conversation guide:internet: Difference between revisions

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* Outstanding issues (to be fix in the mega-vote, if not sooner).
* To meet someone in real life (as opposed to online) - [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/c canlu] [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/p penmi] or [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/x xadni] [http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/p penmi]
** la'o does not contain anything like "The delimiting word is separated from the quoted text by pauses, and must not be found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream.", and it should.
*Browser


** jbofihe , and therefore gerna, (wrongly) allows any string (even characters like ?!@#$%^&) as ZOI delimiters. We should make it clear that non-lojban characters in the delimiter are illegal.
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*** That's already very clear in the CLL and elsewhere; jbofihe implements the grammar fairly badly, and the morphology ''very'' badly indeed.  However, I changed "the following word" in zoi and la'o below to "the following Lojban word"; I expect this to be without controversy. -camgusmis
 
==  Proposed Definitions And Examples ==
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''lu'' ===
 
;'''lu''' (LU): Begin quotation. Starts a fully grammatical quotation.  Quoted text must be grammatically correct Lojban, even if it were to be presented on its own.  The terminator for "lu", which is seldom elidable, is "li'u".  See also: li'u, lo'u, le'u, zo and zoi.
 
** Keywords:  begin quote, begin quotation, quote, start quote, start quotation.
 
===  Examples of ''lu'' Usage ===
 
xu lu ko setca le stedu le xarju li'u xlali xe fanva fo le glico
 
''Is "Go stick your head in a pig" a bad translation from English?''
 
mi pu je ca na jimpe le mukti be le nu do cusku lu do kulnu xebni li'u
 
''I did not, and do not, know why you said "You are a culture hater".''
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''li'u'' ===
 
;'''li'u''' (LIhU):  End quotation.  The cmavo "li'u" is the elidable terminator that ends grammatical quotations begun by "lu".  Quoted text must be grammatically correct Lojban, even if it were to be presented on its own.  It is seldom elidable except at end of text.  See also lu, lo'u, le'u, zo and zoi.
 
** Keywords: end quote, end quotation.
 
===  Examples of ''li'u'' Usage ===
 
See li'u usage above.
 
===  Notes ===
 
LIhU is currently seldom elidable. I believe that currently it is only elidable at the end of text. It is the belief of .xorxes., me, and possibly others that it should never be elidable. - .aionys.
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''lo'u'' ===
 
;'''lo'u''' (LOhU):  Begin error quotation.  Starts a questionable or out of context quotation.  Text must be Lojban words, but needn't be grammatical.  The terminator for "lo'u" is "le'u"; it is never elidable.  All Lojban words inside a lo'u...le'u quote lose their usual grammatical function.  Sometimes, "lo'u" quoting is used when the text is grammatical, either because the user wishes just to quote the words by themselves, out of context, or so the user doesn't have to think about whether the utterance might be grammatical or not.  For grammatical purposes, "lo'u" converts all following Lojban words up to and including the nearest "le'u" to the right into a single word of the pseudo selma'o ''any-string''; this word acts as a sumti in all respects. The selma'o of "lo'u" and "le'u" are retained for "sa" matching purposes, however. In other words, "sa lo'u" destroys everything since the beginning of the last lo'u...le'u quote, replacing it with a new lo'u, and "sa le'u" destroys everything since the end of the last lo'u...le'u quote, replacing the terminating "le'u" with a new "le'u" (i.e. not changing the quote at all). lo'u...le'u quotes cannot be re-opened; to attach more information to a closed quote, use "joi" followed by another lo'u...le'u quote. To quote a lo'u...le'u quote including the le'u, use zoi.  In the case of an apparent conflict, the effects of this word (and all other words that change the grammatical effects of nearby words) should be read left to right.  See also joi, le'u, lu, li'u, sa, zo and zoi.
 
** Keywords: start error quote, start error quotation, begin error quote, begin error quotation.
 
===  Examples of ''lo'u'' Usage ===
 
mi cusku lo'u li mi le'u
 
''I said, "The number me".''
 
.oi mi pu cusku lo'u spacu le'u
 
''Oh no, I said "fet".''
 
In this case, the user apparently mis-spelled "cpacu".  The result, "spacu", is still technically valid Lojban, and could have been quoted with zo, but is not currently an actual gismu.
 
lo'u se ra'a le'u cu xamgu se pilno
 
''"pertains to" is useful.''
 
The following examples are intended to illustrate interactions of lo'u...le'u with other words of special grammatical effect, and hence may be pathological.
 
mi cusku lo'u co co co le'u si lo'u bo bo bo le'u
 
''I said "co co co", I mean, "bo bo bo".''
 
mi cusku lo'u co co co le'u .i do cusku sa lo'u bo bo bo le'u
 
''I said "co co co", you said, I mean, "bo bo bo".''
 
mu'i ma do djica lo nu casnu me'o lo'u co co co le'u bu
 
''Why would you want to talk about "co co co"-as-a-letter?''
 
zo lo'u krasi lo srera te sitna
 
''"lo'u" begins error quotations.''
 
lu lo'u co da le'u zei ritli li'u cu lujvo da poi no da djuno
 
''"co da type-of ritli" is a lujvo meaning no-one knows what.''
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''le'u'' ===
 
;'''le'u''' (LEhU):  End error quotation.  The cmavo "le'u" is the terminator for "lo'u".  It ends a quotation of questionable or out of context text.  It is never elidable.  See also lu, li'u, le'u, zo and zoi.
 
** Keywords:  end error quote, end error quotation.
 
===  Examples of ''le'u'' Usage ===
 
See lo'u usage above.
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''zo'' ===
 
;'''zo''' (ZO):  One word quotation.  Quotes the next word only.  Quotes a single Lojban word.  It does not quote entire constructs of any kind, only their first word.  For grammatical purposes, "zo" binds with the following word. The combination is considered a single word of the pseudo selma'o ''any-word'' (this word acts as a sumti in all respects) except for "sa" matching purposes, where it retains the selma'o "zo".  In the case of an apparent conflict, the effects of this word (and all other words that change the grammatical effects of nearby words) should be read left to right.  See also le'u, lo'u, lu, li'u, sa and zoi.
 
** Keywords: One word quotation, one word quote.
 
===  Examples of ''zo'' Usage ===
 
ua .i ki'u ma mi cusku zo cerni
 
''Oh, I see.  Why did I say "morning"?.''
 
mi djisku zo cikre .e ba'e nai zo ckire
 
''I meant to say "repair" and NOT "grateful".''
 
The following examples are intended to illustrate interactions of zo with other words of special grammatical effect, and hence may be pathological.
 
mi djisku zo co .e nai .y. sa zo bo .e nai zo do
 
''I meant to say "co" and not, umm, I mean "bo", and not "do".''
 
zo zo .e zo zei .e zo zoi .e zo bu .e zo lo'u .e zo di si zo si cu vacri .y. sa zo si cu valsi
 
''"zo" and "zei" and "zoi" and "bu" and "lo'u" and "di", I mean "si" are air, umm, I mean ... "si" are words.''
 
lu klama zei zo li'u lujvo da poi no da djuno
 
''"klama type-of zo" is a lujvo meaning no-one knows what.''
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''zoi'' ===
 
;'''zoi''' (ZOI):  Non-Lojban quotation.  Creates a delimited non-Lojban quotation.  The result treated as single Lojban word.  "zoi" uses the following Lojban word as a delimiting word and quotes all further text until the same word is repeated.  Both instances of the delimiter word lose their usual grammatical function, as do any Lojban words that might be inside the quote.  The delimiting word is separated from the quoted text by pauses, and must not be found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream.  For grammatical purposes, "zoi" binds with both delimiter words and all the quoted text.  The combination is considered a single word of the pseudo selma'o ''any-string'' (this word acts as a sumti in all respects) except for SA matching purposes, where it retains the selma'o ZOI.  In the case of an apparent conflict, the effects of this word (and all other words that change the grammatical effects of nearby words) should be read left to right.  See also le'u, lo'u, lu, li'u, sa and zo.
 
** Keywords:  Non-Lojban quotation, non-Lojban quote.
 
===  Examples of ''zoi'' Usage ===
 
mi ba'o viska le skina be me'e zoi gy. Vanilla Sky gy. gi'e no'e nelci sy.
 
''I've seen the movie named "Vanilla Sky" and didn't really like it.''
 
.i zo porpi ka'e mapti zoi zoi fracture zoi
 
''"To break" can correspond to (the non-Lojban word) "fracture".''
 
The following examples are intended to illustrate interactions of zoi with other words of special grammatical effect, and hence may be pathological.
 
zoi si some random words si si .y. zoi sa some other words sa cu mupli
 
''"Some random words", umm, "some other words" is an example.''
 
mi so'a roi na morji le cmene be me'o zoi zoi That letter that you use between a user id and a host name in an e-mail address zoi bu
 
''I can never remember the name of the letter @.''
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''la'o'' ===
 
;'''la'o''' (ZOI):  Non-Lojban name quotation.  Creates a delimited non-Lojban name.  The resulting quote sumti is treated as a name.  The result is treated as a single word.  The cmavo "la'o" is approximately equivalent to "lo se cmene be zoi", when the zoi clause quotes a name.  "la'o" uses the following Lojban word as a delimiting word and quotes all further text until the same word is repeated.  Both delimiter words lose their usual grammatical function, as do any Lojban words that might be inside the quote.  For grammatical purposes, "la'o" binds with both delimiter words and all the quoted text.  The combination is considered a single word of the pseudo selma'o ''any-string'' (this word acts as a sumti in all respects) except for SA matching purposes, where it retains the selma'o ZOI.  In the case of an apparent conflict, the effects of this word (and all other words that change the grammatical effects of nearby words) should be read left to right.  See also le'u, lo'u, lu, li'u, sa and zo.
 
** Keywords: the non-Lojban named.
 
===  Examples of ''la'o'' Usage ===
 
xu do nelci le cnino jvinu be la'o gy. lojban.org gy.
 
''Do you like the new look of lojban.org?''
 
coi la'o zoi jadenbane zoi
 
''Hello jadenbane.''
 
For more examples, see the examples of zoi usage above; la'o is grammatically equivalent to zoi.
 
==  Notes ==
 
For lots and lots of notes and discussion on what led to these definitions, see [[jbocre: Magic Words|Magic Words]].
 
* [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/4ff331a97064bd58 WTF zo can't quote zoi?]
 
==  Impact ==
 
* lo'u...le'u quotes, zo quotes, and zoi quotes are all single words now for purposes of si, bu and zei.  This almost certainly violates some usage, but as there was no solution to these conflicts before, anything is better.

Revision as of 16:46, 4 November 2013

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