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{{See_also|bellyfeel}}
'''lobykai''' was an incorrectly used term for denoting something  that is "Lojbanic" that is more natural to [[Lojban]], or will become so, in comparison with some alternative.


== ::'''la cmalu je xunre mapku''':: ==
If "everything in [[Lojban]] is Lojbanic", then the only criterion for style is grammatical correctness. But users often feel that one choice rather than another is preferable; and it is convenient to designate this preference by a tag which bypasses the sometimes nebulous reasons that user might provide.


=== ::sei la .djeikab. .e la .uilxelm. vu'o pe la .grim. cu finti:: ===
The [[Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis|Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis]] has a number of forms, not all of which are perhaps relevant to Lojban. Still, the emergence of a '''lobykai '''consensus might be one effect - or, alternately, the absence of such a consensus might also be construed as another.
 
* [[Lojban and Esperanto|Esperanto]], having been intended as an [[auxlang|international auxiliary language]], would seem to have as its aim an ideal transparency and culture-neutrality
::{img attId="884" heigth="500" width="500"}::
* [[Lojban and Klingon|Klingon]], which has developed its own culture or virtual culture (and who can say where pretending ends and subculture begins?) based on inferences from characters, plots, and situations from a fictional world, would seem to have as its aim the replacement of ones native culture: these are in their own way, Sapir-Whorf experiments. [[Lojban]] by its intent to be "culturally neutral", would approach the former condition. But by the uniqueness of its design, probably tends toward the condition of the latter.  It has even been called "humanly-unlearnable" - but in the context of natural [[Complex Languages and Writing Systems|languages and writing systems of much greater complexity]], this can only be seen as counter-propaganda. That is to say, as Tolkien once speculated, the stranger the language, the more it produces its own mythology.
 
For those who think it is sufficient to import trans-Lojbanic values and aesthetics into Lojbanistan without alteration, here are counter-examples:
ni’o puzuvu ku zasti fa lo pukclite je cmalu nixli goi ko’a .:i roda poi viska ko’a cu nelci ko’a .:ijeboku’i traji loka ce’u go’i kei fa lo rirmamta be ko’a be'o goi ko’e zi’e noi pu na djuno lodu’u bavla’i dunda makau le nixli .:i ko’e puzu dunda fi ko’a fe lo cmalu mapku noi xunre je demsilka .:i ki’u lodu’u ri tai xamgu mapti ko’a gi’e jai se djica ko’a fai lonu roroi se dasni kei ko’a pu co’a se cmene “lu cmalu je xunre mapku li’u”
* [[Painting elephants]]
 
==Discussion==
ni’o ca lo djedi lo mamta be ko’a pu cusku fi ko’a fe “lu ko mi klama doi la cmalu je xunre mapku .:i ti spisa be lo titnanba be'o jo'u botpi be lo vanju .:i ko bevri ti lo do rirmamta .:i ri bilma je ruble gi’e ba kanro se prali fi tu’a ti .:i ko sanji lo do ka clite .:ijebo ko rinsa ra seka’i mi .:i ko vrude tarti bu’u le pluta gi’e na cliva ri .:i lonu da’i na go’i cu se jalge lonu do farlu gi’e popygau le blaci kei .eseri'abo lonu noda ba se dunda fi le do rirmamta .:ije ca gi do nerkla lo ri zdigauku’a gi ko na fliba lonu cusku “lu xamgu li’i cerni li’u” gi’e na catlu lo nenri be ro lei kojna pare’uku li’u”
*.i ku'i le lojbo xanto cu morji le seldau .i xu xagmau
 
*[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
.:i “lu mi ba gasnu roda tai lo drani li’u” -sei la cmalu je xunre mapku cu cusku ca lonu xanjairinsa lo mamta be ko’a
**Although I must admit to some [[hardliner|hardliner]] disquiet when I see Helsem laying down the law on what is or isn't '''lobykai'''.<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9782</ref>
 
***stidi jenai xusra .i pu djica lenu tavla le sidbo
ni’o ko’e pu xabju le cicricfoi va lo cacra be li pimu to’o le numtca .:i ca gi la cmalu je xunre mapku cu nerkla le cicricfoi gi lo labno goi ko’i klama ko’a .:i ko’a na djuno lodu’u makau ni ko’i palci danlu kei gi’e na terpa ko’i
**[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
 
***.i na pante la'edi'u sa'e .i ku'i .ei ko se kadje lenu xusra ledu'u xo kaunai da zmanei de .i vi vreji lo kampu se jinvi .i lo sevzi se jinvi cu .eipe'i se tcati le cmene be se su'opa jinvi
.:i “lu xamgu do li’i djedi doi la cmalu je xunre mapku li’u”
****la .maikl.:
 
*****le mi se tcati cu xamgu su'ore mu'e febvi
.:i “lu ki’e labno li’u”
*[[adam|adam]]:
 
**.i pe'i roda lobykai gi'o lojbo i le ka ckaji cu jmina ma le smuni
.:i “lu do klama ma ca lo tai clira doi la cmalu je xunre mapku li’u”
*[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
 
**.i li'a zo steci cu se smuni .i mi na birti ledu'u zo lobykai jai se srera .i ku'i li'a zo jbosteci cu xagmau fi leni nalsre se jimpe
.:i “lu zo’e pe la rirmamta li’u”
*.i zo lobykai na toldra .i ku'i ji'a na frica zo lojbo le ka makau smuni ce'u
 
*zo jbokai cu zmadu zo lobykai le kamlobykai zo'o
.:i “lu .:ije do bevri ma ni’a lo do jisystota’u li’u”
*[[Jordan DeLong|.djorden.]]:
 
**Wouldn't [[jbozma]] be more inline with what the desired meaning of this lujvo is (that being subjectively more lojbanic)? I dunno where '''ckaji''' came from here, but it seems to have nothing to do with anything since '''lojbo''' already deals with that.
.:i “lu la rirmamta cu bilma je ruble .:ijebo mi bevri fi ri fe lo titnanba .e lo vanju .:i mi’a pu sudglajukpa ca lo prulamdei .:ijebo la’a ra ba xamgu ry gi’e zengau ry loka tsali li’u”
*'''ckaji''' doesn't change the meaning - the tanru '''lojbo ckaji''' means '''lojbo''' - but as a lujvo it is more precise. It has the meaning usage bestows on it (a la [[letting usage decide]]; this is the only true tavlykai victory in [[CLL|the reference grammar]]), so '''lobykai''' means exactly what it is used to mean above - because that's what everyone means by it.
 
** Why does '''lojbo''' need any extra precision?
.:i “lu doi la cmalu je xunre mapku lo do rirmamta cu xabju ma sa’e li’u”
***That's what everyone <u>who uses it</u> means by it. There is no way to document <u>negative</u> usage.
 
****Those who don't use it don't mean anything by it.
.:i “lu lo zdani be ry cu zvati va lo cacra be li piji’iremu bu’u le cicricfoi ni’a le ci barda ke cindu tricu .:i lo spabi’u be lo tricrkorilu demspa cu va zvati .:i ju’osai do se slabu le stuzi li’u” -sei la cmalu je xunre mapku cu cusku
*****But even those who don't use it do understand what it means, at least if they are wiki frequenters or connoisseurs of helsemy.
 
*[[User:Selckiku|la .telselkik.]]:
.:i le labno cu mensku “lu ja’o le vi pukmle je citno ba da’i kukte te batkakpa fi mi .:i ri ba se vrusi lo xagmau sai be le tolci’o ninmu .:i .ei do ticprije gi’eja’ebo kakne lonu kavbu le remei li’u”
**ca la ca'abna mi basti pilno zo jbosarxe noi jbosaxmau pe'i
 
==References==
ni’o ko’i pu ze’a cadzu co kansa la cmalu je xunre mapku gi’ebabo cusku “lu doi la cmalu je xunre mapku ko catlu sa’u lei melbi xrula noi sruri mi’o .:i .eipei do klama gi’e catlu .:ije mi krici lodu’u do na kakne lonu tirna lo tai melbi nu sanga be fa lei cipni .:i do ca’o cadzu tai lo da’i nu do klama lo ckule .:i melbi mutce bu’u le cicricfoi li’u”
<references />
 
ni’o la cmalu je xunre mapku pu kargau loi ri kanla .:ijebo ca gi ko’a viska lonu lei solgusli'i cu dansu fa’a ti fa’a ta pa’o lei tricu kei .e lonu le loldi cu se gacri loi melbi xrula gi ko’a mensku “lu va’o gi da’i mi bevri lo vifne rulbakfu la rirmamta gi ri ba se pluka mutce .:i va’o roda za’o clira .:ijebo mi ba zdazva ca lo se platu li’u” .:ije ko’a bajra co cliva le pluta fa’a le cicricfoi tezu’e lonu zvafa'i loi xrula .:i ca ro nu ko’a lebna pa zo’e kei ko’a jinvi lodu’u kakne lonu viska lo mlemau sai vi lo tordu co mlana kei gi’e bajra fa’a ra ca’o lonu zenba loka nenri le cicricfoi .:ijeku’i le labno cu bajra co sirji fa’a le zdani be la rirmamta gi’e snada’i le vrogai
 
ni’o “lu ma va zvati li’u”
 
.:i “lu la cmalu je xunre mapku .:i mi bevri fi do fe lo titnanba .e lo vanju .:i ko kargau le vorme li’u”
 
.:i “lu sa’u ko danre le ga’orga’a -sei la rirmamta cu kixsku- .:i mi ruble co dukes fi lonu sa’irbi’o li’u”
 
.:i le labno cu danre le ga’orga’a .:ijebabo le vorme cu se kargau .:i ko’i stapa co nerkla gi’e sirji klama le la rirmamta ku ckana gi’e mulno citka ko’e .:ibabo ko’i dasni loi ko’e taxfu gi’e punji lo ko’e mapku lo ko’i stedu gi’e nerkla le ko’e ckana gi’e lacpu ga’orgau lei murta
 
ni’o la cmalu je xunre mapku pu ba’o bajra co jersi lei xrula .:i ba gi ko’a ba’o jajgau so’i sai zo’e ja’e lonu ko’a na kakne lonu bevri za’u zo’e gi ko’a morji fi lo ko’a rirmamta gi’e di’a klama le zdani be ko’e .:i ko’a spaji facki lodu’u le vorme cu kalri .:i ko’a nerkla le zdigauku’a .:ijebo roda simlu loka tai cizra kei ja’e lonu ko’a mensku “lu .uesai .ii mu’i ma mi tai terpa .:i mi na’o nelci lonu zvati zo’e pe la rirmamta
 
ni’o ko’a pu kixsku “lu xamgu li’i cerni li’u” gi’eku’i se spuda fi noda
 
ni’o baku ko’a pu klama le ckana gi’e lacpu kargau lei murta .:i la rirmamta cu va vreta ca lonu le ri mapku cu gacri le ra flira kei gi’e simlu loka cizra mutce
 
.:i “lu lo barda .u'e do kerlo doi rirmamta li’u”
 
.:i “lu barda teva'u lonu tirna do li’u”
 
.:i “lu lo barda .u'e do kanla doi rirmamta li’u”
 
.:i “lu barda teva'u lonu viska do li’u”
 
.:i “lu lo barda .u'e do xance doi rirmamta li’u”
 
.:i “lu barda teva'u lonu sutyjai do li’u”
 
.:i “lu lo jenselte'a barda .u'e do moklu doi la rirmamta li’u”
 
.:i “lu barda teva'u lonu citka do li’u”
 
.:i le labno naru’e mo’u bacru ca lonu ko’i ze’i plipe fi le ckana gi’e mulno citka la cmalu je xunre mapku noi selke’i.:i co’i gi le labno cu mansa lo ko’i seldji gi ko’i xruti nerkla le ckana gi’e sipna binxo gi’e co’a sipyva’u co cladu mutce
 
ni’o lo katpre goi ko’o puzi jbili'u .:i ko’o mensku “lu le tolci’o ninmu ca’o tai cladu sipyva’u .:i .ei do facki lojei da nabmi ri li’u”
 
ni’o ko’o pu stapa co nerkla le zdigauku’a gi’e ca lonu jbikla le ckana kei viska le labno noi va vreta .:i “lu romai viku mi zvafa'i do doi ze’u pacyzu’e -sei ko’o cusku- .:i mi ba’o je ca’o kalte do ze’uku li’u”
 
ni’o ko’o pu pu’o selfargau lo ko’o jancelxa’i ca lonu co’a pensi losi’o la’a le labno ba’o citka le rirmamta .e losi’o la’aru’e cumki fa lonu ko’e ba se nurxru .:iseni’ibo seba’i lonu cecla kei ko’o cpacu lo jinci gi’e co’a kalri katna le betfu be le labno .:i ba so’u nu katna kei ko’o viska lonu le xunre mapku cu te gusni co pagre .:ijebo ba so’u seljmina nu katna kei le nixli cu bartu plipe ca lonu kixsku “lu .uo mi pu tai terpa .:i pu tai manku ne’i le xadni be le labno li’u” .:ije baku le rirmamta pu barkla ji’a ca lonu jmive gi’eku’i ja’aru’e kakne lonu vasxu .:i baku la cmalu je xunre mapku cu xruklabei so’o barda rokci .:i ko’a tisygau le xadni be le labno ra .:ijebo ca gi ko’i cikna binxo gi’e troci lonu bajra rivbi gi lei rokci cu tai tilju ja’e lonu ko’i zi sai morsi binxo farlu
 
ni’o le cimei pu gleki .:i le katpre cu kapyvi’u le labno gi’e klama lo zdani be ko’o fi’o se bevri le skapi .:i le rirmamta cu citka le titnanba gi’e pinxe le vanju noi la cmalu je xunre mapku ba’o bevri .:ije la cmalu je xunre mapku cu mensku “lu baze’e lonu mi jmive kei mi na cliva le pluta gi’e na bajra cliva fa’a le cicricfoi fi’o kansa noda va’o lonu la mamta cu kajde li’u”

Latest revision as of 07:25, 8 April 2015

See also: bellyfeel

lobykai was an incorrectly used term for denoting something that is "Lojbanic" that is more natural to Lojban, or will become so, in comparison with some alternative.

If "everything in Lojban is Lojbanic", then the only criterion for style is grammatical correctness. But users often feel that one choice rather than another is preferable; and it is convenient to designate this preference by a tag which bypasses the sometimes nebulous reasons that user might provide.

The Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis has a number of forms, not all of which are perhaps relevant to Lojban. Still, the emergence of a lobykai consensus might be one effect - or, alternately, the absence of such a consensus might also be construed as another.

  • Esperanto, having been intended as an international auxiliary language, would seem to have as its aim an ideal transparency and culture-neutrality
  • Klingon, which has developed its own culture or virtual culture (and who can say where pretending ends and subculture begins?) based on inferences from characters, plots, and situations from a fictional world, would seem to have as its aim the replacement of ones native culture: these are in their own way, Sapir-Whorf experiments. Lojban by its intent to be "culturally neutral", would approach the former condition. But by the uniqueness of its design, probably tends toward the condition of the latter. It has even been called "humanly-unlearnable" - but in the context of natural languages and writing systems of much greater complexity, this can only be seen as counter-propaganda. That is to say, as Tolkien once speculated, the stranger the language, the more it produces its own mythology.

For those who think it is sufficient to import trans-Lojbanic values and aesthetics into Lojbanistan without alteration, here are counter-examples:

Discussion

  • .i ku'i le lojbo xanto cu morji le seldau .i xu xagmau
  • nitcion:
    • Although I must admit to some hardliner disquiet when I see Helsem laying down the law on what is or isn't lobykai.[1]
      • stidi jenai xusra .i pu djica lenu tavla le sidbo
    • nitcion:
      • .i na pante la'edi'u sa'e .i ku'i .ei ko se kadje lenu xusra ledu'u xo kaunai da zmanei de .i vi vreji lo kampu se jinvi .i lo sevzi se jinvi cu .eipe'i se tcati le cmene be se su'opa jinvi
        • la .maikl.:
          • le mi se tcati cu xamgu su'ore mu'e febvi
  • adam:
    • .i pe'i roda lobykai gi'o lojbo i le ka ckaji cu jmina ma le smuni
  • nitcion:
    • .i li'a zo steci cu se smuni .i mi na birti ledu'u zo lobykai jai se srera .i ku'i li'a zo jbosteci cu xagmau fi leni nalsre se jimpe
  • .i zo lobykai na toldra .i ku'i ji'a na frica zo lojbo le ka makau smuni ce'u
  • zo jbokai cu zmadu zo lobykai le kamlobykai zo'o
  • .djorden.:
    • Wouldn't jbozma be more inline with what the desired meaning of this lujvo is (that being subjectively more lojbanic)? I dunno where ckaji came from here, but it seems to have nothing to do with anything since lojbo already deals with that.
  • ckaji doesn't change the meaning - the tanru lojbo ckaji means lojbo - but as a lujvo it is more precise. It has the meaning usage bestows on it (a la letting usage decide; this is the only true tavlykai victory in the reference grammar), so lobykai means exactly what it is used to mean above - because that's what everyone means by it.
    • Why does lojbo need any extra precision?
      • That's what everyone who uses it means by it. There is no way to document negative usage.
        • Those who don't use it don't mean anything by it.
          • But even those who don't use it do understand what it means, at least if they are wiki frequenters or connoisseurs of helsemy.
  • la .telselkik.:
    • ca la ca'abna mi basti pilno zo jbosarxe noi jbosaxmau pe'i

References