conversation guide:software: Difference between revisions

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== Proposed Definitions And Examples ==
== Software ==


===  Proposed Definition of ''noi'' ===
...or 'That stuff that you wish would just work'.


;'''noi''' (NOI):Incidental (non-restrictive) relative clause marker.
*Install - samjmina or {se sampla bredi gasnu}
*Program - samru'e


** The "relative" part means that it relates a clause to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide additional information about the referents of that sumti.
*User Interface // mostly stolen from the [http://groups.google.com/group/jbofanva/browse_thread/thread/12f9ef052a8e203f bofanva] mailing list
**Menu - tercu'a  


** The "clause" part means that it is followed by a full bridi (which means it sometimes must be terminated with ku'o, the NOI selma'o terminator, or vau, the general bridi terminator, particularily if one wishes to add another sumti to the outer bridi).
**Main Page - ralpapri
**Close - ga'ogau


** The "non-restrictive" part means that the information in the ''noi'' clause is not used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''noi'' is attached to refers to.  The ''noi'' bridi gives additional information about the referents of the sumti ''noi'' is attached to.
**Open - kalri
**Import - nerbei


** Inside a ''noi'' clause, ''ke'a'' indicates the precise place of the bridi that the sumti is intended to fill.
**Export - barbei
**Page - papri


** For logical scoping purposes, the scope of a ''noi'' clause is entirely outside the scope of the statement in which it is contained; its scope occurs at the point immediately after the scope in which it was contained ends.  The ''noi'' clause should be considered, for scoping purposes, as occuring in its own virtual sentence (technically, its own "statement" production in the formal grammar) after both the one in which it is contained and all further statements that are logically connected to the one in which it was contained.
**Print - pripra
**Edit - stika


** ''noi'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative clause can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a clause attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (before the terminator ''ku'') the clause applies to all the referents of the sumti, whether there is an outer quantifier or not.
**Remove - vimcu
**Save - rejygau/rejgau


** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''noi'' clause that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
**Undo - tolzu'e
**Preferences - se zmanei


** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''noi'' clause is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
**Window - pevycanko
**FAQs - cafne preti


===  Examples of ''noi'' Usage ===
**OK - je'e
**Option/Options - selcu'a


le gerku noi blanu cu barda
**Preview - pructa
**Login - plivei


''The dog, which incidentally is white, is big.''
**Logout - fe'o
**Sandbox - toirpapri


la alis noi ru'i senci cu sezysku
**Shoutbox - kixta'e
**Forum - snustu


''Alice, who was continuously sneezing, said to herself.''
**Rename - cmega'i
*Files and Data


ro bifce noi pendo mi cu ji'a xebni lo sigja
**File
**Directory


''All bees, which are friends of mine, also hate cigars.''
**Bit
**Byte


This sentence was taken from the #lojban IRC channel, and asserts that every bee (or wasp or hornet) that exists (ignoring metaphysical issues) is both a friend of the speaker and hates cigars.  This is probably not what the author intended.
**Kilobyte
 
**Megabyte
la fengu lo smacu noi fy ke'a cpacu cu penmi le zdani
 
''Fury met a mouse, F (Fury) got it (the mouse), in the house.''
 
Had to re-order the translation a bit to make the English work; in the Lojban the "met" part comes after the comma-delimited clause.
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''poi'' ===
 
;'''poi''' (NOI):Restrictive relative clause marker.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a clause to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide specifying information about the referents of that sumti.
 
** The "clause" part means that it is followed by a full bridi (which means it sometimes must be terminated with ''ku'o'', the NOI elma'o terminator, or ''vau'', the general bridi terminator, particularily if one wishes to add another sumti to the outer bridi).
 
** The "restrictive" part means that the information in the ''poi'' clause is used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''poi'' is attached to refers to. In other words, out of the referents of the sumti that ''poi'' is attached to (which, for example, in the case of ''lo dacti'' can be a great many things indeed) the sumti is actually intended by the speaker to refer only to those things for which the bridi in the ''poi'' clause is also true.
 
** Inside a ''poi'' clause, ''ke'a'' indicates the precise place of the bridi that the sumti is intended to fill.
 
** For unquantified sumti, the clause selects from all the referents of the sumti just those that satisfy it; when an inner quantifier is present it indicates how many those referents are. For quantified sumti, the quantification is over just those referents of the sumti that satisfy the clause.
 
** ''poi'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative clause can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a clause attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (before the terminator ''ku''), the inner quantifier indicates the number of referents that satisfy the clause even if there is an outer quantifier.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''poi'' clause that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''poi'' clause is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''poi'' Usage ===
 
mi djica lo skami tanxe poi cmalu
 
''I want a computer box which is small.''
 
pau re'i pat ta poi zvati le canko cu mo
 
''Question to Pat: that which at the window is what?''
 
''Pat: What is that at the window?''
 
abu tavla le mensi ro le cizra se lifri poi do ke'a puzi ca'o tcidu
 
''A (for Alice) talked to the (her) sister about all the strange experiences which you about them have just been reading.''
 
da poi gerku zo'u da vasxu
 
''There exists at least one thing which is a dog; this thing breathes.''
 
===  Proposed Definition Of ''voi'' ===
 
;'''voi''' (NOI):Descriptive (non-veridical) restrictive relative clause marker.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a clause to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide specifying information about the referents of that sumti.
 
** The "clause" part means that it is followed by a full bridi (which means it sometimes must be terminated with ku'o, the NOI
 
selma'o terminator, or vau, the general bridi terminator, particularily if one wishes to add another sumti to the outer bridi).
 
** The "restrictive" part means that the information in the ''voi'' clause is used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''voi'' is attached to refers to.  In other words, out of all the possible things the sumti that ''voi'' is attached to could refer to (which, for example, in the case of ''lo dacti'' is a great many things indeed) the sumti is actually intended by the speaker to refer only to those things that the sumti could refer to for which the bridi in the ''voi'' clause is also true.
 
** The ''non-veridical'' part means that the speaker is making no claime that the bridi in the ''voi'' clause actually matches objective reality.
 
** Inside a ''voi'' clause, ''ke'a'' indicates the precise place of the bridi that the sumti is intended to fill.
 
** For unquantified sumti, the clause selects from all the referents of the sumti just those that satisfy it; when an inner quantifier is present it indicates how many those referents are. For quantified sumti, the quantification is over just those referents of the sumti that satisfy the clause.
 
** ''voi'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative clause can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a clause attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (before the terminator ''ku''), the inner quantifier indicates the number of referents that satisfy the clause even if there is an outer quantifier.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''voi'' clause that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''voi'' clause is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''voi'' Usage ===
 
ti voi nanmu cu ninmu
 
''This which is (non-veridically) a man is a woman.''
 
The classic example of ''voi'' usage, presumably referring to a case of mistaken identity or a transvestite or transgendered individual.
 
mi xagji .iku'i .oisai ponse no da voi cidja
 
''I am hungry.  However, horrors!, posses no thing which is food.''
 
This is presumably intended to handle under-exaggeration; the speaker probably has '''something''' that could be eaten.  This is a quote from the #lojban IRC channel.
 
mrilu su'o ciki'o da voi festi mi
 
''Mail, three thousand of them which are waste products of me.''
 
This case, also from the #lojban IRC channel, is probably intended to deal with very loose usage of ''festi'', and is probably intended to mean "Three thousand pieces of spam e-mail".
 
ganse vasxu le nicte vacri voi ranti
 
''Breathing the night air, which is soft.''
 
Presumably, ''voi'' is being used to deal with the fact that ''ranti'' probably does not literally apply to air.
 
ku'i ro da voi vi selsnu zo'u .ai skicu da fo ledu'u xukau catni
 
''However, all things which are here-at subjects of conversation: it is intended that they will be described as to whether they are official.''
 
This is from the Lojban translation of the lojban.org web site, and the ''voi'' is being used to deal with the usage of ''vi'' to translate the English "here on this site", when a web site has no physical location.  The original had zu'o instead of zo'u, which I have corrected.
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''ne'' ===
 
;'''ne''' (GOI):Incidental (non-restrictive) relative phrase marker.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a phrase to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide additional information about the referents of that sumti.
 
** The "phrase" part means that it is followed by another sumti.
 
** The meaning of ''ne'' is that the attached sumti is relevant to or associated with the first sumti in some way.
 
** The "non-restrictive" part means that the information in the ''ne'' phrase is not used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''ne'' is attached to refers to.  The attached phrase gives additional information about the sumti ''no'u'' is attached to.
 
** ''ne'' is often used for the loosest form of possession, such as that between a person and the chair they happen to be sitting in at the moment, but can be used for any form of association at all.  It is essentially equivalent to ''noi srana''.
 
** Instead of attaching a sumti, ''ne'' can be used to attach a sumtcita clause, in which case the sumtcita clause is said to apply only to the sumti it is attached to.
 
** ''ne'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative phrase can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a phrase attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (beforep the terminator ''ku'') the claupse applies to all the referents of the sumti, whether there is an outer quantifier or not.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''ne'' phrase that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''ne'' phrase is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''ne'' Usage ===
 
le blabi gerku ne mi cu batci do
 
''The white dog, which incidentally is associated with me, bit you.''
 
This need not be "my" dog in the English sense, but could be the dog I'm walking for a friend, or the dog closest to me, or whatever.
 
le nuntra be la uiliam ca le nu cfari cu fadni i ku'i le nuntolclite be lai norman ne ubu
 
''The behaviour of William during the beginning is ordinary.  However the rudeness of Norman, which incidentally is associated with him (William).''
 
ti'e ko'a ne li 2.6 cu mutce sutra
 
''I hear that it, which has something to do with the number 2.6, is very fast.''
 
xu naku me le cnano pe le tai tcima ne vi do
 
''Is it not the case that those among the norm which is associated with the form of the weather, which is near you?''
 
''Don't you normally have such weather?''
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''pe'' ===
 
;'''pe''' (GOI):Restrictive phrase.  ''pe'' is one of Lojban's restrictive relative phrase markers.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a phrase to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide specifying information about the referents of that sumti.
 
** The "phrase" part means that it is followed by another sumti.
 
** The meaning of ''pe'' is that the attached sumti is relevant to or associated with the first sumti in some way.
 
** The "restrictive" part means that the information in the ''pe'' phrase is used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''pe'' is attached to refers to.  In other words, out of all the possible things the sumti that ''pe'' is attached to could refer to (which, for example, in the case of ''lo dacti'' is a great many things indeed) the sumti is actually intended by the speaker to refer only to those things that the sumti could refer to which are associated with the sumti marked by ''pe''.
 
** ''pe'' is often used for the loosest form of possession, such as that between a person and the chair they happen to be sitting in at the moment, but can be used for any form of association at all.  It is essentially equivalent to ''poi srana''.
 
** Instead of attaching a sumti, ''pe'' can be used to attach a sumtcita clause, in which case the sumtcita clause is said to apply only to the sumti it is attached to.
 
** ''pe'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative phrase can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a phrase attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (before the terminator ''ku''), the inner quantifier indicates the number of referents that satisfy the phrase even if there is an outer quantifier.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''pe'' phrase that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''pe'' phrase is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''pe'' Usage ===
 
le kabri pe le mi pendo cu cmalu
 
''My friend's cup is small.''
 
Presumably the friend does not own the cup, but is merely holding it, or something similar.
 
le mi pendo pe le kabri cu cmalu
 
''The cup's my friend is small.''
 
''My friend which is associated with the cup is small.''
 
This illustrates one of the non-English-like ways ''pe'' can operate.
 
le lisri pe mi cu clani je se badri
 
''The story associated with me is long and sad.''
 
le gerku pe le mi pendu cu prami lo cakla
 
''The dog of my fiend loves chocolate.''
 
It is likely that ''po'', which indicates stronger possession, was wanted here.
 
mi viska le cripu pe vi le rirxe
 
''I see the bridge which is near the river.''
 
===  Proposed definition for ''no'u'' ===
 
;'''no'u''' (GOI):Incidental identity.  ''no'u'' is Lojban's non-restrictive appositive phrase marker.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a phrase to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide additional information about the referents of that sumti.
 
** The "phrase" part means that it is followed by another sumti.
 
** The meaning of ''no'u'' is that the attached sumti has exactly the same refferents as the first sumti, which is what the "appositive" part means.
 
** The "non-restrictive" part means that the information in the ''no'u'' clause is not used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''no'u'' is attached to refers to.  The attached phrase gives additional information about the sumti ''no'u'' is attached to.
 
** It exactly equates two sumti referents, and is often used to mention names of things in passing.  It is essentially equivalent to ''noi du".
 
** ''no'u'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative phrase can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a phrase attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (beforep the terminator ''ku'') the claupse applies to all the referents of the sumti, whether there is an outer quantifier or not.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''no'u'' phrase that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''no'u'' phrase is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''no'u'' Usage ===
 
le nanmu no'u la djim. cu terpemci
 
''The man, who incidentially is Jim, is a poet.''
 
.au mi ka'e jarco le mi'a mlatu no'u la dinas do
 
''[[jbocre: Desire.|Desire.]] I could show you our cat, Dina.''
 
mi ba stidi so'u cnino gismu no'u zo nagra e zo narga e zo ranga e zo ragna
 
''I will suggest a few new gismu: nagra, narga, ranga, and ragna.''
 
===  Proposed definition for ''po'u'' ===
 
;'''po'u''' (GOI):Restrictive identity.  ''po'u'' is Lojban's restrictive appositive phrase marker.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a phrase to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide specifying information about the referents of that sumti.  ''po'u'' immediately follows a simple sumti; for descriptions sumti it can appear in a variety of places, the semantics of which are beyond the scope of this definition. 
 
** The "phrase" part means that it is followed by another sumti.
 
** The meaning of ''po'u'' is that the referents of the sumti that the ''po'u'' clause is attached to are limited to those that are identical to the referents of the ''po'u'' phrase, which is what the "appositive" part means.
 
** The "restrictive" part means that the information in the ''po'u'' phrase not used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''po'u'' is attached to refers to.
 
** It exactly equates two sumti referents, and is often used to mention names of things in passing.  It is essentially equivalent to ''poi du".
 
** ''po'u'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative phrase can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a phrase attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (before the terminator ''ku''), the inner quantifier indicates the number of referents that satisfy the phrase even if there is an outer quantifier.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''po'u'' phrase that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''po'u'' phrase is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''po'u'' Usage ===
 
le gerku po'u le mi pendo cu cinba mi
 
''The dog which is my friend kisses me.''
 
This is actually a somewhat strange use of ''po'u''; ''poi se pendo mi'' is much more common for this sort of thing.
 
la blabi ractu sepi'o le kinli je cmalu voksa cu bacru tcidu le cmene po'u zo alis
 
''The white rabbit in a sharp, small voice loudly read the name, "Alice".''
 
mi cusku za'u pa le jufra .i do tugni ma po'u le mi jufra
 
''I said more than one sentence.  You agree with what which is a sentence of mine?''
 
Note that the first ''le'' should really be ''lo''.  ''za'u jufra'' would be even better.
 
===  Proposed definition for ''po'' ===
 
;'''po''' (GOI):Is specific to.  ''po'' is one of Lojban's restrictive relative phrase markers.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a phrase to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide specifying information about the referents of that sumti.
 
** The "phrase" part means that it is followed by another sumti.
 
** The meaning of ''po'' is that the attached sumti is '''specifically''' relevant to or associated with the first sumti in some way.
 
** The "restrictive" part means that the information in the ''po'' phrase is used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''po'' is attached to refers to.  In other words, out of all the possible things the sumti that ''po'' is attached to could refer to (which, for example, in the case of ''lo dacti'' is a great many things indeed) the sumti is actually intended by the speaker to refer only to those things that the sumti could refer to which are associated with the sumti marked by ''po''.
 
** ''po'' is often used for the standard sense of possession, i.e. physical or legal ownership.  It is essentially equivalent to ''poi traji lo ka ce'u ckini ke'a vau fa''.
 
** ''po'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative phrase can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a phrase attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (before the terminator ''ku''), the inner quantifier indicates the number of referents that satisfy the phrase even if there is an outer quantifier.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''po'' phrase that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''po'' phrase is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''po'' Usage ===
 
le botpi po mi cu spofu
 
''My bottle is broken.''
 
mi troci le nu jimpe le krinu po le do cortu
 
''I try to understand the reason / justification associated with your pain.''
 
Probably ''rinka be'' was meant, rather than ''krinu po''.
 
xu do tcidu le samselmri po la noras
 
''Have you read Nora's e-mail?''
 
===  Proposed definition for ''po'e'' ===
 
;'''po'e''' (GOI):Which belongs to.  ''po'e'' is one of Lojban's restrictive relative phrase markers.
 
** The "relative" part means that it relates a phrase to a sumti. It attaches to a sumti to provide specifying information about the referents of that sumti.
 
** The "phrase" part means that it is followed by another sumti.
 
** The meaning of ''po'e'' is that the attached sumti is '''inalienably''' associated with the first sumti in some way.  An inalienable association is one that cannot be taken away, such as the association between you and your arm.
 
** The "restrictive" part means that the information in the ''po'e'' phrase is used to restrict the set of things that the sumti ''po'e'' is attached to refers to.  In other words, out of all the possible things the sumti that ''po'e'' is attached to could refer to (which, for example, in the case of ''lo dacti'' is a great many things indeed) the sumti is actually intended by the speaker to refer only to those things that the sumti could refer to which are associated with the sumti marked by ''po'e''.
 
** ''po'e'' is used for things like people's limbs or parental relationships or other inalienable things.  It is essentially equivalent to ''poi jinzi ke se steci srana''.
 
** ''po'e'' immediately follows a simple sumti. With description sumti, the relative phrase can also be attached inside the sumti, before or after the selbri; when attached before the selbri (right after the gadri) it is equivalent to a phrase attached after the terminated sumti (after the terminator ''ku''); when attached after the selbri (before the terminator ''ku''), the inner quantifier indicates the number of referents that satisfy the phrase even if there is an outer quantifier.
 
** For ''la'' description sumti, any ''po'e'' phrase that occurs before the terminator ''ku'' is considered part of the name.
 
** When attached to a description sumti with no explicit terminators, a ''po'e'' phrase is considered to be inside the terminator ''ku''.
 
===  Examples of ''po'e'' Usage ===
 
le birka po'e mi cu spofu
 
''My arm is broken.''
 
mi kucli le du'u ki'u makau le xriso cu krici le du'u le malcevni cu djica le pruxi po'e mi
 
''I am curious as to why Christians believe that the devil wants my soul.''
 
le galxe po'e mi cu kanro
 
''My throat is healthy.''
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''vu'o'' ===
 
;'''vu'o''' (VUhO):Long scope relative clause/phrase marker.  Normally, a relative clause or phrase sumti binds to the last sumti to its immediate left, regardless of sumti connectors.  To have a relative clause or phrase bind to every member of a connected group of sumti, place vu'o after the sumti and before the relative clause or phrase cmavo.
 
===  Examples of ''vu'o'' Usage ===
 
la frank. .e la djordj. vu'o noi nanmu cu klama le zdani
 
''Frank and George, who are both men, go to the house.''
 
la eduin joi la morkar vu'ono'u lei turni be la mersias fa'u la nortumbrias
 
''Edwin along with Morkar (?), who are the rulers of Mersia (?) and Northumbria, respectively''
 
mi na jimpe le du'u makau nilbra be le plini .e le gerku vu'o noi se tavla do
 
''I don't understand how big the planet and the dog, which you are talking about, are.''
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''zi'e'' ===
 
;'''zi'e''' (ZIhE):Relative clause/phrase joiner.  Normally, a relative clause or phrase sumti binds to the last sumti to its immediate left, which means that it is impossible to apply more than one relative marker to the same simple sumti (description sumti are a bit more complicated, and the ways in which one can attach a relative clause or phrase to one are beyond the scope of this definition).  To attach another relative marker to the same sumti, place ''zi'e'' after the end of the first relative marker's data (which normally needn't be terminated) and place the next relative marker immediately after the ''zi'e''.  Using zi'e to mix ''poi'' and ''noi'' clauses (or pe and ne, and so on) is, for very subtle reasons, not well defined.
 
===  Examples of ''zi'e'' Usage ===
 
le botpi po mi zi'e poi blanu cu spofu
 
''My blue bottle is broken.''
 
do ponse ma poi drata zi'epe ne'i le do daski
 
''You have what else that has to do with the inside of your pocket?''
 
je'u ro lo prenu poi mi xamgu djuno zi'e poi ponse le slanu kerfa zi'e poi ponse lo blabi skapi cu pilno ry. vau .u'isai
 
''Truthfully, all the people which I know well and who have dreadlocks and are white use bicycles [[jbocre: Amusement|Amusement]].''
 
The author has special insight into this sentence, which was found on the #lojban IRC channel, having wrote it.  ''ry'' refers to ''lo relxilma'e''.
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''ge'u'' ===
 
;'''ge'u''' (GEhU):End relative phrase.  ''ge'u'' is an elidable terminator that indicates the end of relative or sumtcita phrases.  It is usually elidable in simple situations.  It (or possibly another teminator, such as ''ku'') is required, however, when one wishes to apply a logical connective to a sumti that has a relative or modal phrase attached (otherwise you are simply added an additional part to the phrase).
 
===  Examples of ''ge'u'' Usage ===
 
li'o pensi le cmalu no'u la alis ge'u e ro le abu se manci se lifri
 
''... thinking about the small thing which is Alice, and all of her wondrous experiences.''
 
pilno le vlaturge'a pe la guaspis ge'u .e le lojbo gerna .ui
 
''Use the word structure of Gua\spi and the grammar of Lojban. [[jbocre: Happiness|Happiness]]''
 
Note that the original did '''not''' have the ge'u, which made it mean something like "Use the word structure of both ( Gua\spi and Lojban grammar)", which is basically nonsense.
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''ku'o'' ===
 
;'''ku'o''' (KUhO):End relative clause.  ''ku'o'' is an elidable terminator that indicates the end of NOI relative clauses.  It can always be replaced by some other combination of terminators (''ku'', ''vau'', and ''kei'' in particular are often relevant), but its use is preferred in complex clauses, where it can often replace several other terminators.
 
===  Examples of ''ku'o'' Usage ===
 
la djan. cu lafti da poi grana ku'o gi'e desygau da
 
''John lifts at least one thing which is a pole and shakes it.''
 
so'o jinru minji noi nenri le xamsi ku'o e so'o verba noi kakpa lo canre le loldi lo mudri canpa ku'o e li'o
 
''Several wet machines, which are in the sea, and several children, which dig in sand out of the floor with wooden shovels, and ...''
 
pe'i do poi merko ku'o sipna
 
''I opine that those of you who are American are sleeping.''
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''goi'' ===
 
;'''goi''' (GOI):Pro-sumti assign.  ''goi'' is used to define or assign {ko'a} and {fo'a} series pro-sumti.  The two sumti before and after ''goi'' are intended to refer to the same thing; in computer science terminology, ''goi'' unifies its arguments if either one is undefined.  If both arguments are already defined, it is assumed that a re-definition is taking place, and the right-hand argument takes on the value of the left-hand argument (essentially matching the English ", which we'll call ").  For explicit re-definition and cancellation of definition, refer to {da'o}. ''goi'' is approximately equivalent to the Latin word "sive".
 
===  Examples of ''goi'' Usage ===
 
la .alis. goi ko'a klama le zarci .i ko'a cu blanu
 
''Alice, who we'll call "she", goes to the store.  She is blue.''
 
Note that the second sentence refers to the literal color blue.
 
ma goi ko'a
 
''What is it that ko'a refers to?''
 
xy. goi le xrabo bangu
 
''X, which I am using to indicate the Arabic language''
 
===  Issues ===
 
* [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/tree/browse_frm/month/2007-07/ce9b22d578419522?rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Flojban%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2007-07%3F#doc_04422a4a473dca31 hat is the scope of goi exactly?]
 
===  Proposed Definition for ''cei'' ===
 
;'''cei''' (CEI):broda series pro-selbri assign.  ''cei'' is used to define or assign brodV series variables.  The two selbri before and after ''cei'' are intended to refer to the same thing; in computer science terminology, ''cei'' unifies its arguments if either one is undefined.  If both arguments are already defined, it is assumed that a re-definition is taking place, and the right-hand argument takes on the value of the left-hand argument (essentially matching the English ", which we'll call ").  For explicit re-definition and cancellation of assignment, refer to {da'o}. ''cei'' is approximately equivalent to the Latin word "sive".
 
===  Examples of ''cei'' Usage ===
 
broda cei slilu .i brode cei sedu'u lu le'o ro le do zbepi du selponse mi'a<br />
 
(translate please)<br />
 
<br />
 
.i donri cei broda .i xu la broda cu du la donri<br />
 
"It's a daytime, which we'll call 'broda'. Is "Broda" the same body as "Daytime"?<br />
 
===  Notes ===
 
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/407835fad414fc6a <br />
 
Previous issues. cei binds to nearest selbri and needs ke + ke'e for binding tanru.
 
==  Formal Definitions ==
 
(AKA conversion formulas)
 
|| noi | ''sumti'' noi ke'a broda | ''sumti'' to ri xi rau broda toi
 
poi + PA ''sumti'' | PA ''sumti'' poi broda | PA da poi ge me ''sumti'' gi broda
 
poi + ''sumti'' (no PA) | ''sumti'' poi broda | lo me ''sumti'' je broda
 
poi + ro da | ro da poi broda cu brode | ro da zo'u ganai da broda gi da brode
 
poi + su'o da | su'o da poi broda cu brode | su'o da zo'u ge da broda gi da brode
 
voi | voi ke'a broda |  poi skicu ke'a fo lo ka ce'u broda
 
ne | ne ''sumti'' | noi ke'a srana ''sumti''
 
pe | pe ''sumti'' | poi ke'a srana ''sumti''
 
no'u | no'u ''sumti'' | noi ke'a du ''sumti''
 
po'u | po'u ''sumti'' | poi ke'a du ''sumti''
 
po | po ''sumti'' | poi ''sumti'' cu traji lo ka ce'u ckini ke'a
 
po'e | po'e ''sumti'' | poi ke'a jinzi ke se steci srana ''sumti''
 
vu'o | ''sumti'' vu'o ''relative-clauses'' | lo me ''sumti'' me'u ku ''relative-clauses''
 
goi, ko'a unassigned | ko'a goi ''sumti'' / ''sumti'' goi ko'a | ''sumti'' noi ca'e ko'a du ke'a
 
goi, both unassigned | ko'a goi ko'e | sei ca'e zo ko'a zo ko'e co'a snidu'i se'u
 
goi, both assigned | ko'a goi ko'e | sei ca'e zo ko'e co'a sinxa ko'a se'u
 
zi'e + noi | ''sumti'' noi ''subsentence1'' zi'e noi ''subsentence2'' | ''sumti'' noi ge ''subsentence1'' gi ''subsentence2''
 
zi'e + poi | ''sumti'' poi ''subsentence1'' zi'e poi ''subsentence2'' | ''sumti'' poi ge ''subsentence1'' gi ''subsentence2''
 
zi'e + PA poi + noi | [[jbocre: PA|PA]] ''sumti'' poi ke'a broda zi'e noi ke'a brode, [[jbocre: PA|PA]] lo me ''sumti'' je broda ku to ri xi rau brode toi
 
zi'e + noi + poi | ''sumti'' noi ke'a broda zi'e poi ke'a brode | lo me ''sumti'' to ri broda toi je brode
 
zi'e + PA noi + poi | PA ''sumti'' noi ke'a broda zi'e poi ke'a brode | undefined
 
||
 
* It is possible to build conversion formulas for "PA da poi", for each PA, but many of those formula will be different from each other.  The two given here are representative, and are the two important ones.  Others should be handled on a case-by-case basis, or just considered irreducable, as necessary.
 
* Making the zi'e work requires doing the other expansions first.  The zi'e expansions are not generalized to more than two links, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out.
 
* The "ri xi rau" in "zi'e + PA poi + noi" is intended to count back to the outer "lo me".
 
* The "ri xi rau" in "noi" is intended to count back to the preceding ''sumti''.
 
* The definitions with "me" in them rely on CLL-style "me" being selected by the BPFK (in particular, over ma'oste-style "me").  Any other choice will require revisiting of those definitions.
 
* The "both unassigned" and "both assigned" "goi" forms are rather wierd and to be avoided in normal speech (although they may make more sense in programmatic or mathematical contexts).
 
==  Notes ==
 
* Many of these definitions are substantially similar.  Please bear in mind that they will normally be used in isolation.
 
* Example of the difference between noi and poi: "ro prenu noi xamgu cu klama" is a '''monumentally''' different claim from "ro prenu poi xamgu cu klama".  The former is "All people are good, and they go."  The latter is "All the good people go".  Formally, the former is "ro prenu ge xamgu gi klama", and the latter is "ro da poi prenu zo'u da ga nai brode gi brodi&amp;quot;.  With su'o, however, they are equivalent.
 
* ''voi'' is pretty amazingly useless.  This is borne out by the amount of usage it has seen: I have collected above, as far as I can tell, more than 80% of the extant usages of it.  ''ne'' is, if anything, '''worse''' (i.e. less used).  ''po'e'' is not much used either, but that's hardly a surprise.  ''vu'o'' seems to be underutilized as well, but I suspect that's more in error than anything else.  The winner of the no-usage prize, however, seems to be ''ge'u''.  This, however, seems to have been an error in many cases: {mi po do ge'u .e da} means something completely different than {mi po do .e da}.
 
* I don't know who cares that ''goi'' is Latin 'sive', but I'm sure it's not me.
 
* I have no idea why only ''pe'' and ''ne'' can be used with sumtcita clauses.
 
* While the definitions are lovely, please make a plain-English explanation of how NOI's relative position to {ku} affects the quantifier (IE that pa lo ci gerku noi zvati ku is one of [[jbocre: three dogs which attend|three dogs which attend]] and that pa lo ci gerku ku noi zvati is one dog [[jbocre: of three|of three]] which attends). This is one of those little things that newbies overlook and is rather important. - Lindar
 
==  Impact ==
 
* WRT ''goi'', the right-leaning specification in the case of both arguments being defined is wholly new.
 
* ''po'' in CLL was stated to mean "se steci srana", but no-one really understood what that meant.  I believe that the change (to traji lo ka ce'u ckini) covers the CLL meaning better and changes no usage.
 
* I am aware of no other substantial impacts of this proposal.
 
{MODULE(module=>BPFK_Poll'''Subordinators)}BPFK Poll: Subordinators{MODULE}

Revision as of 16:46, 4 November 2013

Software

...or 'That stuff that you wish would just work'.

  • Install - samjmina or {se sampla bredi gasnu}
  • Program - samru'e
  • User Interface // mostly stolen from the bofanva mailing list
    • Menu - tercu'a
    • Main Page - ralpapri
    • Close - ga'ogau
    • Open - kalri
    • Import - nerbei
    • Export - barbei
    • Page - papri
    • Print - pripra
    • Edit - stika
    • Remove - vimcu
    • Save - rejygau/rejgau
    • Undo - tolzu'e
    • Preferences - se zmanei
    • Window - pevycanko
    • FAQs - cafne preti
    • OK - je'e
    • Option/Options - selcu'a
    • Preview - pructa
    • Login - plivei
    • Logout - fe'o
    • Sandbox - toirpapri
    • Shoutbox - kixta'e
    • Forum - snustu
    • Rename - cmega'i
  • Files and Data
    • File
    • Directory
    • Bit
    • Byte
    • Kilobyte
    • Megabyte
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