transliterating Graeco-Latin: Difference between revisions

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coi ro do mi'e la stela selckiku mi ze'u jbopre
The following sound correspondences were used by [[User:James Cooke Brown|JCB]] in Loglan 1 (Brown, J.C. 1989. ''Loglan 1.'' 4th ed. Gainsville (FL.): [[The Loglan Institute|The Loglan Institute]].) pp. 438-439, to map Linnaean names to [[jbocre: Loglan|Loglan]]; I think they are sound for Lojban, but am interested in opinions.


Note that these rules concern Linnaean names, which include words from far and wide; they are not restricted to Graeco-Latin.


Hello!  I've been a Lojbanist for a long time but I don't seem to have a user page yet on the tiki, oops.  Well, here's one.  I started learning Lojban when I was 16 or so, so that'd be 1996, but I was a very inconsistent student at first and dropped in and out, spending years away from the community sometimes. Actually I still don't study Lojban very consistently, but after all these years I know it well enough that when I'm not studying actively I'm still chatting with people and writing things casually.
''Note that I rewrote these rules already in The Book, section 4.8. (JWC)''


I've made far more videos in Lojban than anyone else.  In fact I think I've made far more videos in Lojban than everyone else put together!  Not that they're good videos mostly, mind you, but they're something, so here you go: [[jbocre: h|http://youtube.com/selckiku]]
Aaaargh. I retract everything and anything then. The Book rules are binding, as far as I'm concerned. -- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].


I also have more than a hundred recorded phone calls at [http://cinch.fm/selckiku inch.fm].  I call there while I'm walking around and have a free moment, lately it's been almost every day.  Sometimes I sing songs or tell stories and sometimes I talk seriously about things but mostly I ramble and play with the language.  
;aa:''a''. aardvark => ''ardvark''


I did a [http://www.blogtalkradio.com/stela-selckiku adio show on blogtalkradio] for a while called {la tcati tcika} "Tea Time".  It was an all-lojban late-night call-in talk show, though many times there were no callers. A few people did call in, though, so there's some recordings in there somewhere of some of the very few spoken conversations in Lojban that occured during that era.
;ae:ai-or-ae => ''e''. aegyptopithecus => ''egiptopithekus''


The following Lojban isn't a translation of the above; it's some rambling nonsense.
;c:c before C/a/o/u => ''k''; c followed by e/i/y, or matched in the symbol of an element word, unchanged. canid => ''kanid''; but violoncello => ''violoncelo'' and californium => ''californium''


ni'o ca le ca cedra mi mutce lo ka jbocre .i mi kakne lo nu rarna tavla fi lo pluja .i mi nelci le za'i la .lojban. cu na'e fange mi .i plixau cizbau .i mi nelci lo nu ctuca .e lo nu cilre .i mi ca'o cilre .i mi ca'o ctuca .i so'i cnino cu jbocli za'a za'a pei .i cinri .ie pei .i ma'a se bangu lo bangu be lo so'i mei .i tavla fi lo vrici .i xu lo jbopre cu ro roi jbota'a .i ju'o cu'i ca jetnu .i mu'a ca le ca cedra lo jborirni cu tavla ti'e lo jbojbe .i cinri cedra .i no da birti lo du'u ma kau ba zi fasnu .i do na djuno doi tcidu .i do tcidu mu'i ma .i mi batkyciska le mi se djica .i na vajni do .i .y. mi morji .i mi finti lo selsku poi srana mi .i mi tavla do mi .ei .i .au mi tavla la .lojban. mu'i lo nu mi xadba racli cusku lu mi do mi do tavla li'u .i doi la .lojban. mi jbopre gi'e pilno do .i je mi do mi do tavla .i doi drata jbopre mi pilno le pu zi se tavla be mi .i le se go'i cu melbi mi .i cinri .i cizra .i cizbau .i mlebau .i .a'o ze'u mlebau do .i .a'o ze'u cizbau do .i .a'o mi ba zu finti lo srana se smuni le dei kibrystuzi .i ko ko kurji
;cc:cc followed by e/i/y => ''kc''; otherwise cc => ''k''. succinta => ''sukcinta'', but Echinococcus => ''ekinokokus''.


ni'o ca drata tcika .i ca drata masti .i mi ca'o ciska fi lo velsku be dei .i mi di'a ciska .i do djica lo nu mi cusku ma .i xu vajni velsku .i xu lo prenu ba jundi .i so'a jundi cu jundi lo glico po'o gi'e na'e jimpe viska lo barda jboselsku bliku pe'a .i .ai mi ciska so'i na'e vajni mu'i lo nu ro glico selbau jundi cu jinvi lo du'u mi jbocre .i je'u mi jbocre .i xu do zgana .i mi jbocre .i mi jbocre jbota'a do .i mutce certu ma'i tu'a lo ca cedra .i ba'a nai bu'o mi tavla fi mi .i mi budjo .i mi ca remna .i mi ta'e dasni lo taxfu .i mi citka lo rectu .i je ku'i lo nu go'i cu na'e cafne .i mi zmadu nelci lo nu stagi citka .i mi mencre gi'e nelci lo nu pensi .i mi mutce nelci lo nu mi cadzu .o'u .i lo nu jmive cu cinri mi .i mi lifri so'i cinri .i mi mutce nelci lo'e prenu .i mi xendo .i mi xendo jikca .i mi troci lo nu jimpe fi lo se jikca be mi .i .au xendo do doi jbope'o .i mi ko kurji
* How about cc followed by e/i/y => ''tc''? ''--mi'e [[User:tsali|tsali]]''
 
;CC:Any double instance of a C not c is replaced by a single instance of that C. Bettongia => ''betongia''
 
;ch:''k''. Escherichia => ''eskerikia''
 
* Here, I think there is a case for Lojban 'x' instead.
* If this is German, which is what it looks like, it should be, it should be ecerixia. Similarly Eschscholtzia -=> ecoltsia (California poppy; the name is �schholz transliterated into Russian and back). -- phma
 
*In the interest of common sense, I'm prepared to go along with this: if the name is not Latin, native pronunciation should be emulated --- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
 
;ee:''i''. sakeen => ''sakin''
 
;eigh:''ei''. leightoni => ''leitoni''
 
;ew:''u''. Andrewsarchus => ''andrusarkus''
 
;h:h in VhC => VCh to make it pronounceable. ahli => ''alhi''
 
*In Lojban, I'd just drop it.
 
;ie:''i''; non final ''ie'' unchanged. calorie => ''calori''
 
*Error for ''kalori'', of course
 
;igh:''ai''. lightfooti => ''laitfuti''
 
;ii:''i'';  non final ''ie'' unchanged. livingstonii => ''livinstoni''
 
;lh:lh- => ''elh''; non-initial lhC => lC; non-initial lhV unchanged. lhoesti => ''elhoesti''
 
*I'd just drop the h in Lojban.
 
;ng:ngC => nC; ngV unchanged. livingstonii => ''livinstoni'', but Bettongia => ''betongia''. [[jbocre: Loglan-specific word breaking apart rules omitted.|Loglan-specific word breaking apart rules omitted.]]
 
;oo:''u''; except in 'zoo-' and other disyllables in which oo remains unchanged. lightfooti => ''laitfuti'', but Zoothera => ''zoothera''
 
*The diphthongal oo is of course Greek, not Latin (omega + omicron)
 
;ou:''u'' when within a natural form: youngi => ''iungi''; when split between two forms, unchanged: thiourea = thio + urea => ''tiourea''
 
;ow:''ao'': owstoni => aostoni
 
* In Lojban, this becomes ''au''.
 
;ph:''f''; ph- => ''eph'' in very short words; non-initial ph unchanged when it will give an otherwise breaking word. phenyl => ''fenil'', but phyla => ''ephila''; and ophiocomina => ''ophiokomina''
 
* None of this need detain us; blanket ph => ''f'' is fine.
 
;pt:''ept''; non initial pt remains unchanged. Pterocera => epterocera.
 
* I see no reason for this in Lojban.
 
;pn:''n''; non-initial pn remains unchanged. pneumonia => ''neumonia''.
 
* I see no reason for this either.
 
;q:''k''. antiquitas => ''antikuitas''.
 
;qu:in Spanish source words quV => kV; but in a Linnaean, quV => kuV. braquiopodo => ''brakiopodo''; but Madoqua => ''madokua''
 
* Spanish was JCB's preferred source language.
 
;rh:''r''; rhC => rC; non-initial rhV unchanged. rhodopsin => ''rodopsin''
 
;sc:''sk''. sclerosis => ''sklerosis''.
 
;th:when not followed by a stressed V, th => ''t''; when followed by V', h is retained. Also, if the th-containing word is related to one in which h preceded V', keep the h. Thus ethylene ''ethileni'' [[jbocre: et-hee-LEH-nee|et-hee-LEH-nee]] is related to ethyl ''ethili'' [[jbocre: et-HEE-lee|et-HEE-lee]] and so keeps its h.
 
*Lojban can just reduce it to ''t'' in all cases.
 
;y:''i''. Amphyosemian => ''amfiosemian''
 
;yn:''un'' whenever the n is the last C in the word. butenyne => ''butenune'', but dynamo => ''dinamo''
 
*I have no idea where this is coming from.
 
;x:x- => ''z'' unless matched in the symbol of an element word, when unchanged; when non-initial, => ''ks''. xenyl => ''zenil'', but Atilax => ''atilaks''; xenon unchanged.
 
;w:''u'' unless matched in the symbol of an element word,  e.g., ''lawrencium''
 
*Untenable in Lojban
 
;j:Not rewritten; it is retained and pronounced as Loglan [[jbocre: zh|zh]].

Revision as of 17:18, 4 November 2013

The following sound correspondences were used by JCB in Loglan 1 (Brown, J.C. 1989. Loglan 1. 4th ed. Gainsville (FL.): The Loglan Institute.) pp. 438-439, to map Linnaean names to Loglan; I think they are sound for Lojban, but am interested in opinions.

Note that these rules concern Linnaean names, which include words from far and wide; they are not restricted to Graeco-Latin.

Note that I rewrote these rules already in The Book, section 4.8. (JWC)

Aaaargh. I retract everything and anything then. The Book rules are binding, as far as I'm concerned. -- mi'e nitcion.

aa
a. aardvark => ardvark
ae
ai-or-ae => e. aegyptopithecus => egiptopithekus
c
c before C/a/o/u => k; c followed by e/i/y, or matched in the symbol of an element word, unchanged. canid => kanid; but violoncello => violoncelo and californium => californium
cc
cc followed by e/i/y => kc; otherwise cc => k. succinta => sukcinta, but Echinococcus => ekinokokus.
  • How about cc followed by e/i/y => tc? --mi'e tsali
CC
Any double instance of a C not c is replaced by a single instance of that C. Bettongia => betongia
ch
k. Escherichia => eskerikia
  • Here, I think there is a case for Lojban 'x' instead.
  • If this is German, which is what it looks like, it should be, it should be ecerixia. Similarly Eschscholtzia -=> ecoltsia (California poppy; the name is �schholz transliterated into Russian and back). -- phma
  • In the interest of common sense, I'm prepared to go along with this: if the name is not Latin, native pronunciation should be emulated --- mi'e nitcion.
ee
i. sakeen => sakin
eigh
ei. leightoni => leitoni
ew
u. Andrewsarchus => andrusarkus
h
h in VhC => VCh to make it pronounceable. ahli => alhi
  • In Lojban, I'd just drop it.
ie
i; non final ie unchanged. calorie => calori
  • Error for kalori, of course
igh
ai. lightfooti => laitfuti
ii
i; non final ie unchanged. livingstonii => livinstoni
lh
lh- => elh; non-initial lhC => lC; non-initial lhV unchanged. lhoesti => elhoesti
  • I'd just drop the h in Lojban.
ng
ngC => nC; ngV unchanged. livingstonii => livinstoni, but Bettongia => betongia. Loglan-specific word breaking apart rules omitted.
oo
u; except in 'zoo-' and other disyllables in which oo remains unchanged. lightfooti => laitfuti, but Zoothera => zoothera
  • The diphthongal oo is of course Greek, not Latin (omega + omicron)
ou
u when within a natural form: youngi => iungi; when split between two forms, unchanged: thiourea = thio + urea => tiourea
ow
ao: owstoni => aostoni
  • In Lojban, this becomes au.
ph
f; ph- => eph in very short words; non-initial ph unchanged when it will give an otherwise breaking word. phenyl => fenil, but phyla => ephila; and ophiocomina => ophiokomina
  • None of this need detain us; blanket ph => f is fine.
pt
ept; non initial pt remains unchanged. Pterocera => epterocera.
  • I see no reason for this in Lojban.
pn
n; non-initial pn remains unchanged. pneumonia => neumonia.
  • I see no reason for this either.
q
k. antiquitas => antikuitas.
qu
in Spanish source words quV => kV; but in a Linnaean, quV => kuV. braquiopodo => brakiopodo; but Madoqua => madokua
  • Spanish was JCB's preferred source language.
rh
r; rhC => rC; non-initial rhV unchanged. rhodopsin => rodopsin
sc
sk. sclerosis => sklerosis.
th
when not followed by a stressed V, th => t; when followed by V', h is retained. Also, if the th-containing word is related to one in which h preceded V', keep the h. Thus ethylene ethileni et-hee-LEH-nee is related to ethyl ethili et-HEE-lee and so keeps its h.
  • Lojban can just reduce it to t in all cases.
y
i. Amphyosemian => amfiosemian
yn
un whenever the n is the last C in the word. butenyne => butenune, but dynamo => dinamo
  • I have no idea where this is coming from.
x
x- => z unless matched in the symbol of an element word, when unchanged; when non-initial, => ks. xenyl => zenil, but Atilax => atilaks; xenon unchanged.
w
u unless matched in the symbol of an element word, e.g., lawrencium
  • Untenable in Lojban
j
Not rewritten; it is retained and pronounced as Loglan zh.
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