https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&feed=atom&action=historynoda - Revision history2024-03-28T09:52:41ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=96157&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "xod" to "la xod"2014-06-08T10:50:02Z<p>Text replace - "<a href="/papri/User:Xod" title="User:Xod">xod</a>" to "<a href="/papri/User:Xod" title="User:Xod">la xod</a>"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''e'o ko su'oroi ciksi tu'a le nibli be le du'u lo'u noda le'u frica lo'u lo 0mei le'u .i mi'e [[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''e'o ko su'oroi ciksi tu'a le nibli be le du'u lo'u noda le'u frica lo'u lo 0mei le'u .i mi'e [[User:xod|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">la </ins>xod]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The critical point is that the scope of ''da'' is always the universe, while the scope of the bridi is determined by its tense, which is usually at least partly vague. So ''noda'' means "nothing in the universe, not even something outside the scope of the bridi". ''nomei'' does not have universal scope, but vague scope like any other untensed selbri; it is saying only "a group of zero things in my scope". It's a subtle point, and not explained above.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The critical point is that the scope of ''da'' is always the universe, while the scope of the bridi is determined by its tense, which is usually at least partly vague. So ''noda'' means "nothing in the universe, not even something outside the scope of the bridi". ''nomei'' does not have universal scope, but vague scope like any other untensed selbri; it is saying only "a group of zero things in my scope". It's a subtle point, and not explained above.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I'm not sure I would put it that way. ''mi klama noda'' to me means that it is not the case that I go somewhere, it has no insistence on any absolute. If I don't go now, I'm not a goer now, but I may have gone in the past, that's up to context. ''mi klama noda'' is exactly equivalent to ''mi klama naku su'oda'', which in turn is ''mi na klama da''. This is very similar in English: I go nowhere = I don't go anywhere. The difference with English is more noticeable with "nouns", a distinction which Lojban does not make. ''ta kacma noda'' does not mean that ''ta'' is really a ''kacma'' of some kind or another, it says that ''ta'' does not ''kacma'' anything, so is no ''kacma''. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' is different because ''lo nomei'' is "at least one zero-some". What is a "zero-some"? I don't know for sure, it depends on context, it is in fact ''lo nomei be zo'e'', "a zero-some of something", so there can be different zero-somes. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' says that ''ta'' does ''kacma'' at least one zero-some, so it is in fact a ''kacma''. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I'm not sure I would put it that way. ''mi klama noda'' to me means that it is not the case that I go somewhere, it has no insistence on any absolute. If I don't go now, I'm not a goer now, but I may have gone in the past, that's up to context. ''mi klama noda'' is exactly equivalent to ''mi klama naku su'oda'', which in turn is ''mi na klama da''. This is very similar in English: I go nowhere = I don't go anywhere. The difference with English is more noticeable with "nouns", a distinction which Lojban does not make. ''ta kacma noda'' does not mean that ''ta'' is really a ''kacma'' of some kind or another, it says that ''ta'' does not ''kacma'' anything, so is no ''kacma''. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' is different because ''lo nomei'' is "at least one zero-some". What is a "zero-some"? I don't know for sure, it depends on context, it is in fact ''lo nomei be zo'e'', "a zero-some of something", so there can be different zero-somes. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' says that ''ta'' does ''kacma'' at least one zero-some, so it is in fact a ''kacma''. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Great. We're reduced to metaphysical distinctions between the empty-set and nonexistence. (Does the nonexistence of the empty-set really exist?) But side-stepping the universal scope of da, which I also don't quite agree with, when ''mi klama noda'', then ''lo'i selka'a be mi'' is empty; so in a sense I really did ''klama lo nomei''. Take another shot at describing this alleged distinction. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Great. We're reduced to metaphysical distinctions between the empty-set and nonexistence. (Does the nonexistence of the empty-set really exist?) But side-stepping the universal scope of da, which I also don't quite agree with, when ''mi klama noda'', then ''lo'i selka'a be mi'' is empty; so in a sense I really did ''klama lo nomei''. Take another shot at describing this alleged distinction. --[[User:xod|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">la </ins>xod]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''lo nomei'' is admittedly a contrived concept, but it is in any case a ''su'o da'', so clearly incompatible with ''no da''. But ''no da'' is crystal clear, it contains a negation, it is logically equivalent to ''naku su'o da'', so it is hard to understand how ''da poi broda node cu broda'' can be defended. It could only work if you use different implicit tenses with each broda, but that's tantamount to cheating (similar to switching implicit velju'o midsentence!). The logic of this: <<''when ''mi klama noda'', then ''lo'i selka'a be mi'' is empty; so in a sense I really did ''klama lo nomei'' ''>> escapes me. In what sense? If ''mi patfu noda'', then ''lo'i selpatfu be mi'' is empty, so in a sense I really am a father? --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''lo nomei'' is admittedly a contrived concept, but it is in any case a ''su'o da'', so clearly incompatible with ''no da''. But ''no da'' is crystal clear, it contains a negation, it is logically equivalent to ''naku su'o da'', so it is hard to understand how ''da poi broda node cu broda'' can be defended. It could only work if you use different implicit tenses with each broda, but that's tantamount to cheating (similar to switching implicit velju'o midsentence!). The logic of this: <<''when ''mi klama noda'', then ''lo'i selka'a be mi'' is empty; so in a sense I really did ''klama lo nomei'' ''>> escapes me. In what sense? If ''mi patfu noda'', then ''lo'i selpatfu be mi'' is empty, so in a sense I really am a father? --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Sure, you're a father of zero children; a father of nothing. "Nothing" is how I render ''nomei'', the empty-set. And no, ''nomei'' is not ''su'oda''. Anyway, it's up to you folks to show me the difference between being a father of 0 kids, and being a non-father. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Sure, you're a father of zero children; a father of nothing. "Nothing" is how I render ''nomei'', the empty-set. And no, ''nomei'' is not ''su'oda''. Anyway, it's up to you folks to show me the difference between being a father of 0 kids, and being a non-father. --[[User:xod|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">la </ins>xod]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I ([[rab.spir|(rab.spir]]) am not sure that the idea of ''lo nomei'' really works, but I thought I would include it on this page because it seems more useful than ''zi'o''. Whether or not ''lo nomei'' works, it is still clear that ''noda'' is a negation of the bridi.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I ([[rab.spir|(rab.spir]]) am not sure that the idea of ''lo nomei'' really works, but I thought I would include it on this page because it seems more useful than ''zi'o''. Whether or not ''lo nomei'' works, it is still clear that ''noda'' is a negation of the bridi.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''For zi'o to be useful it should go beyond the trivial ''noda''; it should mean, in this case, that the concept of fatherhood doesn't apply at all here. Mules are ''patfu zi'o'', as well as being ''patfu noda''. And yes, I realize that the above example says that you sired the empty-set, which, if taken obnoxiously, is just as silly as claiming responsibility for having sired any other mathematical entity. So let's not get that literal, preferring instead to interpret it in the way it was intended. I saw this attack coming and decided to stub it out pre-emptively. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''For zi'o to be useful it should go beyond the trivial ''noda''; it should mean, in this case, that the concept of fatherhood doesn't apply at all here. Mules are ''patfu zi'o'', as well as being ''patfu noda''. And yes, I realize that the above example says that you sired the empty-set, which, if taken obnoxiously, is just as silly as claiming responsibility for having sired any other mathematical entity. So let's not get that literal, preferring instead to interpret it in the way it was intended. I saw this attack coming and decided to stub it out pre-emptively. --[[User:xod|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">la </ins>xod]]''</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* You're just being paranoid, then, because {nomei} isn't a set. It is a group of zero somethings. The empty set would be {lu'i lo nomei}. --[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* You're just being paranoid, then, because {nomei} isn't a set. It is a group of zero somethings. The empty set would be {lu'i lo nomei}. --[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=92277&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T15:36:37Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:36, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Hmmm... I would say that ''lu'i lo nomei'' is a set with at least one zero-some as an element. ''lu'i ci lo nomei'' is a set with three zero-somes as elements. ''lu'i noda'' is the empty set, i.e. the set with no elements. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Hmmm... I would say that ''lu'i lo nomei'' is a set with at least one zero-some as an element. ''lu'i ci lo nomei'' is a set with three zero-somes as elements. ''lu'i noda'' is the empty set, i.e. the set with no elements. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Here's another word for nothing: ''nonlai''. This covers ''lo rupnu be li no'', ''lo mitre be li no'', etc. -[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Pierre Abbat|phma]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Here's another word for nothing: ''nonlai''. This covers ''lo rupnu be li no'', ''lo mitre be li no'', etc. -[[Pierre Abbat|phma]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=90196&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:46:13Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:46, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A phrase for "nothing" which keeps the predicate true is ''lo nomei''. This means that, whatever objects fit in that place, zero of them are actually doing it. So ''lo kacma be fi lo nomei'' could describe a camera with no film, because there are things which film a camera; but it does not describe a tree, because there is nothing which films a tree.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A phrase for "nothing" which keeps the predicate true is ''lo nomei''. This means that, whatever objects fit in that place, zero of them are actually doing it. So ''lo kacma be fi lo nomei'' could describe a camera with no film, because there are things which film a camera; but it does not describe a tree, because there is nothing which films a tree.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''e'o ko su'oroi ciksi tu'a le nibli be le du'u lo'u noda le'u frica lo'u lo 0mei le'u .i mi'e [[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''e'o ko su'oroi ciksi tu'a le nibli be le du'u lo'u noda le'u frica lo'u lo 0mei le'u .i mi'e [[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l21">Line 21:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The critical point is that the scope of ''da'' is always the universe, while the scope of the bridi is determined by its tense, which is usually at least partly vague. So ''noda'' means "nothing in the universe, not even something outside the scope of the bridi". ''nomei'' does not have universal scope, but vague scope like any other untensed selbri; it is saying only "a group of zero things in my scope". It's a subtle point, and not explained above.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The critical point is that the scope of ''da'' is always the universe, while the scope of the bridi is determined by its tense, which is usually at least partly vague. So ''noda'' means "nothing in the universe, not even something outside the scope of the bridi". ''nomei'' does not have universal scope, but vague scope like any other untensed selbri; it is saying only "a group of zero things in my scope". It's a subtle point, and not explained above.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>To expand a bit: If you hear ''mi klama lo zdani'' you will normally assume, unless there's a reason otherwise, that ''klama'' and ''zdani'' have the same tense; you don't usually expect it to mean ''mi ca ca'o klama lo ca ba'o zdani''. The same holds for ''mi klama lo nomei''; if the understood tense is ''ca ca'o'' then perhaps you do ''klama'' something at another time, merely not ''ca ca'o''. But in ''mi klama noda'', the ''noda'' means nothing, ever, anywhere,''ze'eca fe'eroroi nomei'', because ''da'' is existential. (Maybe next year I will be able to say this in Lojban.) ''mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>jezrax|jezrax]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>To expand a bit: If you hear ''mi klama lo zdani'' you will normally assume, unless there's a reason otherwise, that ''klama'' and ''zdani'' have the same tense; you don't usually expect it to mean ''mi ca ca'o klama lo ca ba'o zdani''. The same holds for ''mi klama lo nomei''; if the understood tense is ''ca ca'o'' then perhaps you do ''klama'' something at another time, merely not ''ca ca'o''. But in ''mi klama noda'', the ''noda'' means nothing, ever, anywhere,''ze'eca fe'eroroi nomei'', because ''da'' is existential. (Maybe next year I will be able to say this in Lojban.) ''mi'e [[jezrax|jezrax]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I'm not sure I would put it that way. ''mi klama noda'' to me means that it is not the case that I go somewhere, it has no insistence on any absolute. If I don't go now, I'm not a goer now, but I may have gone in the past, that's up to context. ''mi klama noda'' is exactly equivalent to ''mi klama naku su'oda'', which in turn is ''mi na klama da''. This is very similar in English: I go nowhere = I don't go anywhere. The difference with English is more noticeable with "nouns", a distinction which Lojban does not make. ''ta kacma noda'' does not mean that ''ta'' is really a ''kacma'' of some kind or another, it says that ''ta'' does not ''kacma'' anything, so is no ''kacma''. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' is different because ''lo nomei'' is "at least one zero-some". What is a "zero-some"? I don't know for sure, it depends on context, it is in fact ''lo nomei be zo'e'', "a zero-some of something", so there can be different zero-somes. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' says that ''ta'' does ''kacma'' at least one zero-some, so it is in fact a ''kacma''. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I'm not sure I would put it that way. ''mi klama noda'' to me means that it is not the case that I go somewhere, it has no insistence on any absolute. If I don't go now, I'm not a goer now, but I may have gone in the past, that's up to context. ''mi klama noda'' is exactly equivalent to ''mi klama naku su'oda'', which in turn is ''mi na klama da''. This is very similar in English: I go nowhere = I don't go anywhere. The difference with English is more noticeable with "nouns", a distinction which Lojban does not make. ''ta kacma noda'' does not mean that ''ta'' is really a ''kacma'' of some kind or another, it says that ''ta'' does not ''kacma'' anything, so is no ''kacma''. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' is different because ''lo nomei'' is "at least one zero-some". What is a "zero-some"? I don't know for sure, it depends on context, it is in fact ''lo nomei be zo'e'', "a zero-some of something", so there can be different zero-somes. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' says that ''ta'' does ''kacma'' at least one zero-some, so it is in fact a ''kacma''. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Sure, you're a father of zero children; a father of nothing. "Nothing" is how I render ''nomei'', the empty-set. And no, ''nomei'' is not ''su'oda''. Anyway, it's up to you folks to show me the difference between being a father of 0 kids, and being a non-father. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Sure, you're a father of zero children; a father of nothing. "Nothing" is how I render ''nomei'', the empty-set. And no, ''nomei'' is not ''su'oda''. Anyway, it's up to you folks to show me the difference between being a father of 0 kids, and being a non-father. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I ([[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>rab.spir|(rab.spir]]) am not sure that the idea of ''lo nomei'' really works, but I thought I would include it on this page because it seems more useful than ''zi'o''. Whether or not ''lo nomei'' works, it is still clear that ''noda'' is a negation of the bridi.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I ([[rab.spir|(rab.spir]]) am not sure that the idea of ''lo nomei'' really works, but I thought I would include it on this page because it seems more useful than ''zi'o''. Whether or not ''lo nomei'' works, it is still clear that ''noda'' is a negation of the bridi.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''For zi'o to be useful it should go beyond the trivial ''noda''; it should mean, in this case, that the concept of fatherhood doesn't apply at all here. Mules are ''patfu zi'o'', as well as being ''patfu noda''. And yes, I realize that the above example says that you sired the empty-set, which, if taken obnoxiously, is just as silly as claiming responsibility for having sired any other mathematical entity. So let's not get that literal, preferring instead to interpret it in the way it was intended. I saw this attack coming and decided to stub it out pre-emptively. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''For zi'o to be useful it should go beyond the trivial ''noda''; it should mean, in this case, that the concept of fatherhood doesn't apply at all here. Mules are ''patfu zi'o'', as well as being ''patfu noda''. And yes, I realize that the above example says that you sired the empty-set, which, if taken obnoxiously, is just as silly as claiming responsibility for having sired any other mathematical entity. So let's not get that literal, preferring instead to interpret it in the way it was intended. I saw this attack coming and decided to stub it out pre-emptively. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* You're just being paranoid, then, because {nomei} isn't a set. It is a group of zero somethings. The empty set would be {lu'i lo nomei}. --[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* You're just being paranoid, then, because {nomei} isn't a set. It is a group of zero somethings. The empty set would be {lu'i lo nomei}. --[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Hmmm... I would say that ''lu'i lo nomei'' is a set with at least one zero-some as an element. ''lu'i ci lo nomei'' is a set with three zero-somes as elements. ''lu'i noda'' is the empty set, i.e. the set with no elements. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Hmmm... I would say that ''lu'i lo nomei'' is a set with at least one zero-some as an element. ''lu'i ci lo nomei'' is a set with three zero-somes as elements. ''lu'i noda'' is the empty set, i.e. the set with no elements. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If ''da'' is already bound, ''noda'' does not have the meaning discussed above. ''da prami noda'' is true, for example. ''mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>jezrax|jezrax]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If ''da'' is already bound, ''noda'' does not have the meaning discussed above. ''da prami noda'' is true, for example. ''mi'e [[jezrax|jezrax]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>existential requantification|existential requantification]] earned a long discussion.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This [[existential requantification|existential requantification]] earned a long discussion.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>zo'o noda vamji levisu'u casnu</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>zo'o noda vamji levisu'u casnu</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=88680&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: noda to noda without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: n" to "n"2014-03-23T12:21:07Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_noda&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: noda (page does not exist)">jbocre: noda</a> to <a href="/papri/noda" title="noda">noda</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: n" to "n"</p>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=87830&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: b" to "b"2014-03-23T12:05:56Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: b" to "b"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This applies to all predicates, so to take an example from [[camera obscura|camera obscura]], ''ta kacma fi noda'' does not mean "That is a camera with no film". It means "There is nothing which is-the-film-of that", which applies better to a tree than a camera.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This applies to all predicates, so to take an example from [[camera obscura|camera obscura]], ''ta kacma fi noda'' does not mean "That is a camera with no film". It means "There is nothing which is-the-film-of that", which applies better to a tree than a camera.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A corollary to this is that ''zo'e'' never means ''noda'', a fact we have already encountered in the [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>botpi|botpi]] discussion.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A corollary to this is that ''zo'e'' never means ''noda'', a fact we have already encountered in the [[botpi|botpi]] discussion.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A phrase for "nothing" which keeps the predicate true is ''lo nomei''. This means that, whatever objects fit in that place, zero of them are actually doing it. So ''lo kacma be fi lo nomei'' could describe a camera with no film, because there are things which film a camera; but it does not describe a tree, because there is nothing which films a tree.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A phrase for "nothing" which keeps the predicate true is ''lo nomei''. This means that, whatever objects fit in that place, zero of them are actually doing it. So ''lo kacma be fi lo nomei'' could describe a camera with no film, because there are things which film a camera; but it does not describe a tree, because there is nothing which films a tree.</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=86874&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"2014-03-23T11:38:34Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''mi dunda do noda'' - if I give you nothing, I am not a giver.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''mi dunda do noda'' - if I give you nothing, I am not a giver.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This applies to all predicates, so to take an example from [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>camera obscura|camera obscura]], ''ta kacma fi noda'' does not mean "That is a camera with no film". It means "There is nothing which is-the-film-of that", which applies better to a tree than a camera.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This applies to all predicates, so to take an example from [[camera obscura|camera obscura]], ''ta kacma fi noda'' does not mean "That is a camera with no film". It means "There is nothing which is-the-film-of that", which applies better to a tree than a camera.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A corollary to this is that ''zo'e'' never means ''noda'', a fact we have already encountered in the [[jbocre: botpi|botpi]] discussion.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A corollary to this is that ''zo'e'' never means ''noda'', a fact we have already encountered in the [[jbocre: botpi|botpi]] discussion.</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=75698&oldid=prevGleki at 17:06, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:06:17Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:06, 4 November 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You can get </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lojban podcast, jbocradi, at: [[jbocre: h|http://nemorathwald</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">com/aboutlojban]] (</del>there<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'s a complete mirror </del>at <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[jbocre: h|http://florolf</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">devbraindump</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">de/fud/lojbo/jbocradi]])</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Be careful when using ''noda'' in </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">place structure of a predicate</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">It does not simply mean "nothing"; it means that </ins>there <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">is nothing </ins>at <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">all which could make the predicate true</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This is important - ''noda'' implies that the predicate is '''false'''</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Here are links to transcripts of all Lojban podcasts so far. Where there is not a transcript, please assist the Lojban community by transcribing an episode!</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Some examples:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">September 17 2005: [[jbocre: jbocradi pamo</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">o|jbocradi pamo</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">o]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">noda dunda do pa rupnu'' - if nobody gives you a dollar, then there is no giving going on, and no action occurring that could be described as ''dunda''.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">October 1 2005: [[jbocre: jbocradi remo</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">o|jbocradi remo</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">o]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mi dunda noda pa rupnu'' - if I give nobody a dollar, I am not a giver. I am a giver-of-a-dollar-to-nobody (''lo dunda be noda bei pa rupnu''), but certainly not an actual giver (''lo dunda'').</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">December 30 2005</del>: [[jbocre: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocradi cimo</del>'o|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocradi cimo</del>'o]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''mi dunda do noda'' - if I give you nothing, I am not a giver.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Forthcoming January episode</del>: [[jbocre: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocradi vomo</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">o</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocradi vomo</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">o</del>]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This applies to all predicates, so to take an example from [[jbocre</ins>: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">camera obscura|camera obscura]], ''ta kacma fi noda'' does not mean "That is a camera with no film". It means "There is nothing which is-the-film-of that", which applies better to a tree than a camera.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A corollary to this is that ''zo'e'' never means ''noda'', a fact we have already encountered in the </ins>[[jbocre: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">botpi|botpi]] discussion.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A phrase for "nothing" which keeps the predicate true is ''lo nomei''. This means that, whatever objects fit in that place, zero of them are actually doing it. So ''lo kacma be fi lo nomei'' could describe a camera with no film, because there are things which film a camera; but it does not describe a tree, because there is nothing which films a tree.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''e</ins>'o <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ko su'oroi ciksi tu'a le nibli be le du'u lo'u noda le'u frica lo'u lo 0mei le'u .i mi'e [[User:xod</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">xod]]''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The critical point is that the scope of ''da'' is always the universe, while the scope of the bridi is determined by its tense, which is usually at least partly vague. So ''noda'' means "nothing in the universe, not even something outside the scope of the bridi". ''nomei'' does not have universal scope, but vague scope like any other untensed selbri; it is saying only "a group of zero things in my scope". It's a subtle point, and not explained above.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">To expand a bit: If you hear ''mi klama lo zdani'' you will normally assume, unless there's a reason otherwise, that ''klama'' and ''zdani'' have the same tense; you don't usually expect it to mean ''mi ca ca'o klama lo ca ba'o zdani''. The same holds for ''mi klama lo nomei''; if the understood tense is ''ca ca'o'' then perhaps you do ''klama'' something at another time, merely not ''ca ca</ins>'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''. But in ''mi klama noda'', the ''noda'' means nothing, ever, anywhere,''ze'eca fe'eroroi nomei'', because ''da'' is existential. (Maybe next year I will be able to say this in Lojban.) ''mi'e [[jbocre: jezrax|jezrax</ins>]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I'm not sure I would put it that way. ''mi klama noda'' to me means that it is not the case that I go somewhere, it has no insistence on any absolute. If I don't go now, I'm not a goer now, but I may have gone in the past, that's up to context. ''mi klama noda'' is exactly equivalent to ''mi klama naku su'oda'', which in turn is ''mi na klama da''. This is very similar in English: I go nowhere = I don't go anywhere. The difference with English is more noticeable with "nouns", a distinction which Lojban does not make. ''ta kacma noda'' does not mean that ''ta'' is really a ''kacma'' of some kind or another, it says that ''ta'' does not ''kacma'' anything, so is no ''kacma''. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' is different because ''lo nomei'' is "at least one zero-some". What is a "zero-some"? I don't know for sure, it depends on context, it is in fact ''lo nomei be zo'e'', "a zero-some of something", so there can be different zero-somes. ''ta kacma lo nomei'' says that ''ta'' does ''kacma'' at least one zero-some, so it is in fact a ''kacma''. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''Great. We're reduced to metaphysical distinctions between the empty-set and nonexistence. (Does the nonexistence of the empty-set really exist?) But side-stepping the universal scope of da, which I also don't quite agree with, when ''mi klama noda'', then ''lo'i selka'a be mi'' is empty; so in a sense I really did ''klama lo nomei''. Take another shot at describing this alleged distinction. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''lo nomei'' is admittedly a contrived concept, but it is in any case a ''su'o da'', so clearly incompatible with ''no da''. But ''no da'' is crystal clear, it contains a negation, it is logically equivalent to ''naku su'o da'', so it is hard to understand how ''da poi broda node cu broda'' can be defended. It could only work if you use different implicit tenses with each broda, but that's tantamount to cheating (similar to switching implicit velju'o midsentence!). The logic of this: <<''when ''mi klama noda'', then ''lo'i selka'a be mi'' is empty; so in a sense I really did ''klama lo nomei'' ''>> escapes me. In what sense? If ''mi patfu noda'', then ''lo'i selpatfu be mi'' is empty, so in a sense I really am a father? --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''Sure, you're a father of zero children; a father of nothing. "Nothing" is how I render ''nomei'', the empty-set. And no, ''nomei'' is not ''su'oda''. Anyway, it's up to you folks to show me the difference between being a father of 0 kids, and being a non-father. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I ([[jbocre</ins>: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">rab.spir|(rab.spir]]) am not sure that the idea of ''lo nomei'' really works, but I thought I would include it on this page because it seems more useful than ''zi'o''. Whether or not ''lo nomei'' works, it is still clear that ''noda'' is a negation of the bridi.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''For zi'o to be useful it should go beyond the trivial ''noda''; it should mean, in this case, that the concept of fatherhood doesn't apply at all here. Mules are ''patfu zi'o'', as well as being ''patfu noda''. And yes, I realize that the above example says that you sired the empty-set, which, if taken obnoxiously, is just as silly as claiming responsibility for having sired any other mathematical entity. So let's not get that literal, preferring instead to interpret it in the way it was intended. I saw this attack coming and decided to stub it out pre-emptively. --[[User:xod|xod]]''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* You're just being paranoid, then, because {nomei} isn't a set. It is a group of zero somethings. The empty set would be {lu'i lo nomei}. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** Hmmm... I would say that ''lu'i lo nomei'' is a set with at least one zero-some as an element. ''lu'i ci lo nomei'' is a set with three zero-somes as elements. ''lu'i noda'' is the empty set, i.e. the set with no elements. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Here's another word for nothing: ''nonlai''. This covers ''lo rupnu be li no'', ''lo mitre be li no'', etc. -</ins>[[jbocre: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Pierre Abbat|phma]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If ''da'' is already bound, ''noda'' does not have the meaning discussed above. ''da prami noda'' is true, for example. ''mi</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e [[jbocre: jezrax</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jezrax]]'</ins>'</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This [[jbocre: existential requantification|existential requantification</ins>]] <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">earned a long discussion.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">zo'o noda vamji levisu'u casnu</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=noda&diff=65150&oldid=prevGleki at 17:02, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:02:18Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
You can get the Lojban podcast, jbocradi, at: [[jbocre: h|http://nemorathwald.com/aboutlojban]] (there's a complete mirror at [[jbocre: h|http://florolf.devbraindump.de/fud/lojbo/jbocradi]])<br />
<br />
Here are links to transcripts of all Lojban podcasts so far. Where there is not a transcript, please assist the Lojban community by transcribing an episode!<br />
<br />
* September 17 2005: [[jbocre: jbocradi pamo'o|jbocradi pamo'o]]<br />
* October 1 2005: [[jbocre: jbocradi remo'o|jbocradi remo'o]]<br />
<br />
* December 30 2005: [[jbocre: jbocradi cimo'o|jbocradi cimo'o]]<br />
* Forthcoming January episode: [[jbocre: jbocradi vomo'o|jbocradi vomo'o]]</div>Gleki