View source for scope of tenses and NA

*[[Adam|Adam]]:
**[[John Cowan|John Cowan]] has made<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/16095</ref> clear the book's official interpretation of NA and tenses as follows:
**# NA tagging the selbri moves to the left end of the prenex.
**# Tenses have scope in the order that they occur in the bridi, whether they are free-floating or tag the selbri, and always to the right of any '''na''' which directly tags the selbri.
**Thus, '''na roroi''' is equivalent to '''roroi na''' and means ''not always'', etc. This goes against the long-established tradition of those who tend to debate such things, as well as the common-sense notion that '''roroi na''' means ''always not'', or ''never''. The scope of '''NA''' was hard enough to use correctly as it was, now it's even more broken. Therefore I think it is inevitable at this point that the complicated rules given by the book will be ignored, and both tenses and and NA will be given scope in the order in which they occur in the bridi, whether they are free-floating or not, and the sooner the better.
**[[pc]] and [[User:xorxes|xorxes]] seem to agree without too much discussion<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/15193</ref>.
***[[.djorden.|.djorden.]]:
****This example hardly justifies calling it "long-estabilished" tradition (It's from two months ago!).
*****No, it's is merely an example. I don't believe that the rule that tenses and NA have scope in the order they occur has ever been disputed, before the above message from Cowan, and it's been used numerous times.
*****xorxes: Where would you put the '''ta'e''' relative to '''da poi nu'''/'''lo nu'''? (In the sentence '''da poi nu mi citka lo cakla zo'u mi ta'e nelci da''')
*****pc: When prefixing is implicit, tenses have to be the outermost item except for negation, thus the quantifier must be inside them.
*****xorxes: The way I understand it: to make a fully prenexed expression, you start with already explicit prenex terms, then selbri tcita, then non-prenexed terms.
*****pc: Yes, but '''na''' and tense if they occur <u>are</u> already prenex and at the far left end.

*[[.djorden.|.djorden.]]:
**It should be noted, that in Lojban (as defined by [[CLL]]), '''ka'e na''' means the exact same thing as '''na ka'e'''. The '''na''' is converted to [[naku|naku]] and interpreted before anything else (by moving it to the left of the prenex), according to chapter 16.  Additionally, '''ka'enai''' is bad grammar.  In Lojban, '''na ka'e na broda''' is exactly the same as '''naku naku zo'u ka'e broda''' which is the same as '''ka'e broda'''.  I imagine [[User:xorxes|xorxes]] was already aware of this, but it is misleading to claim the above as fact when it is contrary to the official language, so I feel obligated to comment. A possible way I can think of to actually say that the negative is possible is '''ka'e na'e broda'''.
** [[User:xorxes|xorxes]] was not aware of that at the time I wrote it. In fact, the rule that makes '''na ka'e''' and '''ka'e na''' mean the same while '''naku ka'eku''' and '''ka'eku naku''' are clearly different is so crazy that I still can't believe it can be defended. But to clear up any ambiguity '''bi'ai''' should be defined as '''bi'aiku''' = '''naku ka'eku naku'''. In the negation chapter, [[CLL]] leaves open a little window for sanity:
*** You can elide that '''ku''', by the way: '''ka'e naku''' is the same as '''ka'eku naku'''. The rule which allows this is <code>term -> (tag | FA #) (sumti | /KU#/)</code>.
{{mu|8.5)  la djan. <nowiki>[cu]</nowiki> na ba klama la paris. .e la rom.|It is false that John will go to Paris and Rome.|John <nowiki>[false]</nowiki> later-will-go-to <nowiki>[both]</nowiki> Paris and Rome.}}
{{mu|8.7)  la djan. <nowiki>[cu]</nowiki> ba na klama la paris. .e la rom.||John later-will <nowiki>[false]</nowiki> go-to <nowiki>[both]</nowiki> Paris and Rome.}}
***We stated in Section 3 that sentences like Example 8.5 and Example 8.7 appear to be semantically identical, but that subtle semantic distinctions may eventually be found.
****[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
*****Unfortunately, no example with clearly conflicting scope is given, but at least the possibility that '''na <nowiki>[tag]</nowiki>''' and '''<nowiki>[tag]</nowiki> na''' are different is not excluded.
******[[.djorden.|.djorden.]]:
*******The possibility of semantic difference is allowed, but it is clearly stated that they both mean ''It is false that ...''. The semantic differences which I imagine were in mind are things such as which part is focused on; for example the '''ba''' being more important than the '''na''' (stressing that '''la djan. pu''' isn't necessarily false) could be indicated by putting the '''ba''' before the '''na'''.
********[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
*********There is no clearly stated ''It is false that...'' gloss for 8.7! The subtle difference I imagine was in mind was between ''It is false that...will...'' and ''It will be false that...is...''. There is no apparent difference between the two, but the text allows that one may eventually be found. If the <nowiki>[tag]</nowiki> used had been something less transparent to scope, the example would have been more informative.
*pc:
**Here with the problems.  For most normal uses, the whole pre-selbri pack (tense in the broad sense, modals, negation) need to be at the far left and in order.  But it is more than occasionally needed that quantifiers in particular get outside some or all of those items.  We cannot do for tense as we do for negation: deMorgan the quantifier (or something therelike).  How then to manage this.  The current system allows at most one solution ("at most" because I am not sure even this will actually work) of '''ku'''ing the items at the appropriate places around the problematic quantifiers.  It is unclear whether '''ku'''ing one would restrict all the following ones or whether they would hop over it to the far left again, thus destroying what little is left of a connection between visible order and logical.  On the other hand, just about any other convention - that everything goes far left in order, for example - will make the usual situation the most complex one.  
**I am inclined to think the whole notion of scope and order needs a new look, rather than a variety of piecemeal solutions for individual cases. I would suggest starting with the underlying logical forms and see how to insert them into the surfaces structure. This may come up with principles that will be as bad as the present, but at least modifications would be motivated and clear, unlike the present situation.
=References=