Difference between revisions of "rant: Against Experimental Gismu"

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lu le cukta li'u tcita ledi'e xe fanva be le lisri pefi'e la xypyp. lyfkreft. zi'epede'i li ji'ipasocivo .itu'efu'eju'ocu'i
+
Thank you for the no-confidence vote in lujvo, and I look forward to you running out of gismu. :-( Meanwhile:
  
ni'oni'o mojykalsa .i'unaisai bu'ocu'i .i norju'o ledu'u le cfari mokca pu fasnu ca ba'e makau .iki'ubo so'iroixipa se'o banli .ii purci mi .ije so'iroixireku'i se'o le cabna cu mokca co selsru le grusi je tarmycau cimni .iji'a ca'o benji ledei notci fu le nalselju'o .iju'a mi cusku .iku'i ruble jijnu ledu'u le xe benji bele selsku be mi be'o bei le stuzi be le tersku poi mi djica ke'a ku'o ba cizra jela'aru'e baltepygau .iji'a cfipu murse fa le mibypre smuni .iru'a ba'o banli te jenca lifri .iju'eru'e krasi fa le mabla se manci jalge be lemi nunrapli poi rircyrai je tolfadni lifyfau .i ri mulno je se birti se krinu lebi'u curselgre cukta goiko'a .i .a'e morji le fakstu ko'a .i puki manku je jibni le xekri je raskai rirxe poi stodi muvdu bumru cnita .i revycla mutce se kumfa .i le kajna co gu'e fusra cukta culno gi drudi tcena cu simlu co fanmycau porsi vile cankycau ke nenri kumfa je kevna .iji'a barda je tarmycau derxi le cukta vi le loldi .e le rufsu tanxe .i mi facki fi ko'a vi pale derxi .i na snada lemu'e cilre le cukta tcita .i claxu le crane papri .i ko'a karzukte vi le cukta fanmo .ibabo mi suksa je tortei viska da poi runtygau le sarxe flexu pele gasysanji
+
* nanbrpitsa --- 'cause if a pizza isn't properly a fu'ivla, nothing is.
 +
* jerle'i karce "rented car"; if you insist on distinguishing between Hertz and !YellowTop, datseljatna jerle'i karce. What's that? Insufferably long? Welcome to Lojban. If you really must, karcrtaksi.
  
ni'o steci da .i mu'a liste le se cusku je se zukte ku .i'u.iire'e.a'unaisai .i da tcidu slabu mi sedi'o le noi mlimipri ke'a zi'enoi rigni joi cinrycai ku'o se ciska bele mintu be fu'e.u'ere'e le cizra je tolcni pevykakpa be fi le snura se mipri bele munje be'obe'o poi mi pu djica je ckire tcidu le cukta befi ke'a .i .au.a'afu'epe'a ckiku je gidvu fu'o ko'egoi lebi'u gremokca je banrytadji poi le cesfenki ru'i senva je blesku ke'a ze'upu le remna nuncfa ku'o zi'epoi gasnu le te facki .e le se zifre vu'ovoi bancu le marjymunje .e le plini .e le kesycanlu joike temci te cimde vu'o poi slabu mi'o fu'o .i sorctona'arbalvi lenu zo'e morji gi'a djuno co stuzi vau da .i ko'a ba'e revycla .i genai le minjypri gi le fekmli jdasivni xance ba'o ciska leko'a ckape je latmo jufra peseci'o le ruvle'u co se manci ka tolcni
+
* salsa. Good Lord.
 +
* tango. To which we'll add foxro for foxtrot, xaslo for the Hustle, and xopki for the Hokey-Pokey, no doubt.
  
ni'o ki .a'e morji lenu ko'igoi lebi'u nanmu noi tolcni puki gege ckasu se jvinu gi cizra cmila gi nalsau xansni zukte calenu mi ko'a batybei .i puku ko'i toltugni lenu mi fi vo'a pleji ko'a kei mu'i de poi clabalvi se smadi le mibypre .i calenu jarki je kruvi je bumclu rirxyla'i bo klaji sutrykla le zdani keiku mi terpa se xanri ledu'u le smamli stapa jamfu ca'o .o'unai bu'o jersi vo'a .i le xaksu tolvitno sruri zdani cu simlu le cnino je bilma jmive poi zukte zi'o le palci .ibo fu'epe'a ba'o suksa kalrygau ko'ogoi le purganlo co jilra nunsanji fu'o .i bitmu .i batytcena rudykoi .i gu'e dertu bliku gi te mledi mudri je bakri .i le peseta'i lo salpykurfa ge'u kanlysmi canko cu simlu co ckasu se jvinu .i fu'eda'i .ii rora jibni lenu nalkakne co narcfa co nerkla je danryspo be mi fu'o .iseni'inaibo ba'o tcidu le paucma po'o po'u lebi'unai jdanatfe ve sinxa pulenu ganlygau ko'a gi'ebabo batybei
+
* zombie. Because no'e morsi is ''such'' a complicated expression.
  
ni'o ki .a'e morji lenu puki mulno tcidu .uo.u'a .i za'e pilda flira .i stela le nitydru kumfa poi mi ze'u pilno ke'a lo tolfadni nunsisku po'o .i mulsma fa le zdabra .ito'unai nicte midju .i ki su'a ju'oru'e lanzu puku .iku'i na tcila birti .iju sefpre si'imei ju'osai .i na detri sanji .i ba ra ku fu'e.u'e.i'unai ba'o lifri so'i cedra .e kestei .ije ba'o runta je cnegau lemi temci sidbo fu'o .i pukiku mi lakygrana se gusni tcidu .i ru'i digyfarlu lakse .ai .i di'inai se janbe le darno galdinju .i cizra pe'ipei jundi le se janbe .i da'i mu'ibo lenu mi terpa ledu'u tirna fi ra fe di poi darnycai je zunti tonga ge'ero'enaisai
+
I mean, why are you doing this? Because it's fun? Because you can? Because lujvo actually involve a modicum of work? (But nowhere near as much as squeezing words into CVCCV does.) And how is this not a repudiation of the baseline?
  
ni'o .a'i.ue co'a sance le guska joi juxre .i bartu le canko .i canko le vorme poi te jvinu le gapru co drata drudi pele tcadu .i ko'u cabna lenu mi sagbacru le somoi pemcypau po'u da noi mujyclira .ice tepydesku jimpe fu'e.ainai le smuni be ko'u .i ca'e lo pagre be ko'e roroi te jmina le ctinytai .ije la'edi'u se balvi leza'i mulkansa fu'o .iba'o makfa benji .iju'o ko'a dunli le se jijnu be le pu mibypre .u'anaicai .i ve'a le mintu nicte kuku fe ko'e pagre le balsarlu co temci joi menli .ije le cerni nitydru bo kumfa zo'u viska fa le balmibypre ne'i le bitmu .e le kajna .e le ve lasna fe le narpruselvi'a
+
*''pe'i lei di'u valsi cu trina ki'u le nu ba'e no nu gunka cu sarcu le nu setca vy le me zoi ke CVCCV ke tarmi -- mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]''
  
ni'o na viska le munje teki'i le purci ku ba la'ede'u .i roroi mixre fa le cabna bemi be'o le cabna ku joi le so'omei be le purci .i ro le pu slabu dacti cu simlu le cizra xebe'i le cnino je zenba pu'u viska .i ze'ubakiku senva cadzu pa'o le se manci peta'i le se tolju'o .a le se junmle .i daxiny.poi fu'epe'a ckiku je gidvu fu'o zo'u li ny.mei ve mlecu fi leka mi kakne co saurju'o le dacti po'u le jarki munje noi clani bapli mi .i mi .enai lo drata cu viska le vanbi bevo'a .i smamau je naljikca binxo balmibypre seki'u lenu mi na simlu le fenki .i le gerku mi ta'e terpa .i ra jijnu fo'agoi lebi'unai ctinytai noi noroi nalylamji mi .i si'a ca'o tcidu .i tcidu le cukta .e le slanycku vu'opoi tolgubni ja se tolmorji ke'a zi'epoi le cnino puvyviska cu gidva zo'i ke'a .i mi danre pagre le darmau se ckiku pe'a pelo kensa canlu .e lo nunzasti .e lo banrymorna ge'u le muctymunje midju co se tolju'o
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**iseni'ibo lenu gismu da cu xu se sarcu ji'a le gismu simsa vlatarmi pe le krasi bangu .ue .i za'a cunso fancu -- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
  
ni'o ki .a'e morji le nicte poi vi ke'a ku mi puki zbasu mu midjymintu cukla le jelca bu'u le loldi .i sanli le midju .i sagbacru .i fo'egoi le tolcnano stepemci ba'o notci se bevri fo la tartar. i le bitmu ba'o runme .ibabo le xekri brife mi vilbei pa'o le balcoi co lolcau je grusi .i minli se cnita le jesnysmi jipno be le nalslabu cmana .ibaze'aku mulno manku .ibabo te gusni co gigdo tarci ta'i le cizra je tolslabu tarmorna .i ta'onai viska le plita co crino se gusni peni'ave'u mi .i vi ra ku sarlykru galdinju tcadu tepa'a no tcadu poi mi djuno ja tcidu ja senva sera'a ke'a .i jbimau fluvoi fa'a fo'igoi lebi'unai tcadu .icabo viska le banli rokci je kurfa dinju vi le kunti foldi .i cinmo le tolmelbi nunterpa poi jgari pe'a .i tepcmo .i damba .i za'i kunti co menli .ibabo di'a nitydru kumfa .i vreta le mu murse ke loldi cukla .i le steci nicte pu'u litru kei cu se pagbu gezu'u le mlecu befi leka cizra kei beife so'i purci nicte be'obe'o gizu'unai le zmadu befi leka tepcai .iki'ubo jimpe ledu'u mi zmadu fi leka jibni le bartu pe'a balcoi je plini keiku fe ro purci be mi .ibabo co'a to'e darsi co makfa sagbacru .i naku djica lenu seirgau le balmibypre .e le xadni .e le terdi ne'i le se tolju'o balcoi poi mi na kakne co sezyxru ke'a ta'a fu'otu'u
+
***''i cunso funca i la'e di'u mi na nabmi i la'a mi so'e le di'u valsi naku ba pilno i ku'iji'a mi na dunku le nu da'i reji'ici vy co'a se pilno loi drata --mi'e xorxes''
 +
 
 +
And we're going to repudiate the baseline for ''salsa''?!
 +
 
 +
-- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
 +
 
 +
----
 +
 
 +
<sarcasm>You've obviously never had '''Really Good Salsa'''.</sarcasm> :) --[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay]]
  
 
----
 
----
  
pinka di'u
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All right, Nick.  I admit it.  I started it all with [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/unofficial-gismu.html].  The intention was to record gismu that had had some use, as apparently pitsa and taksi had.  I apologize for the rampant wordmakery and prescriptivism that followed it. -[[User:tsali|tsali]]
 +
 
 +
tsali, I did know it was you, and I have no intent to personally attack you on it; there's no need to apologise. But I do feel someone somewhere had to voice disapproval. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
 +
 
 +
----
 +
 
 +
We've forgotten so many important ones...
 +
 
 +
* ''larva'' (x1 is the pre-adult form of x2...  (when '''verba''' isn't enough]
 +
* ''libra'' (x1 is a set of scales made of stars x2 weighing x3...)
 +
 
 +
* ''mango'' (x1 is a mango, duh)
 +
* ''kudzu'' (x1 is a mass of kuzdu, growing faster than x2, drowning countryside x3...)
 +
 
 +
* ''mambo'' (to go with ''tango'')
 +
* ''mensa'' (x1 is a high-IQ society, with cutoff x2, journal x3, deadly enmity with rival society x4... (darn, conflicts with ''mensi'', but so what?]
 +
 
 +
* ''rambo'' (x1 is Sylvester Stallone with bare skin x2)
 +
* ''zebra'' (x1 is a zebra with stripes x2, not to be confused with a tirxu)
 +
 
 +
** ''This almost makes sense (as a fu'ivla): zebra species actually are discriminated by their striping pattern.''
 +
* ''dildo'' (x1 is a sextoy used by x2 in/on organ x3 requiring cleaning x4)
 +
 
 +
* ''bilbo'' (x1 is a hobbit of breed x2 (default Harfoot]
 +
* ''frodo'' (x1 is a ring-bearing hobbit with ring x2)
 +
 
 +
* ''gimli'' (x1 is a dwarf of clan x2)
 +
* ''bravo'' (x1 is a boffo job/'''<nowiki>Qapla'</nowiki>''' performed by x2)
 +
 
 +
* ''plaza'' (x1 is a plaza/town square (or rhombus) with street performers x2)
 +
* ''porno'' (x1 is pornographic / obscene by standard x2)
 +
 
 +
I suppose these should be moved to [[jbocre: Experimental gismu|Experimental gismu]].  But then someone might take them seriously, and that would be a disaster.
 +
 
 +
Sorry for the waste of electrons; it's amazing what you find with a little grep and the right regular expressions and a silly frame of mind...
 +
 
 +
I agree with the rant, and as for the list: ''u'icai'' --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
 +
 
 +
----
 +
 
 +
I disagree. If someone uses one, shouldn't we follow the ever-recurring LLG dictum and '''Let Usage Decide'''?
 +
 
 +
This has, BTW, happened with norgo, I used it in a submission to the Lojban Story which Robin is running (And, not to get too off topic, if you are reading this Robin then fix the numbering system.) There's really no way anyone will use the stupid ones, such as (IMHO) ''salsa''. - mi'e. [[jbocre: kreig.danyl.|kreig.danyl.]]
 +
 
 +
''The dictum is rapidly becoming "Let Usage Decide, Except When It Would Contradict Me" (the rejection of short-distance soi vo'a being an excellent illustration.) For all I know, people there are going to start using ''rambo'', too. That fact alone ''does not make it right.'' And the fact that you use ''norgo'' doesn't mean Usage has decided norgo is legit. It means '''you''' have decided ''norgo'' is legit. But all the Usage in the world does not annul the considerable ideological objections to experimental gismu in general. And any criterion you invoke to say ''salsa'' is silly is ultimately just as subjective as any criterion I invoke to say ''norgo'' is silly.'' -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
 +
 
 +
*It had been used before, which is why it was on tsali's list; I was only pointing out that I knew of a specific usage. And here's a criterion for you: salsa is a subset of sasno - what is norgo a subset of (other than prenu)?
 +
** ''norgo'' isn't a subset of ''prenu'' at all. It is related to ''kulnu''.
 +
 
 +
*** Are you saying the norwegians aren't people?
 +
**** Yes.
 +
 
 +
**** Norwegian language isn't a person, but it's still norgo.
 +
 
 +
;:It's also hard for negative usage to properly compete against positive usage.  If one or two people decide to start using ''rambo'', they can gleefully point to their usage, saying that it grants the word legitimacy.  After all, there are lots of good, but obscure, gismu that have seen very little or no use, and here you have one being used!  And yet all those who reject ''rambo'' can hardly point proudly to their striking ''non''-usage of it as a demonstration that it should not be used.  Blind faith in usage does not allow a fair shot for both sides of the argument.  ''--mi'e mark''
 +
 
 +
I think "larva" is a good one. An important distinction in the insects is whether their cifnu are larva; this happens to coincide with whether the wing buds (if any) form inside or outside the body, hence the taxa Apterygota, Exopterygota, and Endopterygota. But I'll still use "cifnu" in lujvo; given that a cinki is a toldi, you know its cifnu is a larva. -[[jbocre: Pierre Abbat|phma]]
 +
 
 +
''So what exactly does ''larva'' get you that ''curnu [simsa] cifnu'' doesn't?'' -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
 +
 
 +
* Well, in [[gua\spi]] at one time there was a gismu for larva, which also means nymph and teenager; I can't seem to find it at present.
 +
 
 +
* ''larva'' may indeed be a good one, but using the word "larva" must be considered to be slangish, or a temporary measure until the gismu-making algorithm is run on it.
 +
 
 +
----
 +
 
 +
[[jbocre: Experimental gismu proposal|Let's settle this the real, macho (or as macho as lojban gets) way: Tinker at each other!]]
 +
 
 +
* ''matco'' (x1 (event) is macho/aggressively virile towards x2 (ka) under conditions x3)
 +
** Congratulations on "adding" the first sexist word into Lojban.

Revision as of 17:09, 4 November 2013

Thank you for the no-confidence vote in lujvo, and I look forward to you running out of gismu. :-( Meanwhile:

  • nanbrpitsa --- 'cause if a pizza isn't properly a fu'ivla, nothing is.
  • jerle'i karce "rented car"; if you insist on distinguishing between Hertz and !YellowTop, datseljatna jerle'i karce. What's that? Insufferably long? Welcome to Lojban. If you really must, karcrtaksi.
  • salsa. Good Lord.
  • tango. To which we'll add foxro for foxtrot, xaslo for the Hustle, and xopki for the Hokey-Pokey, no doubt.
  • zombie. Because no'e morsi is such a complicated expression.

I mean, why are you doing this? Because it's fun? Because you can? Because lujvo actually involve a modicum of work? (But nowhere near as much as squeezing words into CVCCV does.) And how is this not a repudiation of the baseline?

  • pe'i lei di'u valsi cu trina ki'u le nu ba'e no nu gunka cu sarcu le nu setca vy le me zoi ke CVCCV ke tarmi -- mi'e xorxes
    • iseni'ibo lenu gismu da cu xu se sarcu ji'a le gismu simsa vlatarmi pe le krasi bangu .ue .i za'a cunso fancu -- mi'e nitcion
      • i cunso funca i la'e di'u mi na nabmi i la'a mi so'e le di'u valsi naku ba pilno i ku'iji'a mi na dunku le nu da'i reji'ici vy co'a se pilno loi drata --mi'e xorxes

And we're going to repudiate the baseline for salsa?!

-- nitcion


<sarcasm>You've obviously never had Really Good Salsa.</sarcasm> :) --Jay


All right, Nick. I admit it. I started it all with [1]. The intention was to record gismu that had had some use, as apparently pitsa and taksi had. I apologize for the rampant wordmakery and prescriptivism that followed it. -tsali

tsali, I did know it was you, and I have no intent to personally attack you on it; there's no need to apologise. But I do feel someone somewhere had to voice disapproval. -- nitcion.


We've forgotten so many important ones...

  • larva (x1 is the pre-adult form of x2... (when verba isn't enough]
  • libra (x1 is a set of scales made of stars x2 weighing x3...)
  • mango (x1 is a mango, duh)
  • kudzu (x1 is a mass of kuzdu, growing faster than x2, drowning countryside x3...)
  • mambo (to go with tango)
  • mensa (x1 is a high-IQ society, with cutoff x2, journal x3, deadly enmity with rival society x4... (darn, conflicts with mensi, but so what?]
  • rambo (x1 is Sylvester Stallone with bare skin x2)
  • zebra (x1 is a zebra with stripes x2, not to be confused with a tirxu)
    • This almost makes sense (as a fu'ivla): zebra species actually are discriminated by their striping pattern.
  • dildo (x1 is a sextoy used by x2 in/on organ x3 requiring cleaning x4)
  • bilbo (x1 is a hobbit of breed x2 (default Harfoot]
  • frodo (x1 is a ring-bearing hobbit with ring x2)
  • gimli (x1 is a dwarf of clan x2)
  • bravo (x1 is a boffo job/Qapla' performed by x2)
  • plaza (x1 is a plaza/town square (or rhombus) with street performers x2)
  • porno (x1 is pornographic / obscene by standard x2)

I suppose these should be moved to Experimental gismu. But then someone might take them seriously, and that would be a disaster.

Sorry for the waste of electrons; it's amazing what you find with a little grep and the right regular expressions and a silly frame of mind...

I agree with the rant, and as for the list: u'icai --rab.spir


I disagree. If someone uses one, shouldn't we follow the ever-recurring LLG dictum and Let Usage Decide?

This has, BTW, happened with norgo, I used it in a submission to the Lojban Story which Robin is running (And, not to get too off topic, if you are reading this Robin then fix the numbering system.) There's really no way anyone will use the stupid ones, such as (IMHO) salsa. - mi'e. kreig.danyl.

The dictum is rapidly becoming "Let Usage Decide, Except When It Would Contradict Me" (the rejection of short-distance soi vo'a being an excellent illustration.) For all I know, people there are going to start using rambo, too. That fact alone does not make it right. And the fact that you use norgo doesn't mean Usage has decided norgo is legit. It means you have decided norgo is legit. But all the Usage in the world does not annul the considerable ideological objections to experimental gismu in general. And any criterion you invoke to say salsa is silly is ultimately just as subjective as any criterion I invoke to say norgo is silly. -- nitcion

  • It had been used before, which is why it was on tsali's list; I was only pointing out that I knew of a specific usage. And here's a criterion for you: salsa is a subset of sasno - what is norgo a subset of (other than prenu)?
    • norgo isn't a subset of prenu at all. It is related to kulnu.
      • Are you saying the norwegians aren't people?
        • Yes.
        • Norwegian language isn't a person, but it's still norgo.
It's also hard for negative usage to properly compete against positive usage. If one or two people decide to start using rambo, they can gleefully point to their usage, saying that it grants the word legitimacy. After all, there are lots of good, but obscure, gismu that have seen very little or no use, and here you have one being used! And yet all those who reject rambo can hardly point proudly to their striking non-usage of it as a demonstration that it should not be used. Blind faith in usage does not allow a fair shot for both sides of the argument. --mi'e mark

I think "larva" is a good one. An important distinction in the insects is whether their cifnu are larva; this happens to coincide with whether the wing buds (if any) form inside or outside the body, hence the taxa Apterygota, Exopterygota, and Endopterygota. But I'll still use "cifnu" in lujvo; given that a cinki is a toldi, you know its cifnu is a larva. -phma

So what exactly does larva get you that curnu [simsa] cifnu doesn't? -- nitcion

  • Well, in gua\spi at one time there was a gismu for larva, which also means nymph and teenager; I can't seem to find it at present.
  • larva may indeed be a good one, but using the word "larva" must be considered to be slangish, or a temporary measure until the gismu-making algorithm is run on it.

Let's settle this the real, macho (or as macho as lojban gets) way: Tinker at each other!

  • matco (x1 (event) is macho/aggressively virile towards x2 (ka) under conditions x3)
    • Congratulations on "adding" the first sexist word into Lojban.