https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&feed=atom&action=historylogic Language Draft 1.1 - Revision history2024-03-29T15:54:53ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&diff=99286&oldid=prevConversion script: Conversion script moved page Logic Language Draft 1.1 to logic Language Draft 1.1: Converting page titles to lowercase2014-06-30T08:21:11Z<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/Logic_Language_Draft_1.1" class="mw-redirect" title="Logic Language Draft 1.1">Logic Language Draft 1.1</a> to <a href="/papri/logic_Language_Draft_1.1" title="logic Language Draft 1.1">logic Language Draft 1.1</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
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</table>Conversion scripthttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&diff=92130&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T15:24:06Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>P & Q v R (& is AND, v is OR here) is ambiguous as it stands between an alternation of a conjunction of atomic wff and an atomic wff, (P & Q) v R (Polish AKPQR -- A is OR, K AND) and a conjunction of an atomic wff and an alternation of two others: P & (Q v R), KPAQR. (Note: C (IF),A,K,E (IFF), N (NOT), and sometimes D (another version of OR), V ("some")and I (=) are not non-logical predicates in such Polish systems. P, Q, and R are 0-place predicates, wffs whose internal structure does not concern us at the moment.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>P & Q v R (& is AND, v is OR here) is ambiguous as it stands between an alternation of a conjunction of atomic wff and an atomic wff, (P & Q) v R (Polish AKPQR -- A is OR, K AND) and a conjunction of an atomic wff and an alternation of two others: P & (Q v R), KPAQR. (Note: C (IF),A,K,E (IFF), N (NOT), and sometimes D (another version of OR), V ("some")and I (=) are not non-logical predicates in such Polish systems. P, Q, and R are 0-place predicates, wffs whose internal structure does not concern us at the moment.)</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&diff=89443&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: Logic Language Draft 1.1 to Logic Language Draft 1.1 without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: L" to "L"2014-03-23T14:39:13Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_Logic_Language_Draft_1.1&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: Logic Language Draft 1.1 (page does not exist)">jbocre: Logic Language Draft 1.1</a> to <a href="/papri/Logic_Language_Draft_1.1" class="mw-redirect" title="Logic Language Draft 1.1">Logic Language Draft 1.1</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: L" to "L"</p>
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</td></tr></table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&diff=82322&oldid=prevGleki at 09:08, 9 January 20142014-01-09T09:08:30Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{jbocre/en}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>Since this is a rough draft of a paper � eventually a pamphlet � to report to the Lojban community, the author would appreciate your leaving the text as it is and entering your comments, corrections, questions, discussions and so on in the space after the solid line. Thank you. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pc}</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[pc]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*:</ins>Since this is a rough draft of a paper � eventually a pamphlet � to report to the Lojban community, the author would appreciate your leaving the text as it is and entering your comments, corrections, questions, discussions and so on in the space after the solid line. Thank you.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Lojban is said to be a logical language. The first sense in which that is true is that its grammar is � so far as possible � that of Formal Logic, Applied First Order Predicate Logic (AFOPL), to be more exact. To understand the grammar and the semantics of Lojban, then, it is useful to look at this language of logic in some detail, keeping track of how its features are reflected in Lojban.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Lojban is said to be a logical language. The first sense in which that is true is that its grammar is � so far as possible � that of Formal Logic, Applied First Order Predicate Logic (AFOPL), to be more exact. To understand the grammar and the semantics of Lojban, then, it is useful to look at this language of logic in some detail, keeping track of how its features are reflected in Lojban.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&diff=75407&oldid=prevGleki at 17:02, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:02:07Z<p></p>
<a href="https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&diff=75407&oldid=64877">Show changes</a>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=logic_Language_Draft_1.1&diff=64877&oldid=prevGleki at 16:57, 4 November 20132013-11-04T16:57:45Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
I've been thinking about the large number of different ways in [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] to say "Lojban" or something like it. I finally decided to figure out what the differences are.<br />
<br />
* la [[jbocre: About Lojban|lojban]]. - This refers to the specific language we're speaking. Any other language like [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] which is not [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] itself would not be called Lojban.<br />
* [[jbocre: lojbo|lojbo]] - Refers to anything Lojbanic. As the [[jbocre: gi'uste|gi'uste]] says, "x1 reflects [[jbocre: Loglandic|Loglandic]]/Lojbanic language/culture/nationality/community in aspect x2". So a message on the [[jbocre: jboste|jboste]] is [[jbocre: lojbo|lojbo]] even if it's in English. And if the whole Lojbanic community suddenly started speaking a different language, that language would be [[jbocre: lojbo|lojbo]], but it would not be [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]].<br />
<br />
** Yup. Hence in the [[jbocre: Lojban Anthem|Lojban Anthem]], the chorus refers to both ''le bangu'' and ''le terbau'' as ''lojbo''.<br />
** Hence the x2 of ''lojbo'': a message of the mailing list (it is '''not''' a ''liste'') would be something like ''lojbo le ka casnu [[jbocre: ce'u|ce'u]]''<br />
<br />
*** Enough people call it the [[jbocre: jboste|jboste]] that the word has acquired a meaning of its own. A [[jbocre: jboste|jboste]] does not necessarily have to be a [[jbocre: liste|liste]], because of the way lujvo work.<br />
** So doesn't that mean that [[jbocre: Loglan|Loglan]] is [[jbocre: lojbo|lojbo]] and hence counts as a ''lojbo lojbau''?<br />
<br />
*** pe'i ja'a go'i .i ke'u va'i la loglan cu lojbo lojbau .i mi'e filip.<br />
* [[jbocre: lojbau|lojbau]] - This, interestingly enough, means what the word "loglan" supposedly means in English. From the places in the [[jbocre: lujvo|lujvo]] list: "x1 is a logical language used by x2 to express/communicate x3".<br />
<br />
** If the language is used to describe/talk about a logic, then ''lojbau'' is correct. If it is used to talk about things that a logic talks about, it's a short form of ''selylojbau''. If you mean that a logic is the basis of the language, it is a ''lojyselcmubau''.<br />
*** Okay. You sort of have a point there, so say the [[jbocre: veljvo|veljvo]] is ''logji se jicmu bangu''. Neither place of ''jicmu'' provides any extra information to the places of this lujvo we're forming, so it's perfectly in accordance with [[jbocre: seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] to omit ''jicmu'', resulting in the lujvo: ''lojbau''. If you don't believe me, look at the "[[jbocre: lange'u heepdog|lange'u heepdog]]" example in the book.<br />
<br />
**** ''logji zei selcmu'' -> {j2 j1=l1 l2}, ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' -> {b1=j2 b2 b3 j1=l1 l2}. At the very least you have to add the l1 place at the end to show what logic it's based on. I suppose you could omit the l2 since it's dependent on the l1. It the last place, so it doesn't matter much anyhow.<br />
***** I wasn't talking about omitting ''logji'', but ''jicmu''. The only '''j'''-places you have are merged with other places, so omitting ''jicmu'' would not change the place structure. ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' thus has the same places as ''logji zei bangu'' = ''lojbau''.<br />
<br />
****** Similar place structure, but ''logji bangu'' would be something like {b1 b2 b3=l1 l2}. At any rate, they have different meanings, whether or not the place structures are exactly the same.<br />
*** a ''bangu fi lo logji'' could be something like those turned A's and E's that logicians use, and [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] is also a system with the same goals, so [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] is a lojbau (which is different, however, from a ''lojyselcmubau'').<br />
<br />
* la [[jbocre: loglan|loglan]]. - This either refers to the predecessor to [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]], or a sheep of some sort.<br />
** Which is also officially ''dzelojbo''.<br />
<br />
** It does not refer to a sheep; [[jbocre: cmene|cmene]] are not (reliably) analyzable.<br />
** It's not even a valid cmene as it contains the sequence ''la''.<br />
<br />
* [[jbocre: jbobau|jbobau]] - "x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3". Since the only language that is Lojbanic is [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]], ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban''. I think this is more specific when used in a [[jbocre: tanru|tanru]] than ''lojbau''. It also parallels the use of ''glibau'' in that sense.<br />
** This gives a very short way to ask if someone speaks Lojban: ''xu jbobau do''<br />
<br />
** ''jbo'' is from ''lojbo'', and since [[jbocre: Loglan|Loglan]] is ''lojbo'' this means that ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban. .a la loglan.'' However, it does now exclude [[gua\spi]], [[jbocre: Plan B|Plan B]], and [[jbocre: Liva|Liva]].<br />
* [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] may not be the only logical language (logji bangu), but it is the only Lojbanic loglan (lojbo lojbau), giving rise to the rather redundant title of this page.<br />
<br />
** Not redundant given [[jbocre: The F|Founders]] polemic ("Lojban '''is''' Loglan") --- which later generations, however, haven't paid much mind to.<br />
** Also remember that officially, lojbo includes loglan, according to my gi'uste. So it is still not the only one.<br />
<br />
--[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
Aside, I think it should be ''la lojban. '''no'u''' le lojbo lojbau''.<br />
<br />
* Perhaps. Does this mean the text on the front page of lojban.org is wrong?<br />
<br />
I'd go with ''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau noi se cmene zo lojban.'' because so far it has not managed to exclude the ''[[jbocre: Loglan zebau|Loglan zebau]]'', which is ''lojbo'' and a ''lojbau'' and thus a ''lojbo lojbau'', as well as a ''jbobau'' because it is certainly a ''bangu'' - '''''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau poi se cmene zo lojban.'''''<br />
<br />
* I'd at least say that Loglan is less [[jbocre: lojbo|lojbo]] than Lojban. Also, I maintain that ''la lojban'' = ''le jbobau''; you made an unfounded assumption that everything that is ''lojbo je bangu'' is ''jbobau''. Lujvo are not tanru. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]<br />
** There is no relation you can give between lojbo and bangu that excludes loglan. I did read your intended place structure just now - ''x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3'' still includes Loglan because ''in lojban'' lojbanic (lojbo) includes loglan. Thus loglan is a jbobau - ''.i le dzebau la rabrt.mkaivor (noi ji'a se cmene la rabrt.seriraivor. fau lenu do gleki lenu fanva le paftycmene ku ku ku) da cu jbobau'' for instance. mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]<br />
<br />
*** You can rarely exclude a certain thing from filling a place (in this case, x1) of ''any'' predicate. Sure, Loglan can ''jbobau'', just like a cat box can ''stizu''. That doesn't mean it's what I have in mind when I say ''le jbobau''.<br />
**** But you couldn't say someone was worng for interpreting ''le jbobau'' as being ''la lojban. .e la loglan.'' for this is a valid meaning of ''le jbobau''.</div>Gleki