https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&feed=atom&action=historytopology - Revision history2024-03-29T01:10:28ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&diff=100436&oldid=prevConversion script: Conversion script moved page Topology to topology: Converting page titles to lowercase2014-06-30T08:36:40Z<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/Topology" class="mw-redirect" title="Topology">Topology</a> to <a href="/papri/topology" title="topology">topology</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
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</table>Conversion scripthttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&diff=90901&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:52:12Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[fractal|fractal]]:Pierre Abbat suggests the word frinyselcimde, which is a reference to the fact that some (most) fractals have a fractional Hausdorff dimension in excess of their topological dimension. (For most objects, the Hausdorff dimension is identical to topological dimension) [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] suggests paursmitai and ci'urtolcne as other possibilities.See the short thread on the Lojban list where this originally came up: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7845</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[fractal|fractal]]:Pierre Abbat suggests the word frinyselcimde, which is a reference to the fact that some (most) fractals have a fractional Hausdorff dimension in excess of their topological dimension. (For most objects, the Hausdorff dimension is identical to topological dimension) [[Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] suggests paursmitai and ci'urtolcne as other possibilities.See the short thread on the Lojban list where this originally came up: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7845</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**] [[cein|cein]] suggests rapli fancu.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**] [[cein|cein]] suggests rapli fancu.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&diff=89220&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: Topology to Topology without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: T" to "T"2014-03-23T14:35:27Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_Topology&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: Topology (page does not exist)">jbocre: Topology</a> to <a href="/papri/Topology" class="mw-redirect" title="Topology">Topology</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: T" to "T"</p>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&diff=88082&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"2014-03-23T12:13:49Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[fractal|fractal]]:Pierre Abbat suggests the word frinyselcimde, which is a reference to the fact that some (most) fractals have a fractional Hausdorff dimension in excess of their topological dimension. (For most objects, the Hausdorff dimension is identical to topological dimension) [[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] suggests paursmitai and ci'urtolcne as other possibilities.See the short thread on the Lojban list where this originally came up: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7845</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[fractal|fractal]]:Pierre Abbat suggests the word frinyselcimde, which is a reference to the fact that some (most) fractals have a fractional Hausdorff dimension in excess of their topological dimension. (For most objects, the Hausdorff dimension is identical to topological dimension) [[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] suggests paursmitai and ci'urtolcne as other possibilities.See the short thread on the Lojban list where this originally came up: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7845</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**] [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>cein|cein]] suggests rapli fancu.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**] [[cein|cein]] suggests rapli fancu.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I think that that would serve as a lay explanation of fractal, but is a far cry from approximating the mathimatically rigid definition of fractal. In particular, 'fractal'ness applies to objects, not functions, as functions cannot have topological dimension. The fact that you can make fractals by the repetition of some functions is more of a defining property of the function in question, rather than of fractals. -jay</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I think that that would serve as a lay explanation of fractal, but is a far cry from approximating the mathimatically rigid definition of fractal. In particular, 'fractal'ness applies to objects, not functions, as functions cannot have topological dimension. The fact that you can make fractals by the repetition of some functions is more of a defining property of the function in question, rather than of fractals. -jay</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&diff=87901&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: f" to "f"2014-03-23T12:08:01Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: f" to "f"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>fractal|fractal]]:Pierre Abbat suggests the word frinyselcimde, which is a reference to the fact that some (most) fractals have a fractional Hausdorff dimension in excess of their topological dimension. (For most objects, the Hausdorff dimension is identical to topological dimension) [[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] suggests paursmitai and ci'urtolcne as other possibilities.See the short thread on the Lojban list where this originally came up: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7845</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[fractal|fractal]]:Pierre Abbat suggests the word frinyselcimde, which is a reference to the fact that some (most) fractals have a fractional Hausdorff dimension in excess of their topological dimension. (For most objects, the Hausdorff dimension is identical to topological dimension) [[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] suggests paursmitai and ci'urtolcne as other possibilities.See the short thread on the Lojban list where this originally came up: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7845</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**] [[jbocre: cein|cein]] suggests rapli fancu.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**] [[jbocre: cein|cein]] suggests rapli fancu.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&diff=76284&oldid=prevGleki at 17:16, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:16:30Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:16, 4 November 2013</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I believe </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">current prescription </del>is that <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">scope follows left-to-right, except for {na} </del>(<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">or NA?</del>), <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">which has maximally wide scope over </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">bridi</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[jbocre: fractal|fractal]]:Pierre Abbat suggests </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">word frinyselcimde, which </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a reference to the fact </ins>that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">some </ins>(<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">most</ins>) <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fractals have a fractional Hausdorff dimension in excess of their topological dimension. (For most objects</ins>, the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Hausdorff dimension is identical to topological dimension) [[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] suggests paursmitai and ci'urtolcne as other possibilities.See the short thread on the Lojban list where this originally came up: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7845</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**] [[jbocre: cein|cein]] suggests rapli fancu</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This exception </del>is a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pointless complication that leads </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">confusion. It should be done away with</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(</del>The <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">only defence of it has come from Nora (on jboske &amp; phpbb), hingeing on </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">interpretation </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">nago'i. This </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">addressed on phpbb &amp; will be recapped on </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">wiki </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">due course when we get round to writing up something on the interpretation </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">bridi anaphora</del>.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*** I think that that would serve as a lay explanation of fractal, but </ins>is a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">far cry from approximating the mathimatically rigid definition of fractal. In particular, 'fractal'ness applies </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">objects, not functions, as functions cannot have topological dimension</ins>. The <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fact that you can make fractals by </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">repetition </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">some functions </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">more of a defining property of </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">function </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">question, rather than </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fractals</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-jay</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** ok, ''rapli fancu cartu'' then :</ins>) <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{cein}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The scope rules, then, are as follows:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** A function can exhibit </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">self-similarity and nondifferentiability required. Also</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Hausdorff dimension is </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">strange concept and </ins>has <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">little </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">do </ins>with the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">idea </ins>of an <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">axis</ins>, or <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">even an independent variable in </ins>an <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">abstract state space</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">so </ins>I <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">am </ins>not sure <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cimde </ins>is the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">right gismu</ins>. --<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">xod</ins>''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">outer has scope over inner</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">for two elements at </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">same level</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">either (</del>a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">) the former </del>has <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">scope over the latter, or (b) they have 'coordinate' scope (defined on [[jbocre: Discussion: Three dogs attacked four men]]). Disambiguation between (a) and (b) is done either by glorking or by BAhE-subord/BAhE-coord.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-------------</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">We also need </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">consider the scope of quantifiers in tagged terms </del>with <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">respect to the scope of the tag. There seem to be two options:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># Since the term appears to </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">right </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the tag, the tag has scope over the quantifier.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># Since the tag is essentially </del>an <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">extension of the selbri, the term's quantifier has scope over the tag (as it does over the selbri too).</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]: Are you talking about {PA1 ROI PA2 broda}? </del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]: Yes, but it applies to other tags as well. Does {di'i ze broda} mean that the event occurs regularly within each of the seven broda</del>, or <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">that the seven broda are regularly distributed? I think the latter has to be {di'i lo ze broda}, and that {di'i ze broda} gives the former, i.e. {di'i} is within the scope of {ze}, just like the selbri of the bridi this term belongs to.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]: OK. So you prefer Option (2), &amp; I agree (cf. {claxu} = {na ponse} with {na} with narrowest scope). But how does one express the reading where PA1 has scope over PA2? Whereas Option (1) offers </del>an <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">obvious way to express both readings</del>, I<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'m </del>not sure <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">how Opt 2 would express both.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]: I'd say either {PA1roi lo PA2 broda}, in which PA2 becomes part of the description of the single interval in question, or {PA1roiku ze'a PA2 broda}, i.e. split it into two terms, where PA2 intervals </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">under </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">scope of PA1 times</del>.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]: Okay. Then I can't see any reason for Opt 2 not to win.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pc:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">It is not clear where comments come in the general scheme of things </del>-- <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">after additions (but when) and before discussion. In any case (since comments seem presently to be reorded in a black hole), the whole notion of scope needs to be looked at again, probably starting with the logical forms and working backward, since the other approach has led to the present mess. Ideally, the whole preselbri pack -- and the similar BAI phrases -- should go to the front in order. But that wreaks havoc with quantifiers and can</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t generally be cured with something like deMorgan, short of making the most common forms {ku}d to death. If there is a solution that also solves the independent quantifier problem, so much the better (though I don</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t see the connection).</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-65729:rev-76284 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=topology&diff=65729&oldid=prevGleki at 17:12, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:12:57Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
I believe the current prescription is that scope follows left-to-right, except for {na} (or NA?), which has maximally wide scope over the bridi.<br />
<br />
This exception is a pointless complication that leads to confusion. It should be done away with. (The only defence of it has come from Nora (on jboske &amp; phpbb), hingeing on the interpretation of nago'i. This is addressed on phpbb &amp; will be recapped on the wiki in due course when we get round to writing up something on the interpretation of bridi anaphora.)<br />
<br />
The scope rules, then, are as follows:<br />
<br />
* outer has scope over inner<br />
* for two elements at the same level, either (a) the former has scope over the latter, or (b) they have 'coordinate' scope (defined on [[jbocre: Discussion: Three dogs attacked four men]]). Disambiguation between (a) and (b) is done either by glorking or by BAhE-subord/BAhE-coord.<br />
<br />
-------------<br />
<br />
[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:<br />
<br />
We also need to consider the scope of quantifiers in tagged terms with respect to the scope of the tag. There seem to be two options:<br />
<br />
# Since the term appears to the right of the tag, the tag has scope over the quantifier.<br />
<br />
# Since the tag is essentially an extension of the selbri, the term's quantifier has scope over the tag (as it does over the selbri too).<br />
<br />
[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]: Are you talking about {PA1 ROI PA2 broda}? <br />
<br />
[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]: Yes, but it applies to other tags as well. Does {di'i ze broda} mean that the event occurs regularly within each of the seven broda, or that the seven broda are regularly distributed? I think the latter has to be {di'i lo ze broda}, and that {di'i ze broda} gives the former, i.e. {di'i} is within the scope of {ze}, just like the selbri of the bridi this term belongs to.<br />
<br />
[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]: OK. So you prefer Option (2), &amp; I agree (cf. {claxu} = {na ponse} with {na} with narrowest scope). But how does one express the reading where PA1 has scope over PA2? Whereas Option (1) offers an obvious way to express both readings, I'm not sure how Opt 2 would express both.<br />
<br />
[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]: I'd say either {PA1roi lo PA2 broda}, in which PA2 becomes part of the description of the single interval in question, or {PA1roiku ze'a PA2 broda}, i.e. split it into two terms, where PA2 intervals is under the scope of PA1 times.<br />
<br />
[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]: Okay. Then I can't see any reason for Opt 2 not to win.<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
pc:<br />
<br />
It is not clear where comments come in the general scheme of things -- after additions (but when) and before discussion. In any case (since comments seem presently to be reorded in a black hole), the whole notion of scope needs to be looked at again, probably starting with the logical forms and working backward, since the other approach has led to the present mess. Ideally, the whole preselbri pack -- and the similar BAI phrases -- should go to the front in order. But that wreaks havoc with quantifiers and can't generally be cured with something like deMorgan, short of making the most common forms {ku}d to death. If there is a solution that also solves the independent quantifier problem, so much the better (though I don't see the connection).</div>Gleki