pronunciation guide in Italian: Difference between revisions

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An attempt to make an answer key for the [[jbocre: minilesson|minilesson]]. [[jbocre: pne|pne]]'ve provided a suggested format which only gives answers. ''Commented'' answers were promised, so if someone wants to add comments to (some of) the answers, they're welcome to do so.
Guida alla pronuncia Lojban per Italiani


5f and 5h don't need the leading "zo'e" unless you buy into observative weirdness. Otherwise, it looks quite good. I usually only checked the first couple of each section to make sure it looked like you knew what you're doing. (All the questions seem to be fairly formulaic, so I'm sure outside of typos and thinkos, its all OK.)
'''*** Vocali ***'''


''Thanks. However, the minilesson doesn't mention observatives, and teaches about omitting {zo'e}s only at the end of bridis (there's even a ''Reminder: only trailing "zo'e"s may be dropped in this way'' at the beginning of the exercise). So I'd say that as an answer key, the {zo'e}s should stay (though a comment as part of the answer may introduce observatives). I'll leave that bit up to better pedagogues, however.''
'''a'''  '''a'''cqu'''a''', '''a'''m'''a'''re


-----
'''e'''  '''e'''n'''e'''rgia


In the following exercises, the numbers on the exercises refer to the section number where the key point of the exercise was explained.
'''i'''  '''i'''deolog'''i'''a


#The concept of the predicate
'''o'''  '''o'''ss'''o''', '''o'''n'''o'''re


**Questions:
'''u''' '''u'''no, '''u'''guale, d'''u'''bbio
***a. Look at the example sentence in the diagram for Section 1.  What part of speech are "John" and "Sam"?  What part of speech is used to describe the relationship between them?


****''(1) (proper) noun; (2) verb''
'''y'''  femm'''e'''ne, campaniell'''o''', Napul'''e''', chiagn'''e''' (Napoletano). Suono vocalico indistinto come al termine della parola inglese ''the'' o francese ''petit''.
***b. In Lojban, what is the whole statement called?


****''bridi''
'''*** Dittonghi ***'''


#Place structures
'''ai'''  giamm'''ai''', d'''ai'''


**Questions:
'''au'''  '''au'''torizzare, '''au'''mentare
***Where can you find the place structure for a gismu given?


****''In the gismu word-list''
'''ei'''  s'''ei''', l'''ei'''


#Pronunciation
'''oi'''  p'''oi''', gli er'''oi'''


**Questions:
'''ia''' p'''ia'''no, p'''ia'''zza, p'''ia'''cere
***a. What English letter corresponds to the sound of the Lojban apostrophe?


****''h''
'''ie'''  '''ie'''ri, p'''ie'''tro, c'''ie'''co
***b. Which Lojban vowel is never stressed?


****''y''
'''ii'''  magn'''i'''fico, ogn'''i'''
***Which syllable in the following words is stressed?


***c. cmalu
'''io''' p'''io'''ggia, p'''io'''mbo
****''CMAlu''


***d. brivla
'''iu''' p'''iu'''ttosto
****''BRIvla''


***e. bardymau
'''ua''' q'''ua'''ttro, q'''ua'''lità
****''BARDymau''


***f. bardyma'i
'''ue''' q'''ue'''sto
****''bardyMA'i''


***g. mai
'''ui''' "(io) f'''ui'''"
****''MAI''


*****It may be stressed, but need not be stressed.
'''uo'''  '''uo'''mo, c'''uo'''re, "p'''uò''' darsi"
*****Actually, on re-reading the minilesson, this answer is wrong; it should be ''mai''. The text reads ''If a word only has one syllable, then that syllable is not stressed.'' (I'll agree that the "official" rules are slightly more complex, dealing as they do with whether the cmavo comes directly before a brivla without a pause, and son on.) But from the minilessons, the only correct answer is "mai, unstressed".


#Single words that can act as sumti
'''uu'''  suono '''u''' prolungato


**Translate the following into English:
'''*** Consonanti ***'''
***a.  mi tavla do ti ma


****''I speak to you about this in what language?''
'''b'''  '''b'''asso, '''b'''am'''b'''ino, '''b'''a'''bb'''o
***b.  do tavla mi ta tu


****''You speak to me about that in that other language.''
'''c'''  '''sc'''immia, la'''sc'''iare, a'''sc'''iugamano,
*****It is hard to point to a language though.


*****True. The example is not mine, though, and the lessons haven't got access to a whole lot of vocabulary at this point. Something like ''ti tavla mi ta do'' would be even weirder, though.
'''d'''  '''d'''entro, an'''d'''are
***c.  do tavla zo'e ma zo'e


****''You talk (to someone) about what (in some language)? What are you talking about?''
'''f'''  '''f'''anciulla, so'''ff'''ocare
***d. do tavla ta zo'e ti


****''You talk to that person (about something) in this language.''
'''g'''  '''g'''atto, pa'''g'''are
***e. mi tavla zo'e zo'e zo'e


****''I talk (to someone, about some subject, in some language). I am talking.''
'''j'''  la '''g''' dolce intervocalica in Toscano. Come il Francese ''bon'''j'''our'' o l'inglese ''mea'''s'''ure''
***f.  zo'e tavla zo'e mi zo'e


****''Someone talks (to someone) about me (in some language). I am being talked about.''
'''k'''  '''k'''ilometro, '''c'''avallo, '''ch'''ia'''cch'''ierare
***g. mi tavla ta do ti


****''I'm talking to that person about you in this language.''
'''l'''  '''l'''una, pa'''ll'''ido
**Translate the following into Lojban:


***h. Someone talks to me about you in some language.
'''m''' '''m'''ano, a'''m'''ore
****''zo'e tavla mi do zo'e''


***i. This person talks to that person about me in some language.
'''n''' '''n'''o'''nn'''o, '''n'''otizia
****''ti tavla ta mi zo'e''


***j. Who is talking to you about me in this language?
'''p''' '''p'''asqua, o'''pp'''ure,
****''ma tavla do mi ti''


***k. You talk to me about you in this language.
'''r''' '''r'''idere, '''r'''ing'''r'''azia'''r'''e
****''do tavla mi do ti''


***l. Who is talking to whom about whom in what language?
'''s''' '''s'''apienza, '''s'''olitudine
****''ma tavla ma ma ma''


#Ellipsis
'''t'''  '''t'''orre, studen'''t'''e


**Rewrite the Lojban sentences given in section 4, as well as the ones you wrote for section 4, ellipsizing as many "zo'e"s as you can without changing the meaning of the sentences.  (Reminder: only trailing "zo'e"s may be dropped in this way.)
'''v'''  '''v'''erità, ne'''v'''icare,
***a.


****''mi tavla do ti ma''
'''x'''  la '''c''' dura intervocalica in Toscano. Aspirata come in "Ba'''ch'''" o "Lo'''ch''' Ness"
***b.


****''do tavla mi ta tu''
'''z'''  a'''z'''ienda, ro'''zz'''a, '''z'''otico ('''z''' sorda, non sonora come in '''z'''aino o a'''z'''oto)
***c.


****''do tavla zo'e ma''
'''''''  breve aspirazione tra due vocali. La '''h''' inglese in '''h'''otel.
***d.


****''do tavla ta zo'e ti''
mi'e [[.aulun.|.aulun.]]
***e.


****''mi tavla''
''Re "without the plosive"... I thought the intention was that if a language hasn't got a certain sound, to leave it out rather than providing one which is similar but "wrong". Italians have to distinguish between '''dj''' and '''j''', and between '''dz''' and '''z'''; if their language misleads them to pronounce '''j''' as '''dj''' because of the examples {g}, then perhaps {g} is not a good example. mi'e [[filip|filip]]''
***f.


****''zo'e tavla zo'e mi''
filip, as far as I do understand the very purpose of these charts, they are to give foreign students of Lojban (without any further knowledge of other languages than their native tongue) an idea of Lojban phonology. If this is correct, it has to be preferred to give any hint possible to reach that goal, hasn't it? --[[.aulun.|.aulun.]]
***g.


****''mi tavla ta do ti''
Page reformatted. Added some more example for the more difficult cases ('''j''','''x''',''''''','''y''') that have no correspondence to Italian sounds. Also redone '''z''' --[[remod|remod]]
***h.
 
****''zo'e tavla mi do''
***i.
 
****''ti tavla ta mi''
***j.
 
****''ma tavla do mi ti''
***k.
 
****''do tavla mi do ti''
***l.
 
****''ma tavla ma ma ma''
 
#Variant forms of the bridi
 
**Questions:
***a.  Rewrite the sentence  "mi tavla da ti ma"  in four different forms by changing the position of the selbri.
 
****-
*****''mi tavla da ti ma''
 
****-
*****''mi da tavla ti ma''
 
****-
*****''mi da ti tavla ma''
 
****-
*****''mi da ti ma tavla''
 
***b.  According to the principles given in section 6, how many different forms can the sentence  "mi tavla do"  have?  Do not count any variations made by adding "zo'e"s to the end of the sentence.
****''Two:''
 
#####''mi tavla do''
 
#####''mi do tavla''
 
***c.  How many forms can  "mi klama ta ti ma do"  have?  The selbri here is "klama".
****''Five:''
 
#####''mi klama ta ti ma do''
 
#####''mi ta klama ti ma do''
 
#####''mi ta ti klama ma do''
 
#####''mi ta ti ma klama do''
 
#####''mi ta ti ma do klama''
 
#sumti switching
 
**Show the "se" forms of the following bridi.
**Examples:
 
***''mi tavla do ti''          answer:  ''do se tavla mi ti''
***''do klama ma ti zo'e''      answer:  ''ma se klama do ti zo'e''
 
**Questions:
***a.  do tavla mi
 
****''mi se tavla do''
***b.  ti tavla do ma
 
****''do se tavla ti ma''
***c.  da klama ti ta zo'e mi
 
****''ti se klama da ta zo'e mi''
***d.  mi tavla mi
 
****''mi se tavla mi''
***e.  do catlu tu
 
****''tu se catlu do''
**Show the "te" forms of the following bridi.
 
**Examples:
***''mi klama ta ti''          answer:  ''ti te klama ta mi''
 
***''do tavla mi ma zo'e''      answer:  ''ma te tavla mi do zo'e''
***''do mi ma zo'e tavla''      answer:  ''ma mi do zo'e te tavla''
 
**(Don't be frightened by this one.  The selbri is in a different position, which does not affect the order of the sumti.  The "te" simply switches the first and third sumti.
**Questions:
 
***f.  do klama mi ta zo'e
****''ta te klama mi do zo'e'' or ''ta te klama mi do''
 
***g.  ti ta tu zo'e tavla
****''tu ta ti zo'e te tavla'' or ''tu ta ti te tavla''
 
***h.  mi tavla zo'e do ti
****''do te tavla zo'e mi ti''
 
***i.  da klama tu zo'e zo'e
****''zo'e te klama tu da zo'e'' or ''zo'e te klama tu da''
 
***j.  mi tu klama ta zo'e do
****''ta tu te klama mi zo'e do''
 
#selbri modification
 
**Give a translation of the following selbri.
**Examples:
 
***''sutra cutci''      _s1_ is a fast shoe
***''cutra se tavla''  _s1_ is a fast talked-to person/thing, talked to by _s2_ about subject _s3_ in language _s4_
 
**Questions:
***a.  cutci tavla
 
****''_s1_ is a shoe-type-of talker to _s2_ about subject _s3_ in language _s4_''
***b.  cutci te tavla
 
****''_s1_ is a shoe-type-of-subject of talk to _s2_ by _s3_ in language _s4_''
***c.  se tavla cutci
 
****''_s1_ is a talked-to shoe''
***d.  sutra cutci ve tavla
 
****''_s1_ is a fast-shoe type of language used to talk to _s2_ about subject _s3_ by _s4_''
**Definition:  ''blanu''    _s1_ is blue/is a blue thing.
 
***e.  blanu cutci
****''_s1_ is a blue shoe''
 
***f.  sutra blanu
****''_s1_ is a fast blue thing''
 
***g.  tavla blanu
****''_s1_ is a talking blue thing''
 
#Converting a selbri to a sumti
 
**Translate the following sumti.
**Examples:
 
***''le cutci''        the shoe
***''le ve tavla''      the language (someone talks in)
 
***''le sutra tavla''  the fast shoe
****'''Note: this should be "the fast talker"! (Mistake in the lessons.)''' mi'e [[jbocre: pne|pne]]
 
**Questions:
***a.  le te tavla
 
****''the subject of talk''
***b.  le se tavla
 
****''the audience; the talked-to person''
***c.  le sutra
 
****''the fast thing''
***d.  le cutci tavla
 
****''the shoe talker''
***e.  le blanu te tavla
 
****''the blue subject (of talk)''
***f.  le sutra cutci
 
****''the fast shoe''
 
#Marking the selbri
 
**In which of the following can the "cu" be dropped without changing the meaning:
***a.  le sutra cutci cu tavla
 
****''Can't drop''
***b.  mi cu sutra
 
****''Can drop''
***c.  mi do le cutci cu tavla
 
****''Can't drop''
***d.  mi le cutci do cu tavla
 
****''Can drop''
***e.  mi do cu tavla le cutci
 
****''Can drop''
 
#Names
 
**Translate the following common English names from Lojban to English.
***a.  normen.
 
****''Norman''
***b.  meris.
 
****''Mary''
***c.  kar,l.
 
****''Carl''
***d.  tcarlis.
 
****''Charly''
***e.  ker,l.
 
****''Carol''
**Transcribe these names into Lojban:
 
***f.  Tom
****''tom.''
 
***g.  Ray
****''reis.''
 
***h.  Sylvia
****''silvi,as.''
 
***i.  Marilyn
****''merylin.''
 
**Which of the following are legal Lojban names?  Suggest a possible change for each invalid name that would make it legal.
***j.  ralf.
 
****''Legal''
***k.  alan.
 
****''Illegal because of the ''la''. Try ''alyn.
***l.  lora.
 
****''Illegal; must end in a consonant. Try'' loras.
***m.  mark.
 
****''Legal''
***n.  niks,n.
 
****''Legal''
***o.  konendoil.
 
****''Illegal because of the ''doi''. Try ''konendo'il.
*****Actually it is legal, because ''doi'' is preceded by a consonant.
 
*****Could be -- but the learner cannot give this answer, if all he has to go by is the minilesson, which states that ''For obvious reasons, the letter sequence "la" may not occur inside any name. Likewise, "doi" may not appear in a name [[jbocre: ...|...]]''.
**Lojbanize the following names (these are more challenging)
 
***p.  Carla
****''karlys.''
 
*****''karlas.'' works too.
*****Not according to what the learner learned in section 11 on Names, so they can't be expected to know that. I see that the refgram (or at least the HTML version I downloaded a while back) has the "unless preceded by a consonant" caveat. The best thing might be to change the minilesson in this point.
 
***q.  Herblock
****''xerblok.''
 
***r.  Lana
****'''''leinas.''' or '''lenas.''', perhaps?''
 
***s.  Billy
****''bilis.''
 
***t.  D'Oyly Carte
****''do'ilis.kart.''
 
***u.  Poindexter
****''poindekster.''
 
#Vocatives and imperatives
 
**Translate the following sentences:
***a.  ko cutci
 
****''Be a shoe!''
***b.  doi bab. ko kurji mi
 
****''Bob! Take care of me''
***c.  ko se tavla mi
 
****''Be talked to by me!''
***d.  ko tavla ko le cutci la lojban.
 
****''Talk to yourself about the shoe in Lojban, and allow yourself to be talked to!''
***e.  ko kurji ti
 
****''Take care of this person (''or'' thing)!''
***f.  mi ko do tavla
 
****''Let me talk to you about yourself!''
***g.  ko kurji mi
 
****''Take care of me!''
***h.  mi kurji ko
 
****''Let me take care of you!''
***i.  ko sutra kurji le cutci
 
****''Quickly take care of the shoe!''
 
#Greetings
 
**(No exercises)
 
#Attitudinals
 
**Give the meanings of the following attitudinals:
***a.  .iusai
 
****''Strong love''
***b.  .a'ocai
 
****''Intense hope''
***c.  .uinai
 
****''Unhappiness''
***d.  .e'oru'e
 
****''Mild request''
***e.  .oicu'i
 
****''Neither comfort nor discomfort; nothing to complain about''
***f.  .a'o
 
****''Hope''
***g.  .oi
 
****''Complaint, discomfort''
***h.  .ua.oiru'e
 
****''Discovery and mild complaint''
***i.  .uinairu'e
 
****''Mild unhappiness''
***j.  .a'onaicai
 
****''Intense despair''
***k.  .a'onai.uucai
 
****''Despair and intense pity''
**Translate the following sentences:
 
**Examples:
***''.e'o ko sutra''                  Please, be fast!
 
***''.uasai mi cutci''                Aha!  I'm a shoe!
***''.a'o do mi tavla le cutci .iu''  (I hope) you are talking to me about the shoe (I love the shoe!)
 
**Questions:
***l.  .ui do tavla mi
 
****''I'm happy that you're talking to me''
***m.  .uacai le cutci cu tavla mi
 
****''Hey! I just noticed the shoe is talking to me!''
***n.  ko .uu se tavla mi
 
****''Be talked to by me (and I'm so sorry for you about that)''
***o.  .e'o ko sutra tavla mi le cutci
 
****''Please, quickly talk to me about the shoe!''
***p.  .e'ocai ko mi .uu kurji
 
****''I beg you, take care of poor me!''
 
#Yes or no questions
 
**Please answer in Lojban:
**Examples:
 
***''xu do tavla''  -  ''mi tavla''
***''xu do kanro''  -  ''go'i''
 
***''xu do cutci''  -  ''mi na cutci''
**Questions:
 
***a.  xu do tavla mi
****''mi tavla do''
 
***b.  do le cutci xu cu kurji
****''na go'i''
 
***c.  xu le cutci cu sutra
****''le cutci na sutra''
 
***d.  xu mi sutra
****''go'i''
 
***e.  do mi tavla le sutra cutci xu
****''mi do go'i le blanu cutci''
 
***f.  xu do tavla mi la lojban. la lojban.
****''go'i''
 
***g.  xu zo'e zo'e do te tavla la lojban.
****''go'i''

Latest revision as of 08:29, 30 June 2014

Guida alla pronuncia Lojban per Italiani

*** Vocali ***

a acqua, amare

e energia

i ideologia

o osso, onore

u uno, uguale, dubbio

y femmene, campaniello, Napule, chiagne (Napoletano). Suono vocalico indistinto come al termine della parola inglese the o francese petit.

*** Dittonghi ***

ai giammai, dai

au autorizzare, aumentare

ei sei, lei

oi poi, gli eroi

ia piano, piazza, piacere

ie ieri, pietro, cieco

ii magnifico, ogni

io pioggia, piombo

iu piuttosto

ua quattro, qualità

ue questo

ui "(io) fui"

uo uomo, cuore, "può darsi"

uu suono u prolungato

*** Consonanti ***

b basso, bambino, babbo

c scimmia, lasciare, asciugamano,

d dentro, andare

f fanciulla, soffocare

g gatto, pagare

j la g dolce intervocalica in Toscano. Come il Francese bonjour o l'inglese measure

k kilometro, cavallo, chiacchierare

l luna, pallido

m mano, amore

n nonno, notizia

p pasqua, oppure,

r ridere, ringraziare

s sapienza, solitudine

t torre, studente

v verità, nevicare,

x la c dura intervocalica in Toscano. Aspirata come in "Bach" o "Loch Ness"

z azienda, rozza, zotico (z sorda, non sonora come in zaino o azoto)

'' breve aspirazione tra due vocali. La h' inglese in hotel.

mi'e .aulun.

Re "without the plosive"... I thought the intention was that if a language hasn't got a certain sound, to leave it out rather than providing one which is similar but "wrong". Italians have to distinguish between dj and j, and between dz and z; if their language misleads them to pronounce j as dj because of the examples {g}, then perhaps {g} is not a good example. mi'e filip

filip, as far as I do understand the very purpose of these charts, they are to give foreign students of Lojban (without any further knowledge of other languages than their native tongue) an idea of Lojban phonology. If this is correct, it has to be preferred to give any hint possible to reach that goal, hasn't it? --.aulun.

Page reformatted. Added some more example for the more difficult cases ('j,x,'',y) that have no correspondence to Italian sounds. Also redone z --remod

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