Difference between revisions of "tanru versus lujvo rant"

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Why do people use some ''tanru'' as if they were ''lujvo''? ''tanru'' are vague, ''lujvo'' are specific.
  
[http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=Lojban%2C+Math%2C+mekso%2C+and+bridi+cmaci&no_bl=y]
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*Because, like it or not, some tanru have gained their own meanings. Also, many consider [[long tanru|long tanru]] significantly more [[lobykai|lobykai]] than lujvo.
  
Robin's Palm Writings: Category: misc
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''[[sumti tcita|sumti tcita]]'' could mean any kind of ''tcita'' of a ''[[sumti|sumti]]''--for example, the ''gadri'' can be described as a ''sumti tcita''. If you mean specifically the things that correspond to English prepositions, and you want to be unambiguous, you should say ''sumtcita''.
  
Navigation: [[Robin's Palm Writings: misc|misc Index]] [[Robin's Palm Writings|Robin's Palm Writings Top-Level Index]] 
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* Do you really want everyone to have to memorize ''every single rafsi'' (.uecai.ienai.ianai.a'onaisai)?!?!
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** Of course I do--they're part of the language. I'm doing it myself right now. ''mi'e [[jezrax|jezrax]]''
  
-GOAL: show examples in similar style for logic and other notations
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**You don't need to memorize every single rafsi for production (for comprehension, you have to learn whatever it is that other people use).  You can always use the long rafsi when you aren't sure about the short ones.  sumtytcita is a lujvo and is considered the same word as sumtcita.  It does not have the full range of possible meanings of sumti tcita --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]
  
-replace mekso with bridi, but need some things
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Not that vagueness is always bad, but part of the Lojban idea is to support precision. Take advantage of precision when you should.
  
-need a NU for math
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''mi'e [[jezrax|jezrax]]''
  
-use ca'e? for output, as opposed to symbols?: li pa su'i pa du li re =� li? ni'ai sumji li pa li re du li re == li? sumji be li pa bei li pa du li re
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''Yes, you should learn all the rafsi. They are part of the language! If you want to learn "all" of Lojban, you'll learn all the rafsi. If you don't want to, then don't. I find the attitude that learning all rafsi is unfair, quite ridiculous. And you would never consider making such a complaint about German, would you? And yes, jezrax, "sumtcita" is certainly preferable to sumti tcita. --xod''
  
- ni + ce'u works, although not with li, but that's probably OK -- kpried doesn't like ni; ni'ai for now
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ku'i lu sumtcita li'u na ka cusku zmadu le ka smuni .i lu sumtcita li'u simlu le ka mintu smuni le na morji be le rafsi.
  
- le/lo + se to output place also
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''je'enai .i mi xenru .i mi'e xod''
 
 
- lo / le distimction might have interesting side effects?
 
 
 
- so: li pa su'i pa du li re == le ni ce'u sumji li pa li re du li re == le sumji be li pa bei li pa du li re
 
 
 
- need something else for theorem: su'u seems about right
 
 
 
- need something else for symbols. Perhaps steal me'o?  Also: le sinxa be lo su'u sumji li pa li pa.  Or maybe just use la'e lu...li'u?
 
 
 
-la'a expand li to include selbri
 
 
 
- would probably need a terminator
 
 
 
-not sure it buys us anything exvcept syllables
 
 
 
- how deal with leading args? "li re sumji li pa li pa"?  "li li re sumji"?
 
 
 
-nesting, either with be or ni'ai: li pa su'i vei pa su'i pa du li ci = li ni'ai li pa ziljmina li ni'ai li pa ziljmina li pa kei ca'e du li ci = li te ziljmina be li pa bei li te ziljmina be li pa bei li pa du li ci
 
 
 
-gets a bit hairy; perhaps better to make li'ai = li ni'ai and ma'e = la'e ni'ai or something
 
 
 
-save us nothing over le ni
 
 
 
-sumji: le ni sumji li pa le ni sumji li pa li pa -- le sumji be li pa bei le sumji be li pa bei li pa
 
 
 
-would want new gismu, la'a also try to grab some single syllable cmavo
 
 
 
-vei = li'ai (= le ni), ve'o = vei gi'ai
 
 
 
-MOI for function names; fy moi'oi
 
 
 
-what else turns things into selbri?
 
 
 
-me - will it work here? - should
 
 
 
Philosophy
 
 
 
-disads: extra syllables.  1? + 1 for each bare number + 2? for each nesting (RPN or not)
 
 
 
-adv: less things to memorize; ordering of bridi well understood
 
 
 
-mekso fails at goal #1: if you read off a mathematical expression into mekso, you will *not* get the same calculation without a *lot* of effort
 
 
 
-RPN is lost here (but see the consumption markers in the RPN notes), because RPN requires a fixed number of arguments, with the number known in advance, but the Lojban RPN implementation has always been a hack, because of the "exactly two arguments" thing.
 

Latest revision as of 14:58, 23 March 2014

Why do people use some tanru as if they were lujvo? tanru are vague, lujvo are specific.

  • Because, like it or not, some tanru have gained their own meanings. Also, many consider long tanru significantly more lobykai than lujvo.

sumti tcita could mean any kind of tcita of a sumti--for example, the gadri can be described as a sumti tcita. If you mean specifically the things that correspond to English prepositions, and you want to be unambiguous, you should say sumtcita.

  • Do you really want everyone to have to memorize every single rafsi (.uecai.ienai.ianai.a'onaisai)?!?!
    • Of course I do--they're part of the language. I'm doing it myself right now. mi'e jezrax
    • You don't need to memorize every single rafsi for production (for comprehension, you have to learn whatever it is that other people use). You can always use the long rafsi when you aren't sure about the short ones. sumtytcita is a lujvo and is considered the same word as sumtcita. It does not have the full range of possible meanings of sumti tcita --Bob LeChevalier

Not that vagueness is always bad, but part of the Lojban idea is to support precision. Take advantage of precision when you should.

mi'e jezrax

Yes, you should learn all the rafsi. They are part of the language! If you want to learn "all" of Lojban, you'll learn all the rafsi. If you don't want to, then don't. I find the attitude that learning all rafsi is unfair, quite ridiculous. And you would never consider making such a complaint about German, would you? And yes, jezrax, "sumtcita" is certainly preferable to sumti tcita. --xod

ku'i lu sumtcita li'u na ka cusku zmadu le ka smuni .i lu sumtcita li'u simlu le ka mintu smuni le na morji be le rafsi.

je'enai .i mi xenru .i mi'e xod