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| == Section 2.1 ==
| | .iju'a da poi nalfrinu ku'o de poi nalfrinu ku'o di poi frinu ku'o zo'u di tenfa da de |
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| * lu .ue sai y xu sfasa su'o da lo nu punji ra ti li'u ju'e
| | .i la'e di'u jalge la'e di'e |
| ** Should be "nu sfasa", I think.
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| * {ni'o py nergau lo tolcitno je mudri vorme .i sy viska lo jinme nerklaji poi li'a citno}
| | .i le seltenfa be li re bei li re be'o goi ko'a cu nalfrinu |
| ** jinme nerklaji? klaji laj street 'avenue' x1 is a street/avenue/lane/drive/cul-de-sac/way/alley/[[jbocre: road|road]] at x2 accessing x3
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| * {.i lo nenri vorme cu jinme gi'e za'a tsali}
| | .i le tenfa be ko'a bei ko'a be'o goi fo'a cu frinu jonai nalfrinu |
| ** Maybe, {vrogai} or {vrobi'u}?
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| * {.i .u'u mi lo ka xanka cu dukse lo nu citka djica}
| | .i da'i fo'a cu frinu .inaja lo frinu no'u fo'a cu tenfa lo nalfrinu no'u ko'a lo nalfrinu no'u ko'a |
| ** If this means "Sorry, but my nervousness is more than my hunger", {dukse} doesn't work here. Don't know what does.
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| * {gi'e kajde lo nu catra da poi na jundi ri}
| | .i li re tenfa fo'a ko'a ki'u le du'u li vei ny te'a my ve'o te'a sy du li ny te'a vei my pi'i sy ve'o |
| ** fi lo nu
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| * {.e'u ma'a xruti le sanmi kumfa}
| | .i da'i fo'a cu nalfrinu inaja lo frinu no'u li re cu tenfa lo nalfrinu no'u fo'a lo nalfrinu no'u ko'a |
| ** fi le
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| * {gi'e kajde lo nu catra da poi na jundi ri}
| | .ija'o da poi nalfrinu ku'o de poi nalfrinu ku'o di poi frinu ku'o zo'u di tenfa da de |
| ** fi lo nu
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| * {.e'u ma'a xruti le sanmi kumfa}
| | ----- |
| ** fi le
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| * {.i ji'a ry sanli gi'e skaci ke midju polgau se pi'o lo xanri skaci gi'e ckire cuksu fi dy}
| | from a while ago: |
| ** s/cuksu/cusku/ What does the first part mean, anyway? ry imitates a Middle Polynesian using an imaginary skirt?
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| * {.i ku'i mi kanpe lo nu do na se spaji}
| | noda zo'u ge da numcu gi node numcu gi'e balzma da |
| ** kanpe ki'a
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| == Section 2.2 ==
| | i ni'ibo fu'e da'i ge da no'u xy numcu gi node balzma xy |
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| * ni'o loi ci prenu cu casnu lo na vajni ca'o lo nu xruti le sanmi kumfa
| | .i ku'i rodi ganai di numcu gi le sumji be di bei li pa cu numcu |
| ** {xruti fi le sanmi kumfa}
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| * {.i sy zgana lo nu le flira be py cu na'e gleki binxo gi'e rivbi dy} "rivbi riv avoid 'evade' x1 avoids/evades/shuns/escapes/skirts [[jbocre: fate|fate]] x2 (event)"
| | .iseni'ibo le sumji be xy bei li pa cu numcu |
| ** So {tu'a dy}?
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| * s/sabju/sabji/
| | .i ji'a rodi zo'u le sumji be di bei li pa cu balzma di |
| * {.i sy cuksu lu mi ka'e}
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| ** s/cuksu/cusku/
| | .iseni'ibo le sumji be xy bei li pa cu balzma xy |
| * {.i ji'a ry sanli gi'e skaci ke midju polgau se pi'o lo xanri skaci gi'e ckire cuslu fi dy}
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| ** s/cuslu/cusku/ ?
| | .iseni'ibo di no'u le sumji be xy bei li pa zo'u ge di numcu gi di balzma xy |
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| <pre>
| | .i ku'i la'edi'u natfe le se sruma |
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| > > {ei} shows how the speaker feels things ought to be, not an
| | .iseni'ibo da'inai fu'o noda zo'u ge da numcu gi node balzma da .i di'u nibli se jarco |
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| > > oblgation by the speaker.
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| >
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| > Erm, how do you figure that?
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| Usage, usefulness, consistency, and even CLL supports that
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| interpretation.
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| Usage: that's how I've always used it and that's how I've seen
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| it used too:
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| <Taliesin> do .ei ciska bau la lojban
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| <xod> .ei su'odo rivbi le nu penmi .oi
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| <xod> .ei la tsali cu fanva
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| <zef> ei zo te basti zo to di'u
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| Usefulness: The feeling of obligation on the part of the
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| speaker corresponds to the feeling of how things ought to be
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| when the speaker is the agent, so it is a more restricted
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| sense. There is not much point in restricting {ei} to sentences
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| where {mi} is the agent.
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| Consistency: the whole e-series of attitudinals is used for
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| attitudes of the speaker towards a hypothetical situation.
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| CLL has two examples with {.ei}. The first one is funny:
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| 3.10) .ei mi tisna
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| le karce ctilyvau
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| [[jbocre: obligation|obligation]] I fill
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| the car-type-of petroleum-container.
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| I should fill the car's gas tank.
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| It is not decisive because {mi} is the agent, although the
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| English translation is wrong. It really should be "I should
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| become stuffed with the car's gas tank". (To be fair, I think
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| the place structure of {tisna} was changed at some point.)
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| But the other example:
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| 11.5) pe'i la kartagos. .ei se daspo
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| [[jbocre: I opine!|I opine!]] Carthage [[jbocre: obligation|obligation]] is-destroyed.
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| In my opinion, Carthage should be destroyed.
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| clearly shows that {.ei} is about how the speaker feels things
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| ought to be.
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| mu'o mi'e xorxes
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| </pre>
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| == Section 2.3 ==
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| * to'u nai jai se srera fai pa valsi po lo ro moi jufra po lo pa moi jufmei po lo 2 pi 3 pi'e 2 moi se fendi i mi stidi lo nu zo marxa cu basti zo maxra
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| * {pa cnebo jinsi jadni sy .i le jinsi}
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| ** jinsi ki'a
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| * s/cuksu/cusku/
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| * s/maxra/marxa/
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| <pre>
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| > > > fe lu .oi do pu kakne lo nu jdegau mi tu'a le janco
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| > >
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| > > s/jdegau/kajde
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| >
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| > Nope. kajde is non-agentive.
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| {jdegau fi mi fo tu'a le janco} then?
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| > > > .i zo'o nai mi ca ponse pa barda ke skapi ciblu
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| > >
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| > > I think this is pilka more than skapi.
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| > > skapi is the material, it is the pilka once
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| > > it has been removed from the animal.
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| >
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| > I disagree. skapi need not have been removed, and pilka includes
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| > fruit rinds and so on. I'm going to ask the archivists about this.
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| I certainly don't dispute {pilka} includes fruit rinds and tree bark.
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| There are many body-parts that work both for animals and plants.
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| {pilka} is clearly a part-whole relationship.
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| {skapi}, on the other hand, is a product-source relationship, like
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| {silka} and {sunla}. I think gismu place structures should be much
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| more regular than what they are, but in some cases there are very
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| clear classes of place structures, like specimen-species, part-whole,
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| substance-composition, substance-source. {pilka} is clearly
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| part-whole and {skapi} is clearly substance-source.
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| (I'm not exactly sure what to make of Lojbab's response on this.)
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| </pre>
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| Section 2.4
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| <pre>
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| > > > .i ji'a xy rinka so'u da poi xlali
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| > >
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| > > I read this as "also, it causes a few bad things", and was
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| > > expecting to be told what they were. I think what D might
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| > > have meant is that it doesn't cause any important bad thing?
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| >
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| > s/so'u/pi so'u roi/
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| A fraction of an occasion?
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| > > > lo ni sy certu cu banzu lo nu na birti fa lo nu lo kalte cu
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| > > > mrobi'i
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| > >
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| > > s/mrobi'i/mrobi'o
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| > >
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| > > I don't understand the sentence though. Susan's skill was
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| > > enough to not be certain of a hunter's death?
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| >
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| > Yes. "She's good enough that it's not a certainly that she'll get
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| > one of us killed".
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| >
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| > s/birti/ju'o gasnu/; see if that helps.
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| Hmm, ok. The {fa} is wrong though.
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| > > > .i ku'i ca zi bo ky nergau le citka kumfa to ri vasru vy jo'u sy
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| > > > toi
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| > >
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| > > I think we already knew that V and S were in the room.
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| >
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| > No, we had no idea what room they were in.
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| ...
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| > The goal was: "K entered the dining room, where d & s were".
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| I see. I would have said {noi vy jo'u sy zvati ke'a}, but I guess
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| your phrase is not wrong.
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| > > You seem to use {diklo} a lot, I don't really know what it means.
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| >
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| > x1 is near to x2 within possible range x3
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| Similar to {jibni} then? But the gi'uste uses "locus". If you look
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| at all the definitions that use that word you get a different idea.
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| > > > .i re makcu remna cu tcetce terpa lo nu lo fagri [[jbocre: ...|...]] cu jibni
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| > > > vo'a? gi'e jbini le makcu bi'i le verba
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| >
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| > What does vo'a bind to there? Do we even know?
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| {re makcu prena} supposedly.
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| > > Otherwise we get the fire between between the adults and the
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| > > child.
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| >
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| > Erm, *yes*. That's the point. The child is causing fire to project
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| > from emself towards the parents.
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| "between between"?
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| My point is that {jbini ko'a bi'i ko'e}, with the duplicated "between",
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| is strange. It's {jbini ko'a jo'u ko'e} or {zvati ko'a bi'i ko'e}.
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| > > > ni'o .a'o cai sy ca'o na bajra gi'e ku'i jgari pa makcu gi'e
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| > > > lacpu ri fa'a lo vomre
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| > >
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| > > s/vomre/vorme
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| > >
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| > > "Hopefully, S is not running but grabbing one adult and pulling
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| > > them towards the door"??
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| >
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| > "with great hope" was the goal. i.e. she's scared out of her mind
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| > but trying anyways.
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| That's not my understanding of how {a'o} works.
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| > > > ni'o sy za'u re'u zgana lo nu lo blupinxe cu ka'e sezymuvgau? se
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| > > > kai lo mutce mutce sutra
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| > >
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| > > s/sezymuvgau/muvdu
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| >
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| > Erm, no. muvdu is not agentive.
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| It's not non-agentive either. It's neutral in that respect.
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| I can understand using {sezmuvgau} when it is for some reason
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| important to emphasize the agentiveness, but not every time.
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| Why don't you say {sezklagau} for explicitly agentive {klama},
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| or {sezvi'egau} for explicitly agentive {vitke}, or {sezypipygau}
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| for explicitly agentive {plipe}, etc.
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| Anyway, that's just a minor point of style. (You don't need the
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| y-hyphen BTW.)
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| On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 07:32:46AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:
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| >
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| > > > > .i se ki'u bo ko fargau? le cribe gi'e klama le rirni gi'e
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| > > > > xenru cusku
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| > > >
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| > > > s/fargau/cliva ?
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| > >
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| > > I just didn't know if I needed a y in fargau.
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| >
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| > Oh, you probably meant {dargau} then. {fargau} is from {farna
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| > gasnu}.
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| Oh, no, I meant *bargau*.
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| > You only need a y-hyphen after {r} in {ryr}, every other consonant
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| > is ok after {r}.
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| Cool.
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| > > I want him to be chanting truth tables; suggestions *very*
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| > > welcome.
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| >
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| > You mean you want to express logical notation in plain language?
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| More or less, yes.
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| > The problem is that in Lojban plain language and logical notation
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| > are one and the same (or very close).
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| True, but you still need to be able to say "the cmava .e behaves in
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| [[jbocre: this|this]] fashion" in Lojban, or we have an incomplete language.
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| > {bu'a i ja bu'e} entails, well, {ga bu'a gi bu'e}. You could say
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| > {lo du'u ga bu'a gi bu'e cu nibli lo du'u ga lo du'u bu'a cu jetnu
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| > gi lo du'u bu'e cu jetnu}, but that's like saying {lo du'u bu'a cu
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| > nibli lo du'u lo du'u bu'a cu jetnu}, it's not really related to
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| > truth tables.
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| As long as it's hyper-logical, it fits the story, but that's not
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| really what I was looking for, no. I suppose a Lojban definition of
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| .a that never uses a logical connective would be about right.
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| > > > > .i ji'a le barda ke vlagi ctebi cu tunlo gi'e xunre
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| > > > ...
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| > > > > .i le pinji cu pu tunlo je ke mutce jdari ke'e binxo
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| > > >
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| > > > tunlo ma?
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| > >
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| > > punli again. "swollen"
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| >
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| > I think you forgot to change one of them. But {punli} sounds too
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| > permanent for this. Maybe {se preja}?
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| Good idea.
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| -Robin
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| > > > > > .i se ki'u bo ko fargau? le cribe gi'e klama le rirni gi'e
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| > > > > > xenru cusku
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| > > > >
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| > > > > s/fargau/cliva ?
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| > > >
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| > > > I just didn't know if I needed a y in fargau.
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| > >
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| > > Oh, you probably meant {dargau} then. {fargau} is from {farna
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| > > gasnu}.
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| >
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| > Oh, no, I meant *bargau*.
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| Make the bear be on the outside of what?
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| > > The problem is that in Lojban plain language and logical notation
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| > > are one and the same (or very close).
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| >
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| > True, but you still need to be able to say "the cmava .e behaves in
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| > [[jbocre: this|this]] fashion" in Lojban, or we have an incomplete language.
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| I wrote a definition for {.e} in jbovlaste using {kanxe}.
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| All logical connectives are in a logical sense bridi connectives. The
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| sumti connectives are just an abbreviated form {ko'a V ko'e broda}
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| = {gV ko'a broda gi ko'e broda}, but that is independent of the truth
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| tables.
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| > I suppose a Lojban definition of
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| > .a that never uses a logical connective would be about right.
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| It would have to be in terms of {vlina}. I wrote one
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| in jbovlaste, which can probably be improved.
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| mu'o mi'e xorxes
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| </pre>
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| == Section 2.5 ==
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| <pre>
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| > Yes, but *normally* things consist of more than their minds; this
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| > one does not.
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| >
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| > How about:
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| >
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| > .i lo nu lo menli be la ctino po'u la ctino cu se daspo cu mintu
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| > lonu ri se daspo
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| s/po'u/no'u and I'll buy it.
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| mu'o mi'e xorxes
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| </pre>
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| * .i se ki'u bo sy pilno lo ckana poi vy facki va'u sy gi'e ba zi sipna
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| ** s/va'u/se va'u/
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