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==  Minutes of the 1997 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. ==
mi'e [[tinkit|tinkit]] just an idea i've had that if we make a language that is not restrained at all by letters and verbalization, but rather is specified numerically, much like computer machine code.


The ninth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was called to order on August 3, 1997 at 10:45 AM EDT.
----


Non-members in attendance at the annual meeting were:
Go ahead and do it, then!  (Just don't call it Lojban.)


* Mark Shoulson voted in as member during the meeting, proxy to Karen Stein after he left at 2:13.
''ok i'll call it 1010110101 .u'i --[[tinkit|tinkit]]''


Roll call was taken of the members.
Quoted without permission from [http://www3.aa.tufs.ac.jp/~mshuji/CNET/china01.txt]:


Members attending (7) were:
Anyway, telegram operators were so skilled that they were known to


* Dave Barton
chat using 4 digit numerals with each other, in front of the nosy eyes of
* John Cowan


* John Hodges
guess-whos. You could eavesdrop onto a not very philosophical dialogue
* Nora LeChevalier


* Robert (Bob) LeChevalier
between two buddies, Misters Gao and Sima.
* David Young


* Karen Stein
S: (slapping G on the back) "3674,2998,6745,2007,6683,0123!"


Members "present" (6) by proxy:
G: (Apologetically..) "1322,1322,6453,0851,9052....."


* Athelstan proxy to Bob LeChevalier
S: (Chuckling) "4390,2391,3255,0038,1091."
* Colin Fine* proxy to Bob LeChevalier


* Jorge Llambias proxy to Bob LeChevalier
Both: "4598,3411,4598,3411!" (Giggling wildly... no codes available).
* Nick Nicholas proxy to Bob LeChevalier


* Veijo Vilva proxy to Bob LeChevalier
-mi'e [[User:tsali|tsali]]
* David Twery proxy to Nora LeChevalier


* Tommy Whitlock proxy to John Cowan
----


(* = Didn't arrive until after the meeting, due to the vagaries of E-mail, even though sent before)
I'd have to look it up again, but I recall something similar to that from way back in the 1600s(!) by a man named Lodowick... Argh, it's not in my head anymore.  I have to find the book I had, and it's packed in some box someplace.  Basically a Dewey Decimal System for ideas that are words.  The conlang [[Ro|Ro]] had a similar notion, though based on sounds and not explicitly numbers, and there was some of that in Babm too.  I think EmSighAy actually did use numbers, and was all mathematically defined.  ''--mi'e mark''


Members not in attendance (3) were:
----


* John Clifford
''Can language be specified purely numerically?''
* Guy Garnett


* Sylvia Rutiser Rissel
47 65 65 2c 20 49 20 64 6f 6e 27 74 20 6b 6e 6f 77 2e


No proper notice of meeting by Secretary/Treasurer was given (per Article 3, Section 4 of the Bylaws)., therefore no bylaw amendments may be made.
ru'a that's ASCII code.  totally different--the language is created for human pronunciation and translated to numbers. this would be created to be encoded in numbers, and pronounced like "panopanononopanonopanopapano" .u'i --''mi'e [[tinkit|tinkit]]''


Reading of the Minutes:
your string of "pa"s and "no"s contains exactly 12 bits of information if I could correctly. the phrase "wooly wild weasel" (half as many syllables) contains about 4 times as many bits of information. (google for information theory) what use is something with an information density 1/8th of normal languages? ru'a no te pilno --jay


* MOVED:  To waive reading of minutes. - PASSED. Report of officers - President:
*the object wouldn't be high density of information--otherwise the rules could get very complicated. just the chance to see how language issues are treated when human pronunciation is not an issue at all.


* Text book:  not much done
----
* Dictionary:  not much done


* Reference Grammar: DONE!
(mi'e [[keidarien|keidarien]]) Since Lojban has digits for hexadecimal, saying binary isn't really that sparse. But still, it's kind of like saying "four seven six five six five two cee ..." rather than "onezerozerozerooneonezerooneonezeroonezeroone...". Speaking binary is just silly, and not terribly useful.  After all, one of Lojban's great strengths is that it uses (almost) all the sounds a human mouth can make in a very efficient manner.
* Organizational matters: almost totally ignored.  Some checks ($750) cashed.


* Donations for publication:  $1100 so far.
It may be useful to use this kind of binary lojban for natural-language compression.  The difficulty then is that lojban words are designed around the 26 character alphabet (a to z, except hqw, adding '.,) and there's no simple mapping from one to the other.
* Non-responding members from last year: Jorge Llambias, Sylvia Rissel, Karen Stein.


* MOVED: To congratulate President for typesetting book. - PASSED by acclamation.
----
* MOVED: To congratulate Author. - PASSED by acclamation.


Report of Committees:
http://www.invisiblelighthouse.com/langlab/ulingkod.html


Proposal for funding (for books): no progress.
----


Copyright: phrasing works.
What is this good for?? Okay, for communication between machines! This is what computers are all based on. Yet, never between men, albeit there's a special goal e.g. encryption! Think of WWII Navajo Code Talkers: Here, generally, each Navajo word was to give only one single letter (i.e. the first one of the words equivalent in English). Principally, a bad density ratio (yet, there also were shortcuts).


Finance Committee: About $20, per president.
* Ok, great idea, but there's a difference here: Navajo Code Talkers worked because Navajo was a totally obsurce language, not a normal encryption like had been previously used.  (Not that Lojban isn't totally obscure...)  Btw, the Navajo Code Talkers didn't use a word-to-letter mapping, (does navajo even use a-z?) they had word-to-word, for example, a "turtle" meant "Tank", "Big Man" meant "the President", and lots others.  I think they used regualar Navajo words for normal stuff, but again, the reason this worked it because the Japanese didn't have a clue about Navajo. --[[keidarien|keidarien]]
**Navajo has a-z (I forget what letters are actually in use) and some additional items for peculiarly Navajo (Dine') sounds. That is all by the way; the characterization of Code Talkers is correct.


Consideration of new members:
***As mentioned, they used a word-to-letter mapping - and lots of shortcuts (word-to-word mapping): have a look here [http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-4.htm] - and BTW, there was no need for having letters like in English because they actually used the English equivalent words initials ;-)
 
* MOVED: That Mark Shoulson be accepted as a new member. - PASSED unanimously.
 
Election of Board of Directors:
 
* MOVED: To re-elect all present board members. - AMENDED.
* AMENDED MOTION: To re-elect all present board members sans Tommy Whitlock, plus David Barton. - PASSED.
 
Old/Unfinished Business:
 
Report on Robert LeChevalier's 2 directives:
 
# Baseline content of reference grammar as of December 31, 1996: Deadline not met.  It was baselined January 9, 1997.
 
# Baseline dictionary as of June 30, 1996: Deadline not meet. Conferred with board because nothing done on dictionary.  Therefore put off for the meeting (but, 2 objections).
 
New Business:
 
Unresponding members:
 
* MOVED: To reconsider action on non-responding members. Discussion: 4 non-present & unproxied.  Considered impact: Sylvia Rissel is the only one who can be removed because last year proper notice was not sent.
 
* MOVED: To table temporarily - PASSED.
 
First Millennial Foundation (for colonizing space):
 
Dave Barton is recommending Lojban and wishes to use some document or excerpt to publish in its house organ.  It was agreed that he can do this provided it is mentioned that LLG does not, as an organization, specifically endorse the First Millennial Foundation.
 
Pricing and marketing of existing book:
 
Discussion of markets:
 
* Lojban community:  many feel about $30-$40 would be good.
* Potential discounts for JL subscribers, who have effectively loaned the Group their money all this time), and donators of at least some lower-limit amount.
 
* Academia: linguists, libraries (which expect 20% off cover price).
* Bookstores (expect 20% off, 40% for big stores)
 
* Distributors (expect 35%-50% off)
 
Suggestions:
 
* Sell at conventions - on consignment, at talks.
* Promote donations to local libraries or clubs.
 
Standard recommended in industry for cover price is 7-8 times printing price, $3 per book for order fulfillment.
 
Royalty?
 
Multiply in-organization distribution sites may be a possibility.
 
Printer prices (estimated):
 
Technographics:
 
* 800 pages at 6x9 = $10,000 for 1,000
* 600 pages at 10x7 = $12,000 for 1,000
 
* 600 pages at 81/2x11 = $14,000 for 1,000
* new press next month will handle larger page count, and they believe the price will be comparable to the $10,000. $8-$14 cost per copy x 7 = $56 - $98 cover price.
 
Committee to investigate and/or implement on-line ordering: Mark Shoulson chairman.
 
* MOVED: That list price of book be $50; prepaid orders postmarked by September 30, 1997 be $35; other paid orders postmarked through March 31 be $40. - AMENDED.
* AMENDMENT: That list price of book be $48; prepaid orders postmarked by September 30, 1997 be $35; other paid orders postmarked through March 31 be $39. - AMENDED.
 
* AMENDMENT: That list price of book be $48; prepaid orders postmarked by September 30, 1997 be $35; other paid orders postmarked through March 31 be $39.  But, Board of Directors can extend the dates. - PASSED.
 
(Meeting recessed 12:48 - 1:30)
 
Mark Shoulson comments before leaving:
 
* Baselining:  Has been promised for too long to go back.
* Dictionary: Lujvo not ready because ad hoc.  Marking with different font is OK; forcing 2 look-ups is not OK.
 
* Marketing: Get the word out.  Groups: science-fiction, philosophy, debate, conventions.
* Prices:  Member discounts without time limit.
 
* Royalty:  Support.
* Textbook: No opinion.  Mini-lesson and diagrammed summary good. Pocket-size wordlists - good.
 
* Trinkets.
* Getting people to use: Even 3 or 4 words of Lojban in 1 simple activity is good.  Get conversations started.  Conversations on list of max of 5 lines of Lojban. Mildly recommend MU or MUSH.
 
* Print run:  1,500 reasonable at $13,000; 2,000 too much.
 
Baselines:
 
* MOVED: That LLG accept the reference grammar as submitted to the printer as the embodiment of the December 31st baseline - PASSED.
* MOVED: That, in place of the June 30th baseline, we baseline the gismu, cmavo and rafsi as of September 30; and, that the members request the President to move toward a baseline of the lujvo ASAP - AMENDED.
 
Discussion on whether (and which) lujvo to baseline.
 
* AMENDMENT: That, in place of the June 30th baseline, we baseline the gismu, cmavo and rafsi as of October 31st or a date deemed reasonable by the Board of Directors; and, that the members request the President to move toward a baseline of the lujvo ASAP - PASSED.
 
Next book:
 
* MOVED: That the next book be the little dictionary with gismu, cmavo and rafsi - AMENDED.
* AMENDMENT: Membership indicates the desire that the next book be the little dictionary with gismu, cmavo and rafsi - AMENDED.
 
* AMENDMENT: Membership indicates the desire that the next book be the little dictionary with gismu, cmavo and rafsi, EBNF grammar, YACC grammar and lujvo-making information - PASSED.
 
The 5-year baseline:
 
* MOVED: That the condition to be met for a baseline that we deem to have fulfilled our current commitment to the Lojban community be: Publishing a reference grammar, publishing a cmavo/gismu/rafsi list, a published lujvo list.  Said baseline to continue for 5 years from the latest publication date of the 3 items.  And, this should be concluded as soon as possible - PASSED unanimously.
 
The Digex bill has doubled because of all the kept data.
 
Unresponding members (untabled):
 
* MOVED: To reconsider action on non-responding members - PASSED.
* MOVED: Whereas Sylvia Rissel failed to respond to last year's proper notice of meeting by attending or giving proxy, and whereas she has not attended or given proxy for this year's meeting, and whereas extraordinary efforts to reach her during this year's meeting have been made and have failed, therefore be it resolved that Sylvia Rissel be deemed to have resigned her membership in the LLG in accordance with bylaw Article 3 Section 3 without prejudice to her restoration as a member at some future time.  LLG regrets the necessity of this action but believes that its organizational members must carry out their minimum duties to remain members. - PASSED (with 7 abstentions).
 
* MOVED:  To adjourn meeting. - PASSED.
 
The ninth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. was adjourned at approximately 3:38 PM EDT.
 
I certify that the above motions were presented to all members present for discussion and approval, and that all motions were approved as noted.  I further certify that these minutes are an accurate representation of the ninth Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc.
 
Nora LeChevalier
 
Secretary/Treasurer

Latest revision as of 08:24, 30 June 2014

mi'e tinkit just an idea i've had that if we make a language that is not restrained at all by letters and verbalization, but rather is specified numerically, much like computer machine code.

Go ahead and do it, then! (Just don't call it Lojban.)

ok i'll call it 1010110101 .u'i --tinkit

Quoted without permission from [1]:

Anyway, telegram operators were so skilled that they were known to

chat using 4 digit numerals with each other, in front of the nosy eyes of

guess-whos. You could eavesdrop onto a not very philosophical dialogue

between two buddies, Misters Gao and Sima.

S: (slapping G on the back) "3674,2998,6745,2007,6683,0123!"

G: (Apologetically..) "1322,1322,6453,0851,9052....."

S: (Chuckling) "4390,2391,3255,0038,1091."

Both: "4598,3411,4598,3411!" (Giggling wildly... no codes available).

-mi'e tsali

I'd have to look it up again, but I recall something similar to that from way back in the 1600s(!) by a man named Lodowick... Argh, it's not in my head anymore. I have to find the book I had, and it's packed in some box someplace. Basically a Dewey Decimal System for ideas that are words. The conlang Ro had a similar notion, though based on sounds and not explicitly numbers, and there was some of that in Babm too. I think EmSighAy actually did use numbers, and was all mathematically defined. --mi'e mark

Can language be specified purely numerically?

47 65 65 2c 20 49 20 64 6f 6e 27 74 20 6b 6e 6f 77 2e

ru'a that's ASCII code. totally different--the language is created for human pronunciation and translated to numbers. this would be created to be encoded in numbers, and pronounced like "panopanononopanonopanopapano" .u'i --mi'e tinkit

your string of "pa"s and "no"s contains exactly 12 bits of information if I could correctly. the phrase "wooly wild weasel" (half as many syllables) contains about 4 times as many bits of information. (google for information theory) what use is something with an information density 1/8th of normal languages? ru'a no te pilno --jay

  • the object wouldn't be high density of information--otherwise the rules could get very complicated. just the chance to see how language issues are treated when human pronunciation is not an issue at all.

(mi'e keidarien) Since Lojban has digits for hexadecimal, saying binary isn't really that sparse. But still, it's kind of like saying "four seven six five six five two cee ..." rather than "onezerozerozerooneonezerooneonezeroonezeroone...". Speaking binary is just silly, and not terribly useful. After all, one of Lojban's great strengths is that it uses (almost) all the sounds a human mouth can make in a very efficient manner.

It may be useful to use this kind of binary lojban for natural-language compression. The difficulty then is that lojban words are designed around the 26 character alphabet (a to z, except hqw, adding '.,) and there's no simple mapping from one to the other.

http://www.invisiblelighthouse.com/langlab/ulingkod.html

What is this good for?? Okay, for communication between machines! This is what computers are all based on. Yet, never between men, albeit there's a special goal e.g. encryption! Think of WWII Navajo Code Talkers: Here, generally, each Navajo word was to give only one single letter (i.e. the first one of the words equivalent in English). Principally, a bad density ratio (yet, there also were shortcuts).

  • Ok, great idea, but there's a difference here: Navajo Code Talkers worked because Navajo was a totally obsurce language, not a normal encryption like had been previously used. (Not that Lojban isn't totally obscure...) Btw, the Navajo Code Talkers didn't use a word-to-letter mapping, (does navajo even use a-z?) they had word-to-word, for example, a "turtle" meant "Tank", "Big Man" meant "the President", and lots others. I think they used regualar Navajo words for normal stuff, but again, the reason this worked it because the Japanese didn't have a clue about Navajo. --keidarien
    • Navajo has a-z (I forget what letters are actually in use) and some additional items for peculiarly Navajo (Dine') sounds. That is all by the way; the characterization of Code Talkers is correct.
      • As mentioned, they used a word-to-letter mapping - and lots of shortcuts (word-to-word mapping): have a look here [2] - and BTW, there was no need for having letters like in English because they actually used the English equivalent words initials ;-)
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