using Undefined Gismu as Names

{CODE(wrap="1]]jbocre: 09:07 <tomoj> why shouldn't morphological gismu that aren't actually gismu be acceptable names?

jbocre: 09:07 <vensa> who said they shouldnt?

jbocre: 09:08 <tomoj> like {la tomjo}

jbocre: 09:08 <vensa> tomoj: who said you cant?

jbocre: 09:08 <vensa> I'm all for it

jbocre: 09:08 <tomoj> uhh

jbocre: 09:08 <tomoj> it is not orthodox

jbocre: 09:08 <vensa> tomoj: says who?

jbocre: 09:08 <vensa> maybe nobody thought of it yet

jbocre: 09:08 <vensa> I like it

jbocre: 09:08 <lindar> People have.

jbocre: 09:09 <lindar> What if that name ends up getting used?

jbocre: 09:09 <tomoj> then you wind up with a probably interesting description-based name

jbocre: 09:09 <vensa> yep

jbocre: 09:10 <selckiku> i'll say it, i don't think that's a sensible thing to do

jbocre: 09:10 <selckiku> it slightly confuses me and it's new, so i'm opposed to it

jbocre: 09:10 <tomoj> me neither, now that I think about it

jbocre: 09:10 <vensa> just like what if your name ends up being a meaningful rafsi combination

jbocre: 09:10 <vensa> selckiku: you opposed to new things in general?

jbocre: 09:10 <tomoj> the grammar says you can stick a selbri after LA

jbocre: 09:10 <vensa> or just things that confuse you ? :P

jbocre: 09:10 <lindar> Like what if Broca actually uses {la broca}, and then in a year suddenly we start a gismu {broca} that means "x1 is a puss/wimp that can't do x2 and licks giant sweaty balls x3 while being sodomised in orifice x4 by big sloppy dong x5.".

jbocre: 09:10 <tomoj> if *{tomjo} counts as a selbri, then I should be able to use it outside of names too

jbocre: 09:11 <vensa> tomoj: you CAN

jbocre: 09:11 <vensa> it just want make SEMANTIC sense

jbocre: 09:11 <vensa> .u'i lindar

jbocre: 09:11 <lindar> Then suddenly he's named "the pussy that can't do shit and licks giant sweaty balls while being sodomised by a big sloppy dong.".

jbocre: 09:11 <lindar> That's my only issue, really.

jbocre: 09:11 <selckiku> i'm not really opposed to new things, i was kidding or something

jbocre: 09:12 <selckiku> but honestly that doesn't make much sense to me... description names are lojban words, not just random lojbanny shaped thingies

jbocre: 09:12 <vensa> lindar: <vensa> just like what if your name ends up being a meaningful rafsi combination

jbocre: 09:12 <lindar> Sure, something like that.

jbocre: 09:12 <vensa> lindar: so it can happen to cmelva too

jbocre: 09:12 * lindar is actually named Lindar, and finds the coincidence hilarious.

jbocre: 09:12 <vensa> valsi affix: lin

jbocre: 09:12 <valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/affix%3A+lin

jbocre: 09:12 <vensa> valsi affix: dar

jbocre: 09:12 <valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/affix%3A+dar

jbocre: 09:12 <selckiku> half of my name "mungodjelis" was jvocme so i made that lujvo, djelisri

jbocre: 09:12 <tomoj> it can't happen to cmevla

jbocre: 09:13 <vensa> valsi affix:dar

jbocre: 09:13 <valsi> linsi = x1 is a length of chain/links of material x2 with link properties x3.

jbocre: 09:13 <valsi> darno = x1 is far/distant from x2 in property x3 (ka).

jbocre: 09:13 <vensa> "chain far"!

jbocre: 09:13 <vensa> heh

jbocre: 09:13 <selckiku> lindar, how'd u get a name like "Lindar" anyway? where's that from?

jbocre: 09:13 <lindar> Lord of the Rings. >_>

jbocre: 09:13 * lindar tells non-geeks it's welsh.

jbocre: 09:13 <tomoj> if it's a cmevla, any meaning you associate to it as a rafsi chain is not fixed by the language

jbocre: 09:13 * ctino thinks that is far too awesome.

jbocre: 09:13 <vensa> tomoj: y not. just showed you

jbocre: 09:14 <selckiku> jvocme are a tradition, though... they're not really quite meaningless

jbocre: 09:14 * kucli is a friend of elves

jbocre: 09:14 <tomoj> the language doesn't say that cmevla that look like rafsi components have anything to do with the meanings of the valsi for those rafsi

jbocre: 09:14 <selckiku> it's not meaningless that camgusmis is named "camgusmis", i think about bright lights and fame every time i say it

jbocre: 09:14 <tomoj> right

jbocre: 09:14 <tomoj> it's only by suggestion

jbocre: 09:14 <vensa> tomoj: I recall seeing that it does

jbocre: 09:14 <tomoj> you can tell that their name looks like a rafsi chain and know that they did this on purpose

jbocre: 09:14 <tomoj> but really the language is mute on the subject

jbocre: 09:15 <vensa> perhaps

jbocre: 09:15 <vensa> but it is a PLAUSIBLE option

jbocre: 09:15 <selckiku> i tried to get everyone to call them "jvosmicmevla" but people are saying "jvocme" instead b/c they don't like clajvo, o well

jbocre: 09:15 <vensa> so would it only be PLAUSIBLE that {broca} chose his name according to the gismu of "pussy"

jbocre: 09:15 <Twey> o.@

jbocre: 09:16 <selckiku> it doesn't have denotative meaning, but it has some connotative meaning

jbocre: 09:16 <tomoj> yeah

jbocre: 09:16 <vensa> whatever that means

jbocre: 09:16 <lindar> We're discussing two different things here.

jbocre: 09:17 <vensa> I'm putting this in the discussions section later :)

jbocre: 09:17 <lindar> I was saying that if somebody names themselves $namethatisanundefinedgismu and then we define that gismu... then what?

jbocre: 09:17 <vensa> selckiku: yes, but with english font

jbocre: 09:17 <vensa> lindar: what difference is that from {lindar} that happens to be a rafsi chain?

jbocre: 09:17 <tomoj> then there name acquires a selbri meaning, so what?

jbocre: 09:17 <vensa> maybe its on purpose, maybe not

jbocre: 09:17 <@Broca> If someone calls themselves $namethatisundefinedgismu _in Lojban_, they're doing it wrong.

jbocre: 09:17 <tomoj> er, their

jbocre: 09:17 <selckiku> it's so multilingual in here! next thing you know we'll actually be culturally neutral

jbocre: 09:17 <lindar> vensa: Because THOSE names have incidental meaning.

jbocre: 09:17 <tomoj> Broca: say {tomjo}

jbocre: 09:18 <vensa> lindar: IMO a gismu name can be incidental as wel

jbocre: 09:18 <vensa> as long as it's "la selbri"

jbocre: 09:18 <lindar> If I name myself {donri} then I'm not going to be an asshole and say, "No, I'm not called 'Day', it's just 'donri' the letters.".

jbocre: 09:18 <vensa> maybe I call myself {la ganxo} because I like the sound of it :)

jbocre: 09:18 <lindar> Yeah, no.

jbocre: 09:18 <lindar> Please adhere to a policy of non-gluteality.

jbocre: 09:19 <tomoj> wait, yeah or no?

jbocre: 09:19 <vensa> lindar: some people call their children English names, based solely on the sound, without even knowing the def sometimes

jbocre: 09:19 <lindar> If my name was "Shite", it means "Shite".

jbocre: 09:19 <vensa> ctino: he ivrit shelcha metzuyenet

jbocre: 09:19 <ctino> selckiku: it's nice isn't it? lojban actually has more people from different cultures than I realized.

jbocre: 09:20 <selckiku> someday there'll be thousands of jbopre, and all of the gismu will have been someone's name sometime

jbocre: 09:20 <vensa> tomoj: I suspect the Yeah was cinical (lindarP) :)

jbocre: 09:20 <lindar> If my name is "Rose", then it's fucking "Rose". If my name is "Blue" then my name is "Blue". If your name is {xalbo} then your name is actually {xalbo}. Do you see what I'm saying?

jbocre: 09:20 <vensa> lindar: no

jbocre: 09:20 <lindar> Words have definitions, regardless of whether or not they're also names.

jbocre: 09:20 <selckiku> i think a lot about why la xalbo chose "xalbo" and what it means to him

jbocre: 09:20 <lindar> You don't get to detach the meaning just because you like the -sound- of the name.

jbocre: 09:20 <vensa> lindar: yes

jbocre: 09:20 <selckiku> it's a very interesting choice of name

jbocre: 09:20 <ctino> vensa: todah, haha.

jbocre: 09:21 <lindar> Stop saying no and yes. There's no scale set. It's not a yes or no question.

jbocre: 09:21 <vensa> lindar: but that doesnt mean the definition was intended by the name chooser. agreed?

jbocre: 09:21 <lindar> >_> In this case, yes it fucking does.

jbocre: 09:21 <vensa> what is "this case"?!

jbocre: 09:22 <lindar> Ignore all of the old names like "john" and "mary" and shit that have a meaning but not in English. If you name your kid "Crystal", the kid's name is fucking "Crystal".

jbocre: 09:22 <lindar> It's a word in English with a meaning.

jbocre: 09:22 <vensa> lindar: someone can call their child "auburn" without knowing it's a color

jbocre: 09:22 <vensa> yes it has a meaning

jbocre: 09:22 <lindar> FUCK those people. They shouldn't be allowed to breed.

jbocre: 09:22 <vensa> but some word's meaning are less clear

jbocre: 09:22 <vensa> .u'isai

jbocre: 09:22 <lindar> Bro, Lojban here.

jbocre: 09:23 <lindar> The words are very clear.

jbocre: 09:23 <vensa> all I'm saying is that meaning is not always transparent

jbocre: 09:23 <selckiku> i remember when there was hardly anyone named a gismu

jbocre: 09:23 <vensa> just like you can have nicknames who's original name isnt clear

jbocre: 09:23 <lindar> Dude, your name in English is "Springtime".

jbocre: 09:23 <selckiku> i used to wonder "why don't people choose gismu names? all the gismu are available!"

jbocre: 09:23 <lindar> Guess what it means?

jbocre: 09:23 <vensa> e.g.: larry is short for lawrence. did you know that?

jbocre: 09:23 <lindar> Yes.

jbocre: 09:23 <ksion> coi la kucli

jbocre: 09:23 <ctino> The only reason I use a gismu name is because my alias is Amber Shadow and I didn't want to lojbanize it :3

jbocre: 09:23 <ksion> coi rodo .enai la lindar no'u se fanza u'i

jbocre: 09:24 <selckiku> "kucli" is a nice gi'ucme

jbocre: 09:24 <selckiku> i've always loved the word "kucli"

jbocre: 09:24 <tomoj> so some names have associated meanings

jbocre: 09:24 <lindar> In Lojban, {selckiku} ACTUALLY means means "lock".

jbocre: 09:24 <tomoj> why does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to use names with no associated meaning?

jbocre: 09:24 <vensa> lindar: are you disagreeing with me when it comes to lojban only? or in english as well?

jbocre: 09:24 <tomoj> cmevla are just that way

jbocre: 09:24 <selckiku> as does "stela", so my name is Lock Lock :D

jbocre: 09:24 <tomoj> why not also selbri-shaped names?

jbocre: 09:24 <vensa> yes! tomoj +1

jbocre: 09:25 <lindar> >_>

jbocre: 09:25 <ctino> selckiku: I figured that out today xD

jbocre: 09:25 <selckiku> there's no meaning associated with "clsn".. that's a neat shape for a name

jbocre: 09:25 <lindar> The FACT of the matter is that it is DEFINED as "The one named...".

jbocre: 09:25 <tomoj> also, jabberwocky

jbocre: 09:25 <tomoj> a lojban translation of jabberwocky should use morphological selbri that aren't actual selbri

jbocre: 09:25 <lindar> So {la xalbo} is unambiguously DEFINED as "The one named 'levitous-thing'.". That's what it means.

jbocre: 09:26 <tomoj> perhaps some morphological cmavo and fu'ivla too?

jbocre: 09:26 <lindar> You don't get to say, "Ah, no, I don't feel like doing that. I want my name to be a gismu, but I'm special, so it doesn't actually mean that for me.".

jbocre: 09:26 <vensa> lindar: all im saying is that it doesnt neccessarily mean that {la xalbo} is aware of the meaning of his name, or wether he chose it BECAUSE of its meaning

jbocre: 09:26 <tomoj> sure you do

jbocre: 09:26 <lindar> la donri is "The one named 'Day'.".

jbocre: 09:26 <vensa> of course he did in this case

jbocre: 09:26 <tomoj> we get to pick our own names

jbocre: 09:26 <vensa> but it doesnt have to be

jbocre: 09:26 <lindar> >_>

jbocre: 09:26 <selckiku> the translation of jabberwocky we have is by xorxes right?

jbocre: 09:26 <lindar> YES IT DOES

jbocre: 09:26 <tomoj> if I want to be named 'fatass', why can't I be?

jbocre: 09:27 <lindar> THAT'S HOW IT'S FUCKING WRITTEN IN THE BOOK THAT TELLS US HOW TO SPEAK LOJBAN

jbocre: 09:27 <lindar> IT -DOES- HAVE TO BE

jbocre: 09:27 <vensa> lindar: where?!

jbocre: 09:27 <tomoj> jeebus

jbocre: 09:27 <selckiku> WHY ARE WE YELLING

jbocre: 09:27 <tomoj> take a chill pill

jbocre: 09:27 <ctino> BECAUSE YELLING IS FUN

jbocre: 09:27 <vensa> lindar: the book doesnt tell us what to THINK

jbocre: 09:27 <ctino> u'i

jbocre: 09:27 <tomoj> there's some candy like tic-tacs called "chill", lol

jbocre: 09:28 <ctino> I love tic-tacs.

jbocre: 09:28 <vensa> seems like any discussion involving me and lindar can never come to an end :)

jbocre: 09:28 <ctino> Haha.

jbocre: 09:28 <vensa> or is it just lindar and anybody? :P

jbocre: 09:29 <vensa> or me and anybody?

jbocre: 09:29 <ctino> Lindar and anybody.

jbocre: 09:29 <tomoj> unstoppable force + immovable object

jbocre: 09:29 <Twey> ctino: What do you think of that lindar and vensa, eh, eh?

jbocre: 09:29 <vensa> I'm pretty stubborn myself :)

jbocre: 09:29 <vensa> tomoj u'isai

jbocre: 09:29 <ctino> Twey: Entertaining.

jbocre: 09:29 <vensa> :)

jbocre: 09:30 <vensa> lindar is quite so I suspect he actually went to the books

jbocre: 09:30 <vensa> *quiet

jbocre: 09:30 <ctino> Probably.

jbocre: 09:30 <ctino> I know I would have.

jbocre: 09:30 <vensa> when he comes back, all hell will break out

jbocre: 09:30 <ctino> Haha.

jbocre: 09:30 <ctino> The quiet before the storm.

jbocre: 09:30 <vensa> what happens if I leave before he comes back? :P

jbocre: 09:30 <ctino> >_>

jbocre: 09:30 <vensa> .y

jbocre: 09:31 <vensa> shhhhh... "i'm not here..."

jbocre: 09:31 <ctino> So what's the synopsis of this debate?

jbocre: 09:31 <vensa> we'll have to wait for lindar to return for that

jbocre: 09:31 <ksion> vensa: That's mostly because is mutce certu loka fanza ;)

jbocre: 09:31 <vensa> it's not over till the british elf screams

jbocre: 09:32 <ksion> vensa: lindar is*

jbocre: 09:32 <ctino> xD

jbocre: 09:32 <tomoj> wat

jbocre: 09:32 <vensa> ksion: :)

jbocre: 09:33 == zugz jbocre: ~zugz@193.52.24.4 has joined #lojban

jbocre: 09:33 <lindar> What's up now?

jbocre: 09:33 <ctino> I wanna know what the synopsis of your debate is.

jbocre: 09:33 <lindar> btw: Not to be picky/whiney or anything, but I would appreciate the favour of you referring to be as a spivvak. =/

jbocre: 09:33 <lindar> *to me as

jbocre: 09:35 <lindar> Short version: If you have a brivla name, you picked it. It always has the meaning. You can't divorce a gismu from the meaning just because it's a name. That's like naming a kid "Hope" and then saying, "It's a really cool name, but I never looked it up to find out what it means.".

jbocre: 09:36 <ctino> Hm. Okay, thanks.

jbocre: 09:36 <tomoj> certainly that's conceivable{CODE}

(edited to remove some irrelevant chatter) - lindar