your login. 
   
   ------
   
   Thank you for taking care of these two points as quickly as possible. I will move on with the meeting before or on October 31, 2021.
   

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-10-26T08:18:46Z ]

   .i mi'e la robotin daiter .i mi na cmima .i ca'e mi zvati
   > I am Robotin Daiter. I am not a member. I hereby declare that I am present.

gleki [ 2021-10-26T17:19:56Z ]

   coi do mi'e la gleki mi cmima le te girzu be fi la .lojbangirz. i za'a dai mi zvati
   > Heya, I'm Gleki I am a member of the llg. As you can see I'm present.

greg_g [ 2021-10-26T21:34:59Z ]

   coi rodo mi'e la .greg. .i mi na cmima
   I am Greg, I am here as Visitor.
   

noras [ 2021-10-27T01:03:22Z ]

   noras a rejoint le canal.

lojbab [ 2021-10-27T01:06:01Z ]

   mi'e lojbab noi zvati ti  (I am lojbab = Robert LeChevalier, and present here)

noras [ 2021-10-27T01:13:43Z ]

   coi .i mi jundi .i zoi gic. Hello.  I'm attending (ie: attentive) gic.

lojbab [ 2021-10-27T01:13:56Z ]

   point of order.  I think it is OK for people to use whatever handle they wish as their posting IDs. But I think *voting members* should identify their real/legal name when they first indicate legal presence.  These annual meetings are nominally formal for those voting members.

noras [ 2021-10-27T01:14:39Z ]

   "noras" is Nora LeChevalier

lojbab [ 2021-10-27T01:14:50Z ]

   It is of course up to karis whether this is mandatory.

karis [ 2021-10-27T08:02:42Z ]

   @channel,. 
   
   Thank you, @lojbab. This point is well taken. It will allow all attendees to know who we (voting Members) are.
   
   Please, would all voting Members append their legal name (first and last is sufficient) to their attendance statement. Anyone who has any issue doing so may message me directly to discuss their situation. 

karis [ 2021-10-27T08:03:39Z ]

   I am karis, Karen Stein, and I am present. 

gleki [ 2021-10-27T09:54:41Z ]

   .i mi se cmene zoi .vric.Arkadii Balandin.vric. noi jai flalu cmene 
   I'm Arkadii Balandin, which is my legal name

mukti [ 2021-10-29T00:20:28Z ]

   I'm Riley Martinez-Lynch, and present.

ilmen [ 2021-10-30T17:24:25Z ]

   Sylvain Dejardin, present.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-11-03T19:16:01Z ]

   .i za'a 6 cmima be lylygy cu zvati .iku'i na banzu .i platu ma lonu ranji .i ca 4 djedi noda se cusku 
   
   .i ti'e 11 cmima cu banzu lonu cfari
   
   .i ma krinu lonu le jatna cu na vimcu lo na spuda poi cmima lylygy .i go go'i gi ka'e cfari
   
   .i go lo na spuda cu se vimcu gi lo ca zvati cu banzu
   
   > I observe that 6 LLG members are present. However, that is not enough. What is the plan to continue? For 4 days, there has been no talking. 
   > 
   > I believe (have heard that) 11 members are required to start.
   > 
   > What is the reason for the leaders not removing LLG members who do not respond? If that occurred, the meeting could start.
   > 
   > If those who did not respond were removed, those who are currently present would be enough.

gleki [ 2021-11-04T09:28:00Z ]

   ze'a le djedi be li4

gleki [ 2021-11-04T09:29:35Z ]

   i xu le jatna cu se krali lo ka vimcu

gleki [ 2021-11-04T09:29:46Z ]

   During 4 days

gleki [ 2021-11-04T09:30:05Z ]

   Does the head have rights to remove?

karis [ 2021-11-06T02:13:36Z ]

   @channel,
   
   In answer to @la-robotin-daiter, a quorum of Voting Members is only needed for regular business if sufficient notice (15  days) has not been given. 
   
   "Quorum. Provided that notice of the meeting has been sent in accordance with Section 4 or Section 5, as appropriate, there shall be no minimum quorum for a meeting," Article 4.
   
   The only times a majority of all Voting Members is necessary are, 1) When sufficient notice has been deemed not to have been satisfied, or 2) For votes on Bylaw changes. In the latter case the proposed change must be announced with the announcement of the annual Members Meeting or a Special Meeting for that purpose. 

karis [ 2021-11-06T02:16:30Z ]

   @channel,
   
   SUFFICIENT NOTICE
   
   Please reply to this message (by 23:59 November 7th if you believe there was not sufficient notice given for this meeting. 

karis [ 2021-11-06T02:22:09Z ]

   In answer to the remainder of @la-robotin-daiter's question, there is in place a procedure for removing Members who have not made contact with a Board Member or participated in either of two previous Members Meetings. There isn't anyone who meets these criteria this year. 

karis [ 2021-11-08T11:30:11Z ]

   @channel
   RESULTS
   As no one has indicated they believe there was not sufficient notice given for this meeting we will proceed. 

maik [ 2021-11-12T03:13:27Z ]

   I am not a member, but you may wish to be advised of the following.
   
   Your Oct. 9 email notification of the meeting never reached the main Lojban mailing list nor did it reach LLG members mailing list.  It only reached the Lojban Beginners list (which is where I saw it).  Check the email header; email addresses are incorrect.
   
   You never announced the meeting on the official Lojban Discord server or on the new Roljbogu'e Discord server.  This might have been a good idea.
   
   You manually added only four LLG members to the channel (the other board members plus JWC); as a result, few members were pinged when you made your call to order.
   
   Unless a member is on the Beginners list, or has heard by word of mouth, he or she probably does not know there is a MM underway.
   

karis [ 2021-11-12T19:49:06Z ]

   @maik,
   
   Yes, I only added the LLG Boatd Members and @john.cowan at the beginning. I see no reason to assume any others will attend since it's easy to join channels. By leaving almost everyone off it's obvious who has added themselves. This is an additional check on attendance. I wasn't using calling the meeting to order to get attention from people who haven't joined us this year. 
   
   I am also not a member of all the lojban chats, even all the English ones, around the internet.  Initially I sent, through one of gleki's bridges, the announcement to the lojban list and to ckule list. I have no clue why you didn't see any of these other posts. In the future it would be wonderful if you'd share the announcements. 
   
   I'm not active in all the lojban chat sites. What I'm do keep at least look at regularly are ckule, lojban, and I LLG Members, usually through the links with Mattermost or Telegram. That's one important reason I ask, with every meeting announcement, for everyone who reads it to share it in places they haven't seen it.
   
   This year I initially posted the announcement to lojban and ckule, since the members group the bridge connects to is almost completely inactive. I then reposted the announcement when I realized that at least one hadn't gone through. The second time each I posted did show. 
   
   I would love to check out the Discord servers. I was able to join one earlier this year, but it isn't showing up in my list now. Please send me links to those you know about so I can take a look. I'm always interested in the places where lojban discussion or learning takes place. 

maik [ 2021-11-12T22:54:23Z ]

   Okay, there are a few issues here that I was trying to bring up, let's take them one at a time, starting with email.
   
   On Oct. 9, you sent the 2021 MM announcement to the following email addresses:
   
   **> 1.** lojban@lojban.org
   
   I don't know who receives email sent to (1), but I am sure it's not all LLG members.
   
   Correct email address:  I think for (1), you intended to send to lojban@googlegroups.com, which is the current address for the main Lojban mailing list which has existed for years.
   
   
   **> 2.** Unknown Misc <lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com>
   
   This is a valid address, but it's not likely to be read by all LLG members.
   
   
   **> 3.** Lojban Groups <lojban-members@googlegroups.com>
   
   This is NOT a valid email address.  (I tested it.)
   
   Correct email address: I think for (3), you intended to send to llg-members@lojban.org, which apparently has been shut down due to recent restructuring.   
   
   
   

maik [ 2021-11-12T22:56:16Z ]

   As a result, no one received an email notification on Oct.  9, unless that person is on the beginners list.

maik [ 2021-11-12T23:01:05Z ]

   Update: I have learned that a small number of people do receive the emails sent to (1) lojban@lojban.org.  Among these are R.L.Powell, Lojbab, and Solpahi.

karis [ 2021-11-13T15:27:10Z ]

   @maik,
   
   I understand there was less dispersal of the announcement than I hoped for or that I've gotten in past years. It sounds like you're saying that you don't believe the release on the 9th was sufficient. 
   
   I appreciate you analyzing the addresses in the message you saw, and passing along possible alternatives. I don't necessarily see the emails my posts become, so I didn't realize some of the addresses weren't working. I do double check, which is why a later release was sent, as well as to function as a reminder. I also realize you weren't aware that I sent out more, nor that I based the 15 days notice on the latter date. I never rely on a single post to a single address anyway. There's no one address or group that reaches all the LLG Members. There are, though, listservs/servers/whatever that each reach many, particularly with all the bridges. 
   
   This repl has taken some extra time. I was making sure that the places I posted the announcements was distributing posts as they should. All seems to be functioning except the existent of two named "Lojban". I do not know why the lojban-beginners isn't connected, and why. I'm not sure you didn't see the posts in the lojban, or than the group often moves very quickly. 
   

maik [ 2021-11-13T17:54:58Z ]

   @karis 
   
   > there was less dispersal of the announcement than I hoped for
   
   The Bylaws say notify each member.  It's understandable if you got an address wrong, and not your fault if you weren't aware that the list that originally served this purpose - namely llg-members@lojban.org - was recently decommissioned, although you should have noticed a bounced email in your inbox in any case.  The relevant point is this: *The email did not go through.*
   
   
   > It sounds like you're saying that you don't believe the release on the 9th was sufficient.
   
   I strongly doubt it was sufficient, based on everything I have determined.
   
   
   >  I don't necessarily see the emails my posts become
   
   Be advised that your posts in this channel don't become emails at all for people who aren't in this channel.
   
   
   > I also realize you weren't aware that I sent out more
   
   I have determined that you indeed made the announcement on channel #lojban on Framateam (I didn't see it at first, because I am not on Framateam #lojban, because I am already on Discord #lojban, which is theoretically bridged).  Unfortunately your message was not propagated to other chat platforms such as Discord, either due to maintenance issues, or because something is broken.  (This is obviously not your fault.)
   
   I have also determined that you made the announcement in this very channel.  Be advised that this channel is *not* connected to a bridge.  Only certain Framateam channels are connected to any bridge.  So that message was not propagated either.
   
   
   > I'm not sure you didn't see the posts in the lojban, or than the group often moves very quickly.
   
   I am able to search "LLG" and find old messages easily on Discord #lojban, and Framateam #lojban, so long as I am in that channel.  I am relatively sure where the announcement appeared and where it didn't.
   
   If it were me - take this as merely a suggestion - instead of hoping, what I would do now is directly email each member just in case they did not receive notification.  For the sake of future convenience, I would advise each member that, going forward, announcements to the LLG membership will be done via the main Lojban list (there are no plans to decommission this list as far as I know), and that members should be subscribed to that list.  This would make it easy for you to comply with the Bylaws and remove the doubts, the troubles with the Bridge, etc., -- so long as you double-check that the announcement has in fact arrived on the list.  If a message arrives on the list, it will be displayed on the web interface found here: https://groups.google.com/g/lojban  (You will notice that the Oct. 9 message does not appear.)
   
   You can still put the announcement other places too, in case you are interested in advertising more broadly than just to the membership, but that would be extra.
   

karis [ 2021-11-13T18:47:46Z ]

   @maik
   
   You've made your point, and thank you. You don't believe there was sufficient notice. Please go ahead and forward the announcement to any groups which you are in. The very point of asking people, Members or not, to disperse the announcement is to spread it to the Members and to anyone else who might be interested in joining us.

maik [ 2021-11-13T18:55:52Z ]

   @karis I will go ahead and forward the announcement to the main Lojban list (lojban@googlegroups.com)  I believe the announcement should have been placed here, if nowhere else.
   
   I will help you with Discord a little later today in side conversations.
   

karis [ 2021-11-13T18:56:22Z ]

   Thank you. 

veion [ 2021-11-13T19:36:42Z ]

   veion a rejoint le canal.

veion [ 2021-11-13T19:52:52Z ]

   I am veion, Veijo Vilva, present. I got the first notice of this meeting less than an hour ago via lojban@googlegroups.com

karis [ 2021-11-13T22:47:48Z ]

   Thanks for joining us. 

karis [ 2021-11-13T22:48:36Z ]

   @channel,
   
   What do the rest of you think? 

karis [ 2021-11-14T20:29:31Z ]

   phma a été ajouté au canal par karis.

mukti [ 2021-11-14T21:26:34Z ]

   I'm typing up minutes for the 2020 meeting and it occurs to me that we should consider asking those responding to the roll call to include their preferred pronouns. In the absence of that information, I will try to use my best judgment, but would be glad to also consider a policy of using they/them for those who don't indicate another preference. Thoughts?

phma [ 2021-11-15T02:03:31Z ]

   mi zvati/I'm here

karis [ 2021-11-15T03:46:34Z ]

   I think that's an excellent idea since names in lojban are even less gendered than most other languages, and the whole idea of asking people for their pronouns is becoming more and more common. 

mukti [ 2021-11-16T01:52:06Z ]

   I have drafted minutes for the 2020 meeting here. I submit them for amendment and approval: https://mw-live.lojban.org/papri/LLG_2020_Annual_Meeting_Minutes

karis [ 2021-11-16T10:55:59Z ]

   Thank you, @mukti.

maik2 [ 2021-11-16T20:43:14Z ]

   maik2 a rejoint le canal.

maik2 [ 2021-11-16T20:44:32Z ]

   @maik2 a quitté le canal.

and.rosta [ 2021-11-17T10:15:17Z ]

   and.rosta a rejoint le canal.

ilmen [ 2021-11-18T10:00:42Z ]

   @mukti: I'm fine by "they" being used as an overall default pronoun.

karis [ 2021-11-19T02:28:26Z ]

   I agree with @ilmen. Using they works for me whenever gender is unclear or unknown. 

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-11-19T13:28:03Z ]

   ki'e la mukti ku poi ciska lo nunpe'i vreji
   > Thank you to Mukti who wrote the meeting minutes.

karis [ 2021-11-23T20:32:00Z ]

   @channel,
   
    I am ending the current meeting due to the concern that notice of this meeting may not have been distributed sufficiently. I will again call the meeting to order on November 27 allowing the necessary time to pass from its distribution to lojban@googlegroups.com. At that time please check the meeting every day or two at least as I hope to move the meeting quickly. 

khosrow [ 2021-11-26T08:40:04Z ]

   khosrow a rejoint le canal.

ilmen [ 2021-11-28T09:43:25Z ]

   je'e — Okay

karis [ 2021-11-28T10:47:42Z ]

   coi @khosrow
   
   [Greetings @khosrow] 

karis [ 2021-11-28T11:08:33Z ]

   CALL TO ORDER 
   
   @channel,
   
   THE 2021 Logical Language Group (LLG) Members Meeting is now Called to Order (again) at 10:50 UTC November 28, 2021. 
   
   Thank you all for participating this year. I am Karen Stein, otherwise known as. karis, and I am the current President of the LLG. I'm particularly excited to have some new people joining us. I apologize for the large delay I in getting this meeting underway. Feel free to read the older messages to see what's happened earlier. 
   
   Don't worry if you are not a Member (someone voted into the organization who is expected to participate) as the only differences between Members and Non-Members are that Members vote and if necessary a section of the meeting may take place with only Members present. Everyone's feedback, ideas, and comments are welcome. 
   
    If you are not sufficiently fluent in English please tell us and we will do our best to find a translator for you within the community. For lojban, of course, that is usually no problem. 
   
   There are two immediate items we need to take care of. 
   
   MEETING NOTIFICATION
   
   Please post here if you have any concerns that this meeting was not announced sufficiently at least two weeks before today as required in the Bylaws. 
   
   ATTENDANCE
   
   Also, I ask everyone here to please state your name (or names - need not be legal ones), your status as Member or Visitor, and an indication of your presence. It really helps if you include your lojbanic name if you aren't using it for your login. Should you have already done so that is sufficient. 
   
   ------
   
   Thank you for taking care of these two points as quickly as possible, and certainly before 0:01 the first day of December, 2021. I will be stating times in UTC due to the international nature of the LLG Membership. If you are confused, UTC is Coordinated Universal Time and it is the time in Eastern Time (of the USA) - 5 hours at this time of year, +3 hours in Berlin, Germany, and +5 1/2 hours in Delhi, India. 
   
   

phma [ 2021-11-28T11:11:46Z ]

   mi'e .piier. mi zvati / I'm Pierre; I'm here.

lojbab [ 2021-11-28T18:08:44Z ]

   I'm Bob LeChevalier, member (among other things) and I am still here.  (karis didn't say that we had to reannounce our presence at the meeting as part of starting anew, but I'm not going to wait, just in case it is needed for quorum).

karis [ 2021-11-29T06:10:41Z ]

   Thank you. 

mukti [ 2021-11-30T01:36:34Z ]

   I'm Riley Lynch, formerly known as Riley Martinez-Lynch. My pronouns are he/him, and I'm here.

veion [ 2021-11-30T04:00:06Z ]

   I am Veijo Vilva, present

phma [ 2021-11-30T09:56:35Z ]

   Is your pronoun hän? :)

veion [ 2021-12-01T04:26:34Z ]

   In Finnish, yes. However, in some dialects and in informal speech we mostly use "se", which would translate as "it". Either way, the same pronoun is used for both sexes, we don't have grammatical gender.

karis [ 2021-12-01T10:04:22Z ]

   That's interesting. Since hearing about lojban's ko'a I've really liked the idea of a genderless, numberless pronoun. Finnish comes the closest as far as I've heard. 

karis [ 2021-12-01T10:08:37Z ]

   @channel,
   
   SUFFICIENT NOTICE
   
   As there have been no comments to the effect that someone believes sufficient notice was not given for this newly started Members Meeting we will proceed under the consensus that it was. 

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-12-01T10:52:20Z ]

   bau lo cabna jbobau lo lerfu fi lo jbopre cu basme'e
   
   .i mupli fa lu:
   
   mi djica lonu citka lo plise .i py xunre
   
   li'u
   
   .i py du lo plise
   .i le lerfu cu basme'e lo traji lampru sumti poi le pamoi lerfu pe ke'a cu dunli le lerfu basme'e
   
   > In contemporary Lojban, letters are used as pronouns.
   > 
   > Example:
   > 
   > I want to eat an apple (lo plise). P is red.
   > 
   > P == apple
   > The letter is a pronoun for the most recent sumti whose first letter is the same as the the letter pronoun.

noras [ 2021-12-01T15:52:22Z ]

   Nora LeChevalier (Member) present.

karis [ 2021-12-01T17:40:26Z ]

   In my opinion moving away from ko'a, ko'e, etc is a move away from a part of the language I find most useful and distinctive. It also means that lojban is less friendly to people who speak, but not read the language. I can see the desire for more pronouns behind this "contemporary" solution, but I believe it detracts for the reasons I give. 

gleki [ 2021-12-02T13:44:56Z ]

   Since when this solution is "contemporary"? Didn't the CLL use that as well? What is even " contemporary"? Please, define

ilmen [ 2021-12-02T14:02:58Z ]

   Sylvain Dejardin, present.

karis [ 2021-12-02T14:15:26Z ]

   CLL did offer this as an option, if I remember correctly. I don't have my copy with me to check nor do I have the time to look it up online at the moment. The ko'a, ko'e set was, I believe, was the primary pronouns though. 

karis [ 2021-12-02T17:09:22Z ]

   @channel,
   
   ATTENDANCE
   
   The following people have indicated their presence:
   
   Members -
   karis (Karen Stein)
   lojbab (Robert LeChevalier)
   mukti (Riley Lynch) 
   gleki ( Arkadii Balandin) 
   noras (Nora LeChevalier) 
   ilmen (Sylvain Dejardin)
   veon (Veijo Vilva) 
   phma (Pierre Abbat) 
   .and. (And Rosta) - has not announced presence yet
   solpahi (Miles Forster) - has not announced presence yet
   
   Non-Members Present - 
   
   maik
   la-robotin-daiter
   greg_g
   
   
   

karis [ 2021-12-04T20:28:19Z ]

   @channel
   
   MINUTES
   
   Our Secretary, mukti, has posted the minutes at the following:
   
   https://mw-live.lojban.org/papri/LLG_2020_Annual_Meeting_Minutes

karis [ 2021-12-05T03:25:04Z ]

   @channel,
   
   The next Order of Business is Officer's Reports followed by Committee Reports. I would like all of  these submitted as soon as possible. Thank you. 

lojbab [ 2021-12-07T17:42:00Z ]

   VP report: Being retired (and too often too tired), I haven't done much Lojbanic other than read the (mostly junk) LLG mail that comes to my house.  (To give an idea how junky, we still get LLG stuff addressed to pc who was last Vice President about 20 years ago.) So nothing interesting to report.  (I have thought about resuming my Arabian Nights translation, but I've thought about that a lot more than I've actually done anything).

lojbab [ 2021-12-07T17:52:42Z ]

   Regarding lerfu as pro-sumti: JCB introduced that idea to Loglan way back in the 70s.  It was somewhat useful when using multiple pronouns in one sentence to make it easier to keep the referents straight.  But it doesn't help if multiple possible referents start with the same lerfu (and remember that there may be multiple possible referents in one sentence, and you might not want the last one. for example la-robotin-daiter has jbobau and jbopre as referents in his first bridi above, though the first is arguably "cabna jbobau" which might lead someone to use cy instead of jy as a pro-sumti).  I more strongly pushed the idea of explicitly and precisely assigning a pro-sumti using goi.

karis [ 2021-12-08T09:25:50Z ]

   PRESIDENT'S REPORT
   
   Since the last Members Meeting ended in March, 2021, the LLG has been mostly quiet as a group, though individual Members and Officers continued their activities on a wide variety of Internet based media. No Board decisions were made in the period between meetings.
   
   Personally much of my time during the time since the last meeting ended was taken up with a very ill young adult child. We only recently learned the actual cause and they were put on the correct medicine to resolve the underlying issue. It was also spent grieving, and helping my children grieve, for my mother. I truly hope the upcoming year involves less of this for everyone.

mukti [ 2021-12-11T21:02:30Z ]

   SECRETARY / TREASURER'S REPORT

   
   Last year, following the discussion about how to achieve a more agreeable separate of official content and community content, I took the initiative of registering the lojbangirz.org domain. In Old Business I intend to propose to transfer this domain to LLG. If that domain is adopted, then using the documentation that Robin was kind enough to provide, we will be able to start transferring LLG-related content from lojban.org to the new domain. In New Business, I would also like to propose that LLG subscribe to a secrets sharing service, such as 1Password in order to be able to securely orchestrate access to various shared assets.
   
   
The balance of the LLG bank account is, as of December 11, 2021: $23,933.81. This is up $1,808.16 for the year, based on book sales. The only expenditures this year have been for registration and filing fees. Since taking the post of Treasurer, LLG’s books have been maintained on my personal copy of QuickBooks 2013. The old laptop that ran that software ceased to function, but I was able to recover the hard drive. Rather than purchase a new version of Quickbooks, I am going to propose in New Business that LLG subscribe to Quickbooks Online. This will make it easier for the next Treasurer to assume the duties.

karis [ 2021-12-12T02:03:06Z ]

   @channel,
   
   I would appreciate a report for each of the LLG Committees, even if nothing has been done. It doesn't matter if this comes from a Member or not. 
   
   Secondly, in order to create a full listing, to the best of our abilities, of lojban related resources I just created a public channel called "Lojban Resources". Anyone can add to this. I expect not all chats, learning sites, etc are included on lojban.org and hope to put together a more complete listing. 

lojbab [ 2021-12-17T20:00:31Z ]

   Do we have a list of committees?

ilmen [ 2021-12-19T10:44:17Z ]

   As for the LFK, as far as I can assess, there has been no activity since the last LLG meeting.

karis [ 2021-12-20T19:40:54Z ]

   There's the LFK and the LLRC as the most recent committees created. No others have made any reports in several years, at least. 

maik [ 2021-12-20T23:24:21Z ]

   As for the LLRC, its charter is technically in effect, but no members were ever selected.  [As I mentioned in March](https://framateam.org/lojban/pl/r36byaw1rtyijj8gixjtssep4y), this committee is defunct.  In its place there is now, among other things, a ["Logical Languages Lodge" (LLL) Discord server](https://discord.gg/7jJJ4h7).  I doubt it needs to be said, but I'll say it anyway: I believe no one at the LLL harbors any hard feelings whatsoever toward the LLG.  (Given that our shoelaces are not tied together, there is no reason for any.)  I hope all LLG members feel the same way.  I also hope the LLG succeeds in its mission of defining and advancing the historic language that it created and named, and I hope the greater Lojban community flourishes.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2021-12-21T08:58:35Z ]

   .i ta'o la janbe poi pagbu la roljbogu'e diskord servero cu finti to ja fanva toi lo krirmsa sanga be bu'u zoi ubu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swu1ESUw0E ubu
   
   .i a'o ko gleki ca lo krirmsa
   
   > Tangent: La Janbe, who is a part of the Roljbogu'e Discord server, created (or translated) a Christmas song which can be found in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6swu1ESUw0E
   > I wish all of you to be happy this Christmas.

karis [ 2021-12-21T13:40:00Z ]

   @channel,
   
   NEW MEMBERS
   
   
   With appreciation to @ilmen and @maik for providing what was possible for committee reports, It's now time to move on to electing new Members. 
   
   
   Is anyone at this meeting interested in joining the Logical Languages Group (LLG)? Members are mainly responsible for participating in the annual Members Meeting and specially called meetings in the rare instance where this is done. If so, please post here. 
   
   Do any of you know someone who may be interested? If so, please verify their interest and ask them to join us. 
   
   

karis [ 2021-12-31T22:51:00Z ]

   @channel,
   
   I hope you all had good times celebrating whatever holiday(s) you give your attention to during this holiday season. Happy New Years to you all! 

karis [ 2022-01-10T09:31:54Z ]

   @channel,
   
   As it has been over a week since I requested those interested in joining as Members to post here and no one has we will now proceed to the next irem on the Order of Business. If at a later time in this meeting you wish to submit your name or that of someone else you may do so.
   
   ELECTION OF BOARD MEMBERS
   
   Please, if you desire to be part of the Board of Directors until this point in the next Members Meeting (usually in the Fall) please post stating your interest now. The actual voting is scheduled to start on January 15th.
   
   Thank you. 

karis [ 2022-01-10T09:53:04Z ]

   I would like to be reelected to the LLG Board.
   
   For anyone unaware of my past involvement here is a brief summary:
   * I attended Members Meetings for several years during the 1990`s when they were held in Virginia at @lojbab  and @noras's house, and was a member of the Board for many of those years. I was also active on a local level.
   
   I then took time off from administrative duties, though I was reading online material and keeping in touch with lojbab, noras, and djan (John Hodges). I attended another in-person meeting in the 2000s with my eldest. For the last several years I've done, my best as LLG Vice-President then President., ". This job can be, in part described by the phrase "Herding cats", but I enjoy most of it and feel rewarded that I can contribute in a meaningful way to the LLG. For anyone wondering why in all this time I Häagen-Dazs not become fluent in lojban, I've tried, but my specific learning disabilities have made the memorization necessary extremity difficult every time I've tried. 

gleki [ 2022-01-10T10:47:36Z ]

   I would like to be reelected to the LLG Board.
   

mukti [ 2022-01-12T22:17:10Z ]

   I would like to be reelected to the LLG Board, with the intention of continuing as Secretary/Treasurer. If there is interest in either of those roles, I would be glad for the help, and/or to collaborate on a transition.

karis [ 2022-01-15T16:17:03Z ]

   @channel,
   
   Is anyone interested in joining the Board to learn one of the officer's positions? We also welcome people interested in being on the Board without being interested in an Officer position. 

lojbab [ 2022-01-15T16:34:02Z ]

   I likewise am willing to continue on the Board.

karis [ 2022-01-17T09:13:13Z ]

   BOARD ELECTIONS
   
   @channel,
   
   It is now time to vote for Board Members. The following people have said they are interested. You may vote for all, or only one or two of them. Please complete voting by 23:59 UTC on January 21st. Thank you.
   
   * Karen Stein (karis)
   * Arkadii Balandin (lagleki) 
   * Riley Lynch (mukti) 
   * Robert LeChevalier (lojbab)

noras [ 2022-01-17T14:47:10Z ]

   Board member voting:  I vote for the list given by Karen (Karen Stein, Arkadii Balandin, Riley Lynch, Robert LeChevalier)

gleki [ 2022-01-17T16:23:46Z ]

   Board member voting:  I vote for the list given by Karen (Karen Stein, Arkadii Balandin, Riley Lynch, Robert LeChevalier)

lojbab [ 2022-01-17T20:52:36Z ]

   I vote for all 4 Board member candidates that are listed.

karis [ 2022-01-18T03:47:57Z ]

   Hopefully some others will cast votes as well. 

veion [ 2022-01-18T04:23:22Z ]

   I vote for all the 4 candidates on the list.

phma [ 2022-01-18T17:21:33Z ]

   I vote for all four candidates.

karis [ 2022-01-21T10:15:02Z ]

   BOARD ELECTION VOTES
   
   @channel, 
   
   Thank you all for casting your ballots. As I also vote for the slate of candidates, the totals are:
   
   6 for karis, lagleki, lojbab, and mukti to make up the Board, 
   None opposed, 
   No abstentions

karis [ 2022-01-21T22:37:39Z ]

   NEW BUSINESS
   
   @channel, 
   
   We now move to New Business. Hopefully we can move through this quickly.
   
   The first item comes from lagleki. He purposes that we, "discuss possibly new models of officializing new or newly updated products". His reasoning, as added to the agenda, is "if there are any active people it's possible to minimize bureaucracy and start working."
   
   Discussion starts now... 

mukti [ 2022-01-25T00:13:17Z ]

   Are there particular new/updated products to consider? Is there progress, for example, with the review of updates to CLL? I know you've put a lot of work into that, gleki.

karis [ 2022-01-25T17:17:15Z ]

   As far as I'm aware the only product currently in process is that one.

gleki [ 2022-01-26T11:46:49Z ]

   I started the dictionary project and added around 200 sentence examples to the latest version.
   
   https://lojban.pw/articles/complete-lojban-language/
   
   This doesn't mean you should necessarily revise the latest version since the dictionary project is huge and is theoretically infinite

karis [ 2022-01-28T02:14:29Z ]

   @gleki, please explain in more detail why you believe we need another way to approve things, and what ideas you have for how we could do it differently. 

gleki [ 2022-01-28T06:05:22Z ]

   Because committees that are being created end up being defunct. It'd be much less bureaucratic to approve things directly.

karis [ 2022-02-01T14:42:01Z ]

   @channel, responses? 

karis [ 2022-02-01T14:45:13Z ]

   It should be easy to move responsibilities from a defunct or inactive committee to the Membership during meetings, and the Board is there in large part to deal with what arises between Membership Meetings. 

karis [ 2022-02-04T22:38:22Z ]

   As no one seems to want to discuss this would you mind, @gleki, if we table this proposal until later in the meeting? 

gleki [ 2022-02-05T05:59:00Z ]

   Sure

karis [ 2022-02-05T23:08:37Z ]

   Thank you. 

karis [ 2022-02-09T12:01:37Z ]

   @channel, 
   
   Gleki has agreed to return to this proposal later in the meeting since no one showed any interest in discussing it at this time.
   
   The next irem on the agenda is also from gleki. He purposes to, 
   
   "Allow the president or alternatively present members to cancel membership of de facto inactive LLG members when quorum cannot be reached due to inactivity". 

and.rosta [ 2022-02-09T12:27:30Z ]

   Gleki's proposal seems very reasonable to me. Rather than cancel membership, suspend it.

lojbab [ 2022-02-09T22:23:01Z ]

   I believe quorum is not an issue if proper notice has been given.  The thought in the old days was that, if we could not achieve quorum in a given meeting, a new special meeting would be called that would have proper notice.  This was more or less what karis did at the beginning of this meeting when there were questions about notice and quorum.  So what we have, works.  We just need to have a clear policy on when non-attendance leads to cancelling membership.  (I am not sure, And, whether the Bylaws would allow for a "suspension" of membership.  It also isn't clear how long in duration such a suspension would be, and how such a suspension would in fact differ from cancelling the membership and then readmitting them if/when they show up at a meeting and ask to be readmitted.  If you could clarify what you mean, it might help.

lojbab [ 2022-02-09T22:29:23Z ]

   While it has been tabled, I will note that the primary reason we have committees has nothing to do with the decision making process.  The two reasons for setting up a committee are 1) enough work of an idiosyncratic nature is required that it shouldn't necessarily have to be done by an office/Board member (thos applies to committees like byfy was) and 2) the Board wants the function to be decided involving the broader membership (and thus shouldn't be limited to the Board) and it might involve several ongoing decisions over time (and therefore is inappropriate for being decided at a single point in the annual meeting).  

lojbab [ 2022-02-09T22:35:45Z ]

   It also should be a decision by the Board, and not a single officer(which could theoretically result in packing the membership with a favored faction by suspending/cancelling everyone else).  Given that we had what was a factional takeover attempt a few years ago (because only a few people were involved at that point in the meeting, so far-reaching proposals were passed by just a few people who were very new to the organization), I am a little more sensitive on this matter.

karis [ 2022-02-10T01:13:16Z ]

   According to the Bylaws, as @lojbab mentioned, no quorum is needed, except for Bylaw amendments, when sufficient notice has been given for the meeting. During discussions during the last two Members Meetings we clarified how we will decide if someone has been sufficiently inactive over the last two meetings so it seems to me this item is now unnecessary. 

karis [ 2022-02-11T14:41:45Z ]

   We discussed this recently (in the past two years) and because reinstatement is so easy no one saw a reason not to just cancel the memberships. 

ilmen [ 2022-02-11T23:21:09Z ]

   Yeah, reinstatement of former members would expectably be quick, I don't think there's a need to distinguish membership suspension from cancellation.

gleki [ 2022-02-13T14:09:34Z ]

   Suspension is a new term that has to be formal. I'd suggest reformulate it as cancelling membership but informally retaining people as observers without removing the ability to read and comment 

karis [ 2022-02-14T03:00:56Z ]

   Since anyone can attend Members Meetings and anyone can read any materials from the meetings, I don't see a reason for starting formally or informally that they may do these things when they resign it their Membership is canceled. 

mukti [ 2022-02-15T23:53:56Z ]

   I'm inclined to agree that "suspension" would have to be defined. When members have been removed for non-participation, it's been a practice to make it clear that they are removed without prejudice to them rejoining in the future. I think that's sufficient.

karis [ 2022-02-18T21:05:09Z ]

   @channel, 
   
   Does anyone else have something to add?

and.rosta [ 2022-02-23T15:03:17Z ]

   By suspension I meant cancelling the membership in the expectation that it will be reconferred, with as little fuss as possible, when the member attends. If this creates procedural headaches, then fine to ignore it.

karis [ 2022-02-26T17:08:49Z ]

   Do you mean something like sending an email to an officer rather than the voting process?

karis [ 2022-03-01T23:09:20Z ]

   @channel, it feels like almost everyone has given up on the meeting. In any case the discussion is over. It's time to VOTE.
   
   Gleki purposes that,
   
   Gleki has agreed to return to this proposal later in the meeting since no one showed any interest in discussing it at this time.
   
   "Allow the president or alternatively present members to cancel membership of de facto inactive LLG members when quorum cannot be reached due to inactivity".
   
   Please vote yes if you think we need this motion and either no or abstain if you don't think it is necessary. Vote no, of course, if you oppose it. 

karis [ 2022-03-01T23:10:54Z ]

   The voting will be closed at 23:59 UTC on Friday, March 4.

phma [ 2022-03-02T18:04:46Z ]

   I vote yes.

ilmen [ 2022-03-08T21:00:10Z ]

   I vote yes (even though the closure date for the vote is elapsed).

mukti [ 2022-03-10T00:01:07Z ]

    I also vote yes, despite the closure date.
   
   As an aside, and not as an order of business, I would like to gently suggest that we have given the idea of conducting the meeting over an unbounded period a really good exercise. When we see people giving up on a meeting, I think we're seeing the consequences of that format. I know that I personally have a difficult time following or participating a meeting when it stretches over a period that may include illness, moves, changes of jobs, etc. If there were compelling reasons to conduct business that way, it would be one thing. I'm not convinced there are. I hope that we will consider, some time in the future, moving the meeting to a time-bounded format.

karis [ 2022-03-10T00:17:35Z ]

   I abstain. I believe this is a proposal that doesn't add anything or do anything we don't already have in our procedures. 

karis [ 2022-03-10T21:17:09Z ]

   @channel,
   
   The vote totals are, counting all votes cast to date on this proposal, as follows:
   
   Yes - 3
   
   No - 0
   
   Abstain - 1

karis [ 2022-03-10T21:18:21Z ]

   When only one person cast a vote within the time frame given I let it go for longer. It helped only a little. 

karis [ 2022-03-10T21:28:38Z ]

   .
   .
   The next two items on the agenda are also from @gleki, and are closely connected. 
   
   First he, "demands from the president of the LLG an explanation why la gleki was deprived of the right to make changes to lojban.org (which de facto paralyzed their activity on the wiki)."
   
    Following that is his proposal to, "Allow la gleki, a member of the LLG to make changes to lojban.org pages thus cancelling the command from the president of the LLG."
   
   As I am going to postpone my proposal to end the LLRC Committee to next year, this will be the last item of new business. There are no items of old business on the agenda, so the end of this meeting is coming quickly. 

karis [ 2022-03-12T02:07:27Z ]

   As the President or LLG who told gleki to stop working on lojban.org I will restate why I did so. Before hand, though, I want to say that I explained it at the time in the Members Meeting and again when gleki asked me in a direct Mattermost message. All I can think at this time is he disagrees still and wants me to look bad as the cause of work not being done since. 
   
   At that meeting we were discussing the website. We, as a group, decided that official materials should be clearly indicated. This could be by putting all the official pages together and the others in their own groupings or by labeling them.
   
   During the discussion it became very heated with @gleki accused of highlighting his own materials as if they were official.  Because he was the main person working on the website, gleki was also told to fix the webpage materials in line with the Members's decisions. He argued about how much work it was and that it couldn't feasibly be done. The result was I told him if he wouldn't follow what the Membership present wanted, then he would have to stop working on lojban.org. 

gleki [ 2022-03-12T04:04:38Z ]

   So you chose a person with most contribution to the wiki and when that person couldn't cope with that task (who knows why maybe tired because of lots of contribution) instead of trying to find other people to help this person you simply banned the main contributor!
   
   Okay, clever. But can you please allow me to contribute to other non-wiki parts of lojban.org? E.g
   . jbovlaste.lojban.org ?

gleki [ 2022-03-12T04:06:15Z ]

   By the way the word "shouldn't" is not correct
    You explicitly forbade me from making any changes to lojban.org.

karis [ 2022-03-12T14:35:27Z ]

   I "forbade" you after much arguing on your part. It was not my initial statement. Also I went to you to work on the challenge presented by needing to follow the Membership's direction because you had worked so extensively on the website. It was not a punishment. I was also not the person who initially didn't want you working on the website. 

karis [ 2022-03-12T14:39:39Z ]

   Does anyone else have comments or questions? I'm sorry that the initiator of the issue, guskant, isn't participating in this meeting. She hasn't since then. She also told us she believed we supported gleki over her on the issue which made her feel unwelcome. 

gleki [ 2022-03-12T18:33:37Z ]

   I think you are spreading lies. This is the quote from February 9 2020:
   
   Put the page back, laglek, to what it was prior to your removal of mention of xorlo.  I understand you are trying to help and be proactive, however you have made unauthorized changes many times over the years causing many issues including the largest argument I have ever seen at an LLG meeting and I've seen some doozys.
   
   CENSURE
   
   channel, 
   
   As President I am hereby declaring that lagleki is no longer welcome to nor allowed to make any changes to lojban.org except to follow  my direction immediately above. This is well within my rights and responsibilities. 

gleki [ 2022-03-12T18:35:41Z ]

   Hereby i request to explain the real reason for that decision and what were changes i made and what was the previous state before supposed  "removal of mention of xorlo". I failed to change that page because you never explained what you meant. Please, provide links to the diffs of the page in question or other information that led tou to believe such changes were made.

gleki [ 2022-03-12T18:37:09Z ]

   Such unexplicable censure implies that any member of the LLG can be denied any further activity just because the president was in bad mood etc.

karis [ 2022-03-14T01:02:18Z ]

   It wasn't inexplicable, except to you as far as I can tell. I've given my "real reasons" several times and you've refused to accept that they could be my reasons. How does your repeated questioning on this and your insistence to take Member Meeting time again for this show anyone you'll be willing to listen to directions or general guidance from this group, the Board, or the Officers?

lojbab [ 2022-03-14T23:03:32Z ]

   I accept the position of the President based on the prior vote of the membership (noting that web management decisions probably should normally be part of the domain of the Secretary/Treasurer). Since we do value his contributions, gleki should be able to/allowed to propose and negotiate an approach which allows him to work on the website in a way that is consistent with the membership direction at least in spirit.  If that approach requires a change in the direction, it can be brought before the membership or the Board depending on whether the members' meeting is in session.  But we do want to also respect guskant's reasons for objecting as well.  The long-lasting feud between gleki and guskant shouldn't be allowed to stop all work on the website, so some solution is desirable.

phma [ 2022-03-15T11:04:22Z ]

   I'd like to see gleki reinstated as contributing to the website, as long as he doesn't mess up the distinction between official and non-official pages.

karis [ 2022-03-16T00:20:02Z ]

   My main concern about letting gleki work on the website is that he has a history of not following directions. For example, when he put together the list of changes to the CLL he was told specifically to wait before posting the list for approval. He didn't. 

lojbab [ 2022-03-16T01:20:55Z ]

   Perhaps he (and others in a similar not-fully-trusted situation) can create edited pages (with appropriate official/non-official markings, however such markings are supposed to be made), which would then be privately queued for the Secretary/Treasurer, acting as moderator, to OK, at which point they could replace or be added into the public pages.  I don't know/remember enough about how github is supposed to work, but I thought it allowed for some sort of version management.  But then the wiki software might provide that function as well.  So long as there is a moderating check made on any pages that he modifies, with an option to disapprove/rescind any proposed/posted change, we should be able to meet everyone's needs.  And establishing a record of following the standards, the restrictions could eventually be lifted.  Meanwhile, he is allowed to usefully contribute.  But again, I don't have strong feelings on this or on any particular process/methodology of change-control, and trust karis and mukti to decide what meets their needs (and time constraints).

karis [ 2022-03-17T15:40:42Z ]

   That works for me. It also might be a good way for people to start working on the webpage who haven't worked on it before. 

karis [ 2022-03-20T00:55:13Z ]

   @channel, 
   
   I'll leave the discussion on @gleki's proposal open until until 23:59 UTC on Monday, March 21st. If the discussion hasn't been continued by then I will present the options as given here and ask for votes. If people want to keep talking about it then please post something before the end time given. 

ilmen [ 2022-03-20T21:15:14Z ]

   > First he, "demands from the president of the LLG an explanation why la gleki was deprived of the right to make changes to lojban.org (which de facto paralyzed their activity on the wiki)."
   
   He's disallowed to make change to any page, not just LLG, BPFK or other official contents?

ilmen [ 2022-03-20T21:16:55Z ]

   The lojban.org website doesn't host only materials that is validated and endoresed by the LLG or the LFK/BPFK; any user registered on the wiki can edit pages (except a few pages of restricted access, such as the main page) and express their opinion on this or that topic or language issue.

ilmen [ 2022-03-20T21:18:27Z ]

   It would be odd to forbid Gleki from editing pages which other users already can edit.

ilmen [ 2022-03-20T21:19:13Z ]

   (Irrespectively of the issue of whether they should be allowed to edit official content or not.)

ilmen [ 2022-03-20T21:21:21Z ]

   As has already been discussed in the past, ideally the official LLG-endorsed content should be placed in a dedicated section of the lojban.org website, with restricted edit access (and an ostensible indication that the material is official, as indicated e.g. by some reasonably visible header/label at the top of the page).

ilmen [ 2022-03-20T21:23:47Z ]

   I guess it would be best that edits to such restricted-access official material are made in accordance to the will of the Board as a whole (as opposed to the whim of a single member thereof, except presumably for minor modifications such as typo fixings), and that edits made to such official content be monitored by the Board (through the wiki page history system).

ilmen [ 2022-03-20T21:29:03Z ]

   There exists a Mediawiki extension named “EditNotify” which allows users to be automatically notified of any edit made to pages belonging to one or more selected categories; I assume it would allow Board members to all get notifications of all edits made to pages belonging to the LLG section or any other official material section.

karis [ 2022-03-22T09:17:57Z ]

   @channel,
   
   Discussion continued... 

karis [ 2022-03-22T14:33:37Z ]

   There was a process by which @gleki lost this privilege. No one else has done anything similar to our webpages, therefore no one else has, nor would experience the same or similar consequence.
   
   At any time @gleki could have gone to any of the Officers or Board and said he was willing to clearly mark his material as not official, and official material as such. Instead he chose to attack me in this Membership Meeting.
   
   Despite his continuing refusal to differentiate the types of material and his method of raising the issue I agree with several of the comments on how to move forward made above. 

karis [ 2022-03-22T14:37:25Z ]

   One question I have for those more experiences with webpages like lojban.org is how difficult would it be to separate the pages into the subsections of material? 

gleki [ 2022-03-22T15:07:37Z ]

   This is false information again. If you look at the front page then the last 50 edits were made by at least 6 different users. 

gleki [ 2022-03-22T15:07:39Z ]

   https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Welcome!/en&action=history

gleki [ 2022-03-22T15:08:16Z ]

   Not to mention the front page continues to present false information about xorlo and no one fixed it.

gleki [ 2022-03-22T15:14:33Z ]

   There are two types of people here
   1. those who want to change Lojbanm break its grammar, change its grammar forever making newcomers carrot chase them forever instead of practicing it.
   2. people who do not even try to learn Lojban and who speak other languages, mostly, English.
   
   However, I'd like to see people who
   3. Just practice Lojban as given, write stuff in it, use it.
   
   I can't see lots of such people here.
   Therefore, I resign from the LLG Board and LLG membership and will continue my Lojbanic activities unofficially. If the doom of the LLG is to be hijacked by those heretics then let it be. Lojban materials can't be erased that easily even if you shutdown lojban.org.
   Goodbye.

gleki [ 2022-03-22T15:14:42Z ]

   @gleki a quitté le canal.

karis [ 2022-03-22T21:05:59Z ]

   @channel,
   
   Do any of you think we should continue to address the current topic at this time since gleki has resigned? I've removed my proposal to terminate the LLRC Committee so all that remains after this is another proposal by gleki that is now unnecessary. It read, "Allow la gleki, a member of the LLG to make changes to lojban.org pages thus cancelling the command from the president of the LLG." 

phma [ 2022-03-23T00:04:10Z ]

   Seems pointless to me.

la-robotin-daiter [ 2022-03-28T04:21:58Z ]

   .i lo bavla'i se casnu cu mo
   
   What is the next discussion topic?

karis [ 2022-04-03T19:32:47Z ]

   The last topic is, "Allow la gleki, a member of the LLG to make changes to lojban.org pages thus cancelling the command from the president of the LLG." 

karis [ 2022-04-03T20:04:18Z ]

    ANY MORE BUSINESS?
   
   @channel,
   
   If no one speaks up to disagree, ask for more discussion, or have another proposal we should address before the end of the meeting by 23:59 UTC on Wednesday, April 6th the agenda will be complete. 

karis [ 2022-04-08T07:57:25Z ]

   * AGENDA
   
   It would make our next meeting run smother and likely faster as well if everyone added and topics for discussion or written out proposals for a vote on the agenda between now and the end of July. If you think of something after that you may add it, or course. It just won't be posted for many logbanists, learners, and supporters to see in advance. 
   
   https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vKmfbE0HU90zubg8EwYBoAtdZoIo4ubfRVoG4W9mF8s/edit?usp=drivesdk

karis [ 2022-04-11T02:41:38Z ]

   @channel,
   
   Please put on your calendars to start looking for posts elsewhere and messages here regarding the next meeting in mid to late August, 2022.

karis [ 2022-04-11T02:45:50Z ]

   END OF MEETING
   
   @channel,
   
   There are no more items to address on this meeting's agenda, and no one has raised any further business. As a result I am using my privilege under Robert's Rules of Order to declare this Membership Meeting concluded at 02:45 UTC on April 10, 2022.

lalxu [ 2022-06-09T10:50:01Z ]

   lalxu a rejoint le canal.

fatci [ 2022-06-15T19:27:44Z ]

   fatci a rejoint le canal.