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{{se inspekte/en}}{{cmavo|poi'i|NU|x1 is such that poi'i abstraction is true; x1 binds ke'a within the abstraction.}}
{{cmavo|poi'i|NU|x1 is such that poi'i abstraction is true; x1 binds ke'a within the abstraction.}}
*Earlier the particle [[kai'i]] was proposed for this meaning.
 
*See [[SE ka]] for a nicer but non-baseline-conformant alternative.
 
{{se inspekte/en}}
 
==Proposed Definition==
Prenex predicate abstraction. x1 is such that the contained bridi holds true of it. Contains a {ke'a} whose antecedent is the x1 of the '''poi'i'''-abstraction. Allows for many kinds of argument-fronting and mid-sentence prenexes.
 
==See Also:==
* {zo'u}
 
==Keywords==


==Examples==
'''poi'i''' is a NU abstractor, therefore a '''poi'i'''-phrase has the form '''<nowiki>poi'i [bridi] (kei)</nowiki>''', and behaves as a [[selbri]]. Thus it has a syntax different from that of '''poi'''.
'''poi'i''' is a NU abstractor, therefore a '''poi'i'''-phrase has the form '''<nowiki>poi'i [bridi] (kei)</nowiki>''', and behaves as a [[selbri]]. Thus it has a syntax different from that of '''poi'''.
It's a kind of syntactic sugar, it helps having more word order freedom. The '''ke'a''' within the bridi enclosed by '''poi'i'''...'''kei''' binds to (stands for) the x1 of the selbri created by '''poi'i...kei'''. '''poi'i''' parallels the English construction ''X is such that ... it ...''


{{mu|fo'a poi'i (ke'a) broda (kei) {{=}} fo'a is such that <nowiki>[ it/him/he/they ]</nowiki> is broda {{=}} fo'a broda}}
{{mu|fo'a poi'i (ke'a) broda (kei) {{=}} fo'a is such that <nowiki>[ it/him/he/they ]</nowiki> is broda {{=}} fo'a broda}}
So it's a kind of syntactic sugar, it helps having more word order freedom. The '''ke'a''' within the bridi enclosed by '''poi'i'''...'''kei''' binds to (stands for) the x1 of the selbri created by '''poi'i...kei'''. '''poi'i''' parallels the English construction ''X is such that ... it ...''
{{mu|la .pam. cu melbi gi'e poi'i so'i da nelci {{=}} la .pam. cu melbi gi'e se nelci so'i da|Pam is beautiful and is such that many like her. {{=}} Pam is beautiful and is liked by many.}}
{{mu|la .pam. cu melbi gi'e poi'i so'i da nelci {{=}} la .pam. cu melbi gi'e se nelci so'i da|Pam is beautiful and is such that many like her. {{=}} Pam is beautiful and is liked by many.}}
Here, '''poi'i so'i da nelci ke'a''', underlined in the example, is a predicate which means ''x1 is such that many things like x1''.
Here, '''poi'i so'i da nelci ke'a''', underlined in the example, is a predicate which means ''x1 is such that many things like x1''.
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{{mu|mi kecti lo poi'i ke'a jinvi lo du'u ke'a to'e melbi|I feel sorry for the-thing(s)-which is/are-such-that it/they think that it/they are the-opposite-of-beautiful. {{=}} I feel sorry for those who think that they aren't beautiful.}}
{{mu|mi kecti lo poi'i ke'a jinvi lo du'u ke'a to'e melbi|I feel sorry for the-thing(s)-which is/are-such-that it/they think that it/they are the-opposite-of-beautiful. {{=}} I feel sorry for those who think that they aren't beautiful.}}


=Discussion=
{{mu|lo mumdei ku po'o poi'i mi penmi lo pampe'o ca ke'a|Fridays are the only time I meet my loved one.}}
* John Cowan:
 
** Can you provide a concrete example of such an abstraction, and an x1 that would make it true? I don't understand this.
wh-fronting:
*** And Rosta:
{{mu|ba'e ma poi'i do klama ke'a|WHERE IS IT that you are going?}}
**** It's a utility.
 
**** 1. It allows de facto prenexes without need for goi:
Mid-sentence prenex:
**** '''mi viska la djan = la djan goi ko'a zo'u mi viska ko'a = la djan poi'i mi viska ke'a'''
{{mu|la .pam. cu melbi gi'e poi'i so'i da nelci ke'a|Pam is beautiful and is liked by many.|...is such that many like her}}
**** 2. It allows for reflexives:
 
**** '''mi poi'i ke'a viska ke'a'''  = ''I see myself.''
Mid-sentence prenex with nested pronoun:
**** '''mi poi'i ke'a jinvi tu'o du'u ke'a melbi''' = ''I believe myself to be beautiful.''
{{mu|la. pit. cu stati gi'e poi'i so'i da manci lo nu ke'a dansu|Pete is talented and many are amazed by his dancing.}}
**** 3. It allows sumti tail formation in cases that can otherwise be difficult to handle:
 
**** '''le poi'i la djan jinvi tu'o du'u ke'a melbi''' = ''certain ones who John believes to be beautiful''
{{mu|mi kecti lo poi'i ke'a jinvi lo du'u ke'a to'e melbi|I feel sorry for those who think that they aren't beautiful.}}
**** '''le poi'i ke'a viska ke'a''' = ''certain ones who see themselves''
 
**** The basic idea is a NOI converted into a NU.
==Formulae==
*[[.djorden.|.djorden.]]:
* '''ko'a poi'i ke'a broda''' == '''ko'a broda'''
*:I had trouble understanding at first because I missed that its selma'o is NU and not NOI.  Maybe it should use a different cmavo than ke'a so you don't confuse those used to poi?  (zo ke'ai zo'o)
* '''su'o da zo'u da broda''' == '''su'o da poi'i ke'a broda'''
*:(For the record I don't like or advocate this cmavo)
* '''ko'a poi'i ko'e broda ''preposition'' ke'a''' == '''ko'e broda ''preposition'' ko'a'''
*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
* '''ko'a goi fo'a broda fo'a''' == '''ko'a poi'i ke'a broda ke'a'''
*: Such ambiguities already arise with NOI within NOI, and the official solution to that problem, viz '''xi'''-subscripting, could be used here, without having to create yet another cmavo. Indeed, when '''ce'u''' was created I was opposed to it, advocating the use of '''ke'a''' instead, and I hold to that view still.
 
**[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
==Merits==
**:I agree that '''ke'a'''/'''ce'u''' are essentially the same thing. I used '''ke'u''' with '''ka''' before '''ce'u''' was created. I like the flexibility that '''poi'i''' affords, but I prefer '''seka''' for that meaning.
'''poi'i''' has a wide range of applications, from fluid prenexes to '''jai'''-like argument fronting (but without needing '''fai''') and is helpful when a [[bridi]] contains complex scope interactions. It allows one to easily express complex reflexives, and overall increases Lojban's flexibilty at the word order level. As '''poi'i''' is like a mid-sentence prenex, it also enables the use of quasi-prenexes after bridi-tail connectives (see examples above).
***pc:
 
***:Ummh, can someone explain to me what similarities there  are between '''ke'a''', a restricted anaphora, and '''ce'u''' a bound variable in abstractions?
==History==
****One way to see the similarity is to replace '''poi''' with '''pe sekai le ka''' (or '''noi''' with '''ne sekai le ka'''), so for example '''le broda poi ke'a brode''' is '''le broda pe sekai le ka ce'u brode'''. In both cases, relative-clause = NOI subsentence /KUhO/, tanru-unit = NU subsentence /KEI/, the respective KOhA keeps a slot in the subsentence open. One important difference is that multiple uses of '''ke'a''' collapse to a single slot, while multiple uses of '''ce'u''' correspond to different slots.
*Earlier the particle [[kai'i]] was proposed for this meaning.
**** Ahah! When spun out in certain contexts they give the same resultant claim, not that they are conceptually at all similar.  Sorta like '''ka''' and '''du'u''', without the grammatical similarities.
*See [[SE ka]] for a nicer but non-baseline-conformant alternative.
**[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
**: I agree. I think I must have proposed '''poi'i''' because '''ka''' has no x2 (and IMO nor should it). But that leaves '''se ka''' meaningless, and a reasonable interpretation it to take '''se ka''' as forcing a predicate that is is a verion of '''ka''' with an x2. Okay, then - see [[SE + x2-less brivla]].
*[[MartinBays|.maten.]]:
*:Is there any circumstance in which '''poi'i''' can't be replaced by '''du DA poi''' (or '''du lo du poi'''), being only one or two syllables longer and non-experimental?
{{mu|mi du da poi ke'a viska ke'a|I am one who sees themself.}}
{{mu|le du be da poi ke'a viska ke'a|Certain ones which equal something which sees itself.}}
**[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
*** Yes, '''poi'i''' is approximately '''du (be) da poi''', therefrom its form, but it doesn't use up a variable. Many cmavo can be paraphrased in terms of other cmavo, but it is still convenient to have the compact forms. In your example, a difference would appear if you were to write the sumti after the selbri: Compare '''poi'i ke'a broda kei fa ro de''' with '''du su'o da poi ke'a broda ku'o fa ro de'''. In the second case, '''ro de''' is within the scope of '''su'o da'''. ('''poi'i''' is probably fully equivalent to '''du (be) tu'o da poi'''.)
*[[User:mudri|mudri]]:
** Isn't this just [[new voi]]? I guess '''poi'i''' is better for backwards compatibility.
*** [[la gleki]]:
**** This is in fact the original cmavo. '''voi''' instead of '''poi'i''' was proposed much later.

Latest revision as of 08:36, 16 January 2016

poi'i [NU] particle: x1 is such that poi'i abstraction is true; x1 binds ke'a within the abstraction.


Proposed Definition

Prenex predicate abstraction. x1 is such that the contained bridi holds true of it. Contains a {ke'a} whose antecedent is the x1 of the poi'i-abstraction. Allows for many kinds of argument-fronting and mid-sentence prenexes.

See Also:

  • {zo'u}

Keywords

Examples

poi'i is a NU abstractor, therefore a poi'i-phrase has the form poi'i [bridi] (kei), and behaves as a selbri. Thus it has a syntax different from that of poi. It's a kind of syntactic sugar, it helps having more word order freedom. The ke'a within the bridi enclosed by poi'i...kei binds to (stands for) the x1 of the selbri created by poi'i...kei. poi'i parallels the English construction X is such that ... it ...

fo'a poi'i (ke'a) broda (kei) = fo'a is such that [ it/him/he/they ] is broda = fo'a broda
la .pam. cu melbi gi'e poi'i so'i da nelci = la .pam. cu melbi gi'e se nelci so'i da
Pam is beautiful and is such that many like her. = Pam is beautiful and is liked by many.

Here, poi'i so'i da nelci ke'a, underlined in the example, is a predicate which means x1 is such that many things like x1.

la. pit. cu stati gi'e poi'i so'i da manci lo nu ke'a dansu = la. pit. cu stati .ije so'i da manci lo nu la .pit. cu dansu
Pete is talented and (is such that) many are amazed by his dancing.
mi kecti lo poi'i ke'a jinvi lo du'u ke'a to'e melbi
I feel sorry for the-thing(s)-which is/are-such-that it/they think that it/they are the-opposite-of-beautiful. = I feel sorry for those who think that they aren't beautiful.
lo mumdei ku po'o poi'i mi penmi lo pampe'o ca ke'a
Fridays are the only time I meet my loved one.

wh-fronting:

ba'e ma poi'i do klama ke'a
WHERE IS IT that you are going?

Mid-sentence prenex:

la .pam. cu melbi gi'e poi'i so'i da nelci ke'a
Pam is beautiful and is liked by many.
...is such that many like her [literally]

Mid-sentence prenex with nested pronoun:

la. pit. cu stati gi'e poi'i so'i da manci lo nu ke'a dansu
Pete is talented and many are amazed by his dancing.
mi kecti lo poi'i ke'a jinvi lo du'u ke'a to'e melbi
I feel sorry for those who think that they aren't beautiful.

Formulae

  • ko'a poi'i ke'a broda == ko'a broda
  • su'o da zo'u da broda == su'o da poi'i ke'a broda
  • ko'a poi'i ko'e broda preposition ke'a == ko'e broda preposition ko'a
  • ko'a goi fo'a broda fo'a == ko'a poi'i ke'a broda ke'a

Merits

poi'i has a wide range of applications, from fluid prenexes to jai-like argument fronting (but without needing fai) and is helpful when a bridi contains complex scope interactions. It allows one to easily express complex reflexives, and overall increases Lojban's flexibilty at the word order level. As poi'i is like a mid-sentence prenex, it also enables the use of quasi-prenexes after bridi-tail connectives (see examples above).

History

  • Earlier the particle kai'i was proposed for this meaning.
  • See SE ka for a nicer but non-baseline-conformant alternative.
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