rafsi fu'ivla: Difference between revisions

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The usual objection to the proposal of allowing NAI after any word is "but that would require defining the effect of ''nai'' on every single word", as if that was an impossible task. To address that objection, I present here how NAI could interact with each one of Lojban's 124 grammatical word classes. Some of them are already allowed by the grammar. Most of them are obvious. Those that are not obvious are at least plausible, in my opinion.  
Fu'ivla of the form CCVVCV, which would obtain 5-letter CCVVC [[jbocre: rafsi|rafsi]], under an experimental proposal in [[the Book|the Book]]. They were proposed for [[jbocre: cultural fu'ivla|cultural fu'ivla]], but with the note that if they turn out to work, they could be used for [[jbocre: type 4 fu'ivla]] (I'd even call them [[jbocre: type 5 fu'ivla]] because the fact that they have rafsi makes them significantly different.)


===  NAI and magic words ===
All type-3 fu'ivla ending in a single vowel, and many type-4 fu'ivla such as those of form CVVC/CVCV (e.g. ''bauksita'', bauxite) can also be given rafsi. The rule is: Remove the final vowel and try to resolve what's left into a string of rafsi, all three-letter except possibly for the last which may be four-letter, and possibly with an 'r' inserted after the first if it is CVV (or 'n' if the next letter is 'r'). If this fails, then remove the first letter and try to resolve the remainder into a string of rafsi, all three-letter except possibly for the last which may be four-letter. If this fails, and the fu'ivla begins with a consonant and ends with a single vowel, then the result of removing the final vowel is its rafsi.


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''A good thought, but that could never be parsed easily until we can figure out which word forms are fu'ivla and prove it. The morphology is complex enough already. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]''


Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
Are these rafsi meant to be used '''only''' in the first position of a lujvo? The book gives ''tci'ilykemcantutra'' as an example. Now, ''naltci'ile'' is a valid fu'ivla. Is ''naltci'ilykemcantutra'' to be interpreted as naltci'il-y-kem-can-tutra? Could we use ''nalytci'ilykemcantutra'' for nal-y-tci'il-y-kem-can-tutra? --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]


BAhE NAI  |  Yes  |  emphatic/nonce NAI
*Correct. These can be used anywhere in the lujvo. The Book's proposal cannot be used in final position, thus {cagyglauka} "barn owl" and {nalytci'ile} are valid under my proposal but not the Book's. The lujvo that have to be modified under my proposal are those that have a rafsi preceding the fu'ivla rafsi without a 'y' and a rafsi following it; a 'y' must be inserted. --phma
 
FAhO NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI is absorbed by FAhO before it can be processed
 
LOhU NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI is quoted as any word
 
SA NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI replaces the words erased by SA
 
SI NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI replaces the word erased by SI
 
SU NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI at the beginning of text
 
ZEI NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI is joined into a lujvo with word preceding ZEI; any-word ZEI any-word NAI = na'e any-word ZEI any-word
 
ZO NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI is quoted by ZO; ZO any-word NAI = na'e bo ZO any-word
 
ZOI NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI is used as delimiter word; ZOI any-word ... any-word NAI = na'e bo ZOI any-word ... any-word
 
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===  NAI and sumti ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
BE NAI  |  No  | BE NAI term = BE term NAI
 
BEI NAI  |  No  | BEI NAI term = BEI term NAI
 
FA NAI  |  No  | FA na'e bo, FA NAI KU = FA KU
 
KOhA NAI  |  No  | na'e bo KOhA
 
KU NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LA/LE, NA KU NAI = NA NAI KU, tag KU NAI = tag NAI KU, FA KU NAI = FA KU
 
LA NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LA
 
LAhE NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LAhE
 
LE NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LE
 
LEhU NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LOhU
 
LI NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LI
 
LIhU NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LU
 
LOhO NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LI
 
LUhU NAI  |  No  | na'e bo LAhE/NAhE BO
 
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===  NAI and selbri ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
BEhO NAI  |  No  | tanru-unit-2 linkargs NAI = na'e tanru-unit-2 linkargs
 
BRIVLA NAI  |  No  | na'e BRIVLA
 
GOhA NAI  |  No  | na'e GOhA
 
ME NAI  |  No  | na'e ME
 
MEhU NAI  |  No  | na'e ME
 
MOI NAI  |  No  | na'e ... MOI
 
NUhA NAI  |  No  | na'e NUhA
 
||
 
===  NAI and sentences ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
CEhE NAI  |  No  | CEhE NA KU CEhE
 
CU NAI  |  No  |  CU NA
 
GEhU NAI  |  No  | NOI ke'a NA broda
 
GOI NAI  |  No  |  NOI ke'a NA broda
 
I NAI  |  No  | negates the following sentence
 
KEI NAI  |  No  |  NU subsentence KEI NAI = NU NA KU ZOhU subsentence KEI
 
KUhO NAI  |  No  |  NOI subsentence KUhO NAI = NOI NA KU ZOhU subsentence KUhO
 
LU NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI at beginning of text
 
NA NAI  |  No  |  ja'a nai = na, na nai = ja'a
 
NOI NAI  |  No  |  NOI NA KU ZOhU
 
NU NAI  |  Yes  |  NU NA KU ZOhU
 
NUhI NAI  |  No  | NUhI NAI ... NUhU =  NUhI naku NUhI ... NUhU NUhU
 
NUhU NAI  |  No  | terms NUhU NAI = na ku terms NUhU
 
TUhE NAI  |  No  |  NAI at the beginning of text
 
TUhU NAI  |  No  |  TUhE text TUhU NAI = TUhE NAI text TUHU
 
VAU NAI  |  No  | terms VAU NAI = naku terms VAU
 
VUhO NAI  |  No  | VUhO NAI relative-clauses = VUhO relative-clause NAI [[jbocre: ZIhE relative-clause NAI|ZIhE relative-clause NAI]] ...
 
ZIhE NAI  |  No  | ZIhE NAI relative-clause = ZIhE relative-clause NAI
 
ZOhU NAI  |  No  |  ZOhU NA KU ZOhU
 
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===  NAI and connectives ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
A NAI  |  Yes  |  negates second argument of A
 
BIhI NAI  |  Yes  | as now
 
GA NAI  |  Yes  |  negates first argument of GA
 
GI NAI  |  Yes  |  negates following argument of connective
 
GIhA NAI  |  Yes  |  negates second argument of GIhA
 
GUhA NAI  |  Yes  |  negates first argument of GUhA
 
JA NAI  |  Yes  |  negates second argument of JA
 
JOI NAI  |  Yes  | as now
 
PEhE NAI  |  No  | preceding NA KU for logical connectives, other-than for non-logical
 
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===  NAI and tags ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
BAI NAI  |  Yes  |  fi'o NA broda, where BAI = fi'o broda
 
CAhA NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where CAhA = fi'o broda
 
CUhE NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where CUhE = fi'o broda
 
FAhA NAI  |  Yes  |  fi'o NA broda, where FAhA = fi'o broda
 
FEhE NAI  |  No  |  time aspects
 
FEhU NAI  |  No  |  FIhO selbri FEhU NAI = FIhO NA selbri FEhU
 
FIhO NAI  |  No  |  FIhO NAI selbri FEhU = FIhO NA selbri FEhU
 
KI NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where KI = fi'o broda
 
MOhI NAI  |  No  |  non-motion
 
PU NAI  |  Yes  |  fi'o NA broda, where PU = fi'o broda
 
ROI NAI  |  Yes  |  number ROI NAI = fi'o NA broda, where number ROI = fi'o broda
 
TAhE NAI  |  Yes  |  fi'o NA broda, where TAhE = fi'o broda
 
VA NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where VA = fi'o broda
 
VEhA NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where VEhA = fi'o broda
 
VIhA NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where VIhA = fi'o broda
 
ZAhO NAI  |  Yes  |  fi'o NA broda, where ZAhO = fi'o broda
 
ZEhA NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where ZEhA = fi'o broda
 
ZI NAI  |  No  |  fi'o NA broda, where ZI = fi'o broda
 
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===  NAI and indicators and free modifiers ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
CAI NAI  |  Yes  | as now
 
COI NAI  |  Yes  | as now
 
DAhO NAI  |  No  |  recover pro-assign
 
DOhU NAI  |  No  | unvocative marker; not speaking to you ...
 
DOI NAI  |  No  | unvocative marker; not speaking to you ...
 
FUhE NAI  |  No  |  negate composite indicator
 
FUhO NAI  |  No  |  negate composite indicator
 
NAI NAI  |  No  |  ja'ai nai = nai, nai nai = ja'ai
 
SEhU NAI  |  No  | SEI NAI / SOI NAI
 
SEI NAI  |  No  | SEI na ku
 
SOI NAI  |  No  |  non-reciprocity
 
TO NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI at the beginning of text
 
TOI NAI  |  No  |  TO text TOI NAI = TO NAI text TOI
 
UI NAI  |  Yes  |  opposite UI
 
XI NAI  |  No  |  superscript
 
Y NAI  |  Yes  |  NAI
 
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===  NAI and numbers and lerfu-strings ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
BOI NAI  |  No  | other than (number BOI)/(lerfu-string BOI)
 
BU NAI  |  No  | other than (... BU)
 
BY NAI  |  No  | other than BY
 
FOI NAI  |  No  | other than (TEI lerfu-string FOI)
 
LAU NAI  |  No  |  cancel letteral shift
 
MAI NAI  |  No  | ( number | lerfu-string) MAI NAI = other than (number | lerfu-string) MAI
 
PA NAI  |  No  | other than PA
 
TEI NAI  |  No  | other than (TEI lerfu-string FOI)
 
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===  NAI and mex ===
 
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Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
BIhE NAI  |  No  | other than (operator)
 
FUhA NAI  |  No  | other than (FUhA rp-expression)
 
JOhI NAI  |  No  | na'e bo JOhI
 
KUhE NAI  |  No  | other than (PEhO ... KUhE)
 
MAhO NAI  |  No  | na'e MAhO
 
MOhE NAI  |  No  | na'e bo MOhE
 
NAhU NAI  |  No  | na'e NAhU
 
NIhE NAI  |  No  | na'e bo NIhE
 
PEhO NAI  |  No  | other than (PEhO ... KUhE)
 
TEhU NAI  |  No  | na'e/na'ebo ... TEhU
 
VEhO NAI  |  No  | other than (VEI mex VEhO)
 
VEI NAI  |  No  | other than (VEI mex VEhO)
 
VUhU NAI  |  No  | na'e VUhU
 
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===  NAI and the rest ===
 
||
 
Selmaho | Now? | Proposed effect
 
BO NAI  |  No  | negates what follows in accordance with rules for that structure
 
CEI NAI  |  No  | (other than selbri) assign
 
CMENE NAI  |  No  |  incorporated to the name
 
CO NAI  |  No  | no tanru inversion
 
GAhO NAI  |  No  |  ke'inai = ga'o, ga'onai = ke'i
 
JAI NAI  |  No  | no modal conversion
 
KE NAI  |  No  | negates bracketed structure in accordance with rules for that structure
 
KEhE NAI  |  No  | negates bracketed structure in accordance with rules for that structure
 
NAhE NAI  |  No  | na'e nai = je'a, je'a nai = na'e, no'e nai = other than neutral point, to'e nai = je'a (as a polar extreme)
 
NIhO NAI  |  No  |  ni'onai = no'i, no'inai = ni'o
 
RAhO NAI  |  No  |  pro-assign non-update
 
SE NAI  |  No  | no conversion
 
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Revision as of 17:09, 4 November 2013

Fu'ivla of the form CCVVCV, which would obtain 5-letter CCVVC rafsi, under an experimental proposal in the Book. They were proposed for cultural fu'ivla, but with the note that if they turn out to work, they could be used for jbocre: type 4 fu'ivla (I'd even call them jbocre: type 5 fu'ivla because the fact that they have rafsi makes them significantly different.)

All type-3 fu'ivla ending in a single vowel, and many type-4 fu'ivla such as those of form CVVC/CVCV (e.g. bauksita, bauxite) can also be given rafsi. The rule is: Remove the final vowel and try to resolve what's left into a string of rafsi, all three-letter except possibly for the last which may be four-letter, and possibly with an 'r' inserted after the first if it is CVV (or 'n' if the next letter is 'r'). If this fails, then remove the first letter and try to resolve the remainder into a string of rafsi, all three-letter except possibly for the last which may be four-letter. If this fails, and the fu'ivla begins with a consonant and ends with a single vowel, then the result of removing the final vowel is its rafsi.

A good thought, but that could never be parsed easily until we can figure out which word forms are fu'ivla and prove it. The morphology is complex enough already. --rab.spir

Are these rafsi meant to be used only in the first position of a lujvo? The book gives tci'ilykemcantutra as an example. Now, naltci'ile is a valid fu'ivla. Is naltci'ilykemcantutra to be interpreted as naltci'il-y-kem-can-tutra? Could we use nalytci'ilykemcantutra for nal-y-tci'il-y-kem-can-tutra? --xorxes

  • Correct. These can be used anywhere in the lujvo. The Book's proposal cannot be used in final position, thus {cagyglauka} "barn owl" and {nalytci'ile} are valid under my proposal but not the Book's. The lujvo that have to be modified under my proposal are those that have a rafsi preceding the fu'ivla rafsi without a 'y' and a rafsi following it; a 'y' must be inserted. --phma
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