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Here's the Jeeg and Talen anecdote as printed in [[jbocre: The Loglanist L|The Loglanist L]] 4:4, pp. 169,171-73.  It's in pre-[[jbocre: GMR|GMR]] [[jbocre: Loglan|Loglan]].  Translators to Lojban are invited, and I will be
== Intro Errata ==


glad to help!
==== Completed ====


=== LO CORTA GE LOGLA STUCI CA VIRSA ===
* There should be a dot in the title after ''lojban'' -- And
*''It may be used in conjunction with, or instead of, the introductory lessons available separately. ''. I don't know about that 'instead of' part.  -- Robin


Mi pa vetfa levi ja cmima stuci jo.
**Annulled
*''le cmacku cu se pagbu lo cimei'' It should be: ''le cmacku cu se pagbu cida''. Unless you mean that a threesome is part of the booklet, but that's not what the English says. (Also, I would prefer ''ckucma'' for booklet.) --xorxes


To ba pa gandi.  I ne le tora pa nu namci li Djig lu. Ice le norsa pa nu namci li Talen lu(1). I le gandi pia traci lo Rara gi duo be ji lepo lo gandi pa traci(2).  I do durdu cansivdu.  I la Djig cutse li Nu jimta Talen lu(3).  I levi po jimta pa fu stari la Talen gi numoi lepo da djano lepo da bisti djimi la Djig gi nanobi(4).  Imoi da kuncu li Ue ei tu sui rardjano(5) lu.
**I wouldn't. But correct on cimei.
*''lo prosa poi casnu le bauske cuntu'' Perhaps just ''lo prosa be le bauske cuntu''. --xorxes


Nau eu la Talen fea(6) rardjano kie tiu nu snola lepo da nu plipu li sui lu kiu.  Isoa kia no da cnida lepo kuncu gi nusoa lepo da bisti djano le nu retcu.
*''le 3 mu'anai moi pagbu'' Is that really how ''mu'anai'' works? I would say ''le 3 ro moi pagbu'' or ''le ro 3 moi pagbu'' for the third and last. I don't think this is a final example (which is an odd meaning for ''mu'anai'' too). --xorxes
**Actually, I don't think either of those work, although I agree with the general problem.  mu'anai *is* the end of a set of examples, but I don't know what examples we're ending! I think "le cimoi je romoi pagbu" works best.  As a stylistic issue, I like writing out lojban namcu valsi, but then I *like* the regular look of all-lowercase lojban, which most other people seem to find tedious. -- Robin


--Richard Darwin, edited by [[jbocre: pc|pc]].
***''roci'' for "all three" (and therefore ''rocimoi'' for "third and last") is by the Book (see pg 442, exx 8.18, 8.19) --xorxes
*** At first, I recoiled from rocimoi, but I think it makes sense now. The numbers are I think a legitimate unofficialness; I already had to eliminate optional punctuation from here.


===  Translation ===
*''le jubme gerna'' -- According to the English translation, this is ''grammar basics'', but I'm not sure how you get that from ''table grammar''. Maybe something like ''gerna sapcmu''. --[[Adam|Adam]]
** Got confused; should be ''jicmu gerna''


I have invented this "amusing story" [[jbocre: horror quotes|horror quotes]]
*"le lidne pagbu po'u" Umm, that refers to just what was said, when it means to be referring to the section *named* "lidne pagbu".  Which, btw, seems like an odd translation for "Introduction".  I suggest "la cfari pagbu", or at least "la lidne pagbu" if you insist on that tanru. -- Robin
**''la'' is consistent with the other mentions here. I realise I've been askew in my usage of ''lidne'' (classic keyword misconstrual), but I think you're being overly literal too. It stays ''la lidne pagbu'' (which it is --- it's just not ''lidne''-ing the current writing), and the ''po'u'' is there to make things clear.


There were two gods. One of the two was named Jeeg, the other Talen.  And the two of them were travelling about in the Cosmos in whatever manner it is that gods travel and they happened to run into each other.  Jeeg said, "Hail, Talen."  Now this greeting rather surprised Talen because he knew that he had never met Jeeg before. So he asked, "Oh, are you omniscient too?"
*"le lu la lojban. mo li'u" needs a la'e somewhere, IMO.  Between the le and lu seems to work.  -Robin
**le lu la lojban mo li'u seltcidu = The document associated with the quotation "What is Lojban?" The association is deliberately vague, so I don't believe the ''la'e'' is necessary.


If Talen were really omniscient (as he implies by his use of "also") then he wouldn't need to ask, because he'd already know the answer.
*".i ji'a co'a vasru loi seltcidu pefi'e la robin.terner." -- This sounds to me like it doesn't *yet* contain it, it's just *starting* to.  How about dropping the .i and doing ".e la 2001nan. poi se cabna le nu ji'a vasru ..."  -- Robin
**Nah, just ''.i ji'a ca la 2001nan. co'a vasru...''


=== Notes by pc except as noted ===
*"vecu'u le 444moi bi'o 457moi papri be le 45 pi'e 2moi krefu be le karni" -- "te krefu", I think. -- Robin
*"le mutmi'i po'u la jbofi'e zi'e nefi'e la ritcrd.kernous." -- the zi'e seems unnecessary, at best.  -- Robin


[[jbocre: bracketed insertions by [jbocre: John Cowan e|John Cowan e]]
*"la lojbangirz. noi ba'o ritli binxo" -- mi stidi zo flalu .enai zo ritli .iji'a mi stidi zo ca'a .enai zo ba'o -- Robin
**Agreed on flalu, disagreed on ba'o: it has become, the process of becoming is now over.


1.  The first two sentences of this story are a challenge. The reading given here for the second part is safe, but inefficient compared to the English 'They were named Jeeg and Talen'.  The problem is to find something nearly as tidy in Lojban.  The direct ''ba nu namci li Djig lu e li Talen lu'' [[jbocre: i.e., ''da se cmene lu Djig li'u .e lu Talen li'u''|i.e., ''da se cmene lu Djig li'u .e lu Talen li'u'']] fails on all counts, since it gives both of them both names. Another attempt -- ''ba nu namci li Djig lu onoi'' [[jbocre: i.e. ''.onai''|i.e. ''.onai'']] ''li Talen lu'' -- guarantees that each has only one name, but allows that it may be the same for both.
*"poi le merko turni cu zanru lenu le cteki be le jdini poi se dunda fi le girzu cu jdika" -- actually, "poi le merko turni cu zanru le nu le jdini poi se dunda fi le girzu cu na se cteki" is more accurate as I understand it.  -- Robin
**So tax-deductable means tax-free, not tax-reduced. Duh, of course. Cut gordian knot: ''girzu poi le merko turni cu zanru lenu na cteki le jdini poi se dunda fi le girzu''


Mr. Darwin [[jbocre: originally|originally]] tried to solve the problem by using ''rerne'', the predicate indicating a 1-1 relationship between -- in this case -- the relevant sets of gods and of names.  One way of doing this would be to change the first sentence to ''ba pa gandi tora'' [[jbocre: i.e. ''da pu cevni remei''|i.e. ''da pu cevni remei'']], so that ''ba'' now stands for the couple, not its members. Then ''ba nu namci nrene li Djig lu ze li Talen lu'' might work -- unless you believe that ''ze'' [[jbocre: ''joi''|''joi'']]between two strings indicates string concatenation (''li A lu ze li B lu = li AB lu'').
*''nalprali'' -- ''non-profit'' referring to an organization is more like ''nalselprali'' (though it's in a tanru so it probably doesn't matter so much.) --[[Adam|Adam]]
*''jungau ly. lenu se cinri'' -- The x2 of djuno and related places should be a ''du'u'' -- [[Adam|Adam]]


There are reasons to think that this is not the case (e.g., ''ze'' usually forms a reference to a team, an entity of a different type from what is named by the constituent expressions), but it might be better to use the list notation here to be safe: ''lie li Djig lu li Talen lu'', or whatever is finally decided on for this.
*"jungau ly. ledu'u se cinri kei semu'i lenu pelji ja skami mrilu" -- I can't correctly interperet this because I don't know the place structure of jungau, but I don't think that it translates "register your interest with us by postal or computer mail".  In particular, semu'i should almost certainly be sepi'o.  -- Robin
**jungau: ko'a gasnu le nu ko'e djuno ko'i ko'o ko'u: "x1 tells/informs x2 that x3 is true about x4 by epistemology x5"


Finally, there is the perfectly safe (but horribly inelegant) expansion of the whole, expanding ''toba'' [[jbocre: ''reda''|''reda'']] and going on from there: ''ba e be pa gandi ice ba no bi be ice ba nu namci li Djig lu ice be nu namci li Talen lu'' [[jbocre: i.e. ''da .e de pu cevni .ije da na du de .ije da se cmene lu Djig li'u .ije de se cmene lu Talen li'u''|i.e. ''da .e de pu cevni .ije da na du de .ije da se cmene lu Djig li'u .ije de se cmene lu Talen li'u'']].  Other, more compact suggestions would be welcome (see elsewhere on the need for a "respectively" operator to allow this last chunk to go ''ba e be nu namci li Djig lu e li Talen lu (resp.)''
**Yes; -gau is only ever intended to add an agent (causative) place up front. ''sepi'o'' is correct, but I think ''semu'i'' is an appropriate nuance: the thing to be done is notify us, and this thing to be done motivates you to send us mail, so the mailing is the ''se mukti'' -- the ''semu'i''. If that sounds like gibberish, I'll make it sepi'o after all.
***I was reading mu'i rather than semu'i.  Oops.  And as such, yes, it was gibberish. 8)   -Robin


* Lojban has ''fa'u'' for this, though unfortunately there is no corresponding gadri with the same meaning. I would say: ''lei re cevni zo'u zo djig fa'u zo talen cmene''. "There were two gods" doesn't sound like an existential claim, more like an introduction of the topic. The story could perfectly well develop in such a way that they encounter a third god for example, so we don't want to make the claim that "two and only two things are gods".--[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
*** 's OK now? -- n
*** Yes. -Robin


2. ''be ji A'' ought to reduce to just A.  Here it is left unreduced to show that what A is is unknown. Does this really work?
*''i mi ji'a cpedu lenu do dunda fi la lojbangirz. mu'i lenu jdikygau lemi ca'o se pleji befo lenu vrici sarji le lojbo cecmu'' --- That reads to Nora like "You pay more so I can pay less", which has the  same effect but seems to make it a more negatively personal thing.  lojbab  observes that this seems to result from the ambiguity between singular or  plural mi.  But this plural still doesn't quite match the meaning I gather  you are trying for.  Our (LLG) payments or costs (outflow) are not  decreased when people contribute money.  Offsetting costs could be phrased  as decreasing debt, but I think of offsetting rather more like fatne than jdika.
** I think you're being disingenuous in the distinction (offsetting '''is''' lessening, and the emotional read-in you're doing there is not in the Lojban as far as I'm concerned), but I'm changing it to fatnygau.


3.  ''nu jimta'' seems more apropos both because it is extra-formal and because it would seem to fit the well-known divine propensity for commands. --Richard Darwin
*"lenu fatnygau lemi ca'o se pleji" -- mi stidi zo jdika .enai zo fatna -- Robin
**But donations won't reduce the payments, they will help meet them.


4.  or ''da nopa djimi la Djig''.
**I just changed it on Nora's request, and I'd rather leave it alone now. :-) Unless you have some explicit reasoning on how ''fatna'' would be misleading (and it might be, but I'll need arguments.)
**Umm, to me it says, "The event of someone turning our bills into credits.".  Which is basically nonsense, but that's what a reversal would be.  I don't actually care *all* that much, though.  And 'helping meet' a bill == 'reducing the amount' of a bill, IMO. -Robin


5. RARDJANO (''ra djano'', all-know)  X is omniscient.
***I agree that ''fatne'' does not make much sense, but the se pleji is not reduced by donations either. Maybe ''mu'i le nu jdikygau le mi ca'o se dejni'', or ''mu'i le nu sidju le nu mi pleji''. We will pay the same amount no matter where the funds come from. --xorxes
*** Done: ''mu'i lenu mi pleji fo lenu vrici sarji le lojbo cecmu''


6.  FEA, from ''fekti'', [[jbocre: meaning|meaning]] "in fact". I cannot find a reference for this, though it seems to be old.
*I suppose ''i mi ji'a cpedu'' is meant to be ''i ji'a mi cpedu''.
*"ro jdini poi do dunda cu plixau" -- mi stidi zo sidju .enai zo plixau -- Robin


=== Partial translation into modern Lojban ===
**''plixau'' is a Nicholism, but I have no cogent reason not to use the more readily understood ''sidju'' --- particularly as there is no language restricting the x1 to animate beings.
*"merko rupnu li su'e 5" .oisai -- su'e does *not* capture the meaning of "as little as", IMO.  Actually, in one of those "'but' is actually 'and'" kind of brain twists, I think su'o is closest: "as little as" == "no less than" == "at least". -- Robin


=== LO TORDU KE LOJBO LISRI JA PEMCI ===
**Maybe ''li 5 do'anai''.
**Both. And I'm hoping that's how ''do'anai'' was intended to be used...


mi pu finti levi fu'epe'a zdile lisri fu'o
*My name should be written in Lojban {pier.aBAT.}. I sometimes forget to capitalize, but it is stressed on the last syllable.
*I thought Adam was aDAM.raizen. He's Hebrew, so I assumed he stressed "Adam" on the last syllable.


re da pu cevni .i pa le remei pu se cmene zo djig. .ije le drata pu se cmene zo talen. .i le cevni puca'o litru le kensa ta'i de poi lo cevni pu litru .i ra simxu cunpe'i .i la djig. cusku lu" doi talen., rinsa ko "li'u .i di'u noi nu rinsa kei cu spaji la talen. mu'i lenu ri djuno ledu'u purci penmi la djig ca nodi .isemu'ibo ra retsku lu" .ue xu do ji'a roldjuno? "li'u
** In Israeli (Modern) Hebrew, ''Adam'' (stress on the penult) is a name and ''aDAM'' (stress on the ultima) is a word meaning ''remna''. ''aDAM'' as name is the type of pendantry that radio announcers and teachers are liable to say. My last name is pronounced ''reizen''. For the record, my native language is English. --[[Adam|Adam]]
*Why {uiliamys}? Should it be {uiliams} or {uiliamyz}?


ni'o da'i la talen ca'a roldjuno to di'u se nibli lenu ri pilno zo ji'a toi, .iseni'ibo ra na nitcu lenu retsku ni'i lenu ra ba'o djuno le danfu
**Resolved by taking iusris out altogether :-( . Sorry, but I did end up redoing the Arabic from scratch...
 
----
 
=== Another translation ===
 
=== lo tordu ke lojbo lisri ja pemci ===
 
mi pu finti le di'e fu'e pe'a zdile lisri fu'o
 
ni'o lei re cevni zo'u zo djig fa'u zo talen cmene i cy ca'o litru le kensa tai lo'e nu lo'e cevni cu litru i cy cunpe'i simxu i la djig cusku lu coi talen li'u
 
i le nu rinsa cu spaji la talen noi ke'a djuno le du'u ke'a noroi pu penmi la djig i semu'ibo ty preti cusku lu ue xu do ji'a roldjuno li'u
 
ni'o ro mu'ei le du'u la talen ca'a roldjuno kei noi le nu ty pilno zo ji'a cu stidi nibli ke'a cu na nitcu le nu preti cusku kei ki'u le nu ty djuno le danfu
 
--i ba'o fanva fa la [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
 
----

Latest revision as of 08:19, 30 June 2014

Intro Errata

Completed

  • There should be a dot in the title after lojban -- And
  • It may be used in conjunction with, or instead of, the introductory lessons available separately. . I don't know about that 'instead of' part. -- Robin
    • Annulled
  • le cmacku cu se pagbu lo cimei It should be: le cmacku cu se pagbu cida. Unless you mean that a threesome is part of the booklet, but that's not what the English says. (Also, I would prefer ckucma for booklet.) --xorxes
    • I wouldn't. But correct on cimei.
  • lo prosa poi casnu le bauske cuntu Perhaps just lo prosa be le bauske cuntu. --xorxes
  • le 3 mu'anai moi pagbu Is that really how mu'anai works? I would say le 3 ro moi pagbu or le ro 3 moi pagbu for the third and last. I don't think this is a final example (which is an odd meaning for mu'anai too). --xorxes
    • Actually, I don't think either of those work, although I agree with the general problem. mu'anai *is* the end of a set of examples, but I don't know what examples we're ending! I think "le cimoi je romoi pagbu" works best. As a stylistic issue, I like writing out lojban namcu valsi, but then I *like* the regular look of all-lowercase lojban, which most other people seem to find tedious. -- Robin
      • roci for "all three" (and therefore rocimoi for "third and last") is by the Book (see pg 442, exx 8.18, 8.19) --xorxes
      • At first, I recoiled from rocimoi, but I think it makes sense now. The numbers are I think a legitimate unofficialness; I already had to eliminate optional punctuation from here.
  • le jubme gerna -- According to the English translation, this is grammar basics, but I'm not sure how you get that from table grammar. Maybe something like gerna sapcmu. --Adam
    • Got confused; should be jicmu gerna
  • "le lidne pagbu po'u" Umm, that refers to just what was said, when it means to be referring to the section *named* "lidne pagbu". Which, btw, seems like an odd translation for "Introduction". I suggest "la cfari pagbu", or at least "la lidne pagbu" if you insist on that tanru. -- Robin
    • la is consistent with the other mentions here. I realise I've been askew in my usage of lidne (classic keyword misconstrual), but I think you're being overly literal too. It stays la lidne pagbu (which it is --- it's just not lidne-ing the current writing), and the po'u is there to make things clear.
  • "le lu la lojban. mo li'u" needs a la'e somewhere, IMO. Between the le and lu seems to work. -Robin
    • le lu la lojban mo li'u seltcidu = The document associated with the quotation "What is Lojban?" The association is deliberately vague, so I don't believe the la'e is necessary.
  • ".i ji'a co'a vasru loi seltcidu pefi'e la robin.terner." -- This sounds to me like it doesn't *yet* contain it, it's just *starting* to. How about dropping the .i and doing ".e la 2001nan. poi se cabna le nu ji'a vasru ..." -- Robin
    • Nah, just .i ji'a ca la 2001nan. co'a vasru...
  • "vecu'u le 444moi bi'o 457moi papri be le 45 pi'e 2moi krefu be le karni" -- "te krefu", I think. -- Robin
  • "le mutmi'i po'u la jbofi'e zi'e nefi'e la ritcrd.kernous." -- the zi'e seems unnecessary, at best. -- Robin
  • "la lojbangirz. noi ba'o ritli binxo" -- mi stidi zo flalu .enai zo ritli .iji'a mi stidi zo ca'a .enai zo ba'o -- Robin
    • Agreed on flalu, disagreed on ba'o: it has become, the process of becoming is now over.
  • "poi le merko turni cu zanru lenu le cteki be le jdini poi se dunda fi le girzu cu jdika" -- actually, "poi le merko turni cu zanru le nu le jdini poi se dunda fi le girzu cu na se cteki" is more accurate as I understand it. -- Robin
    • So tax-deductable means tax-free, not tax-reduced. Duh, of course. Cut gordian knot: girzu poi le merko turni cu zanru lenu na cteki le jdini poi se dunda fi le girzu
  • nalprali -- non-profit referring to an organization is more like nalselprali (though it's in a tanru so it probably doesn't matter so much.) --Adam
  • jungau ly. lenu se cinri -- The x2 of djuno and related places should be a du'u -- Adam
  • "jungau ly. ledu'u se cinri kei semu'i lenu pelji ja skami mrilu" -- I can't correctly interperet this because I don't know the place structure of jungau, but I don't think that it translates "register your interest with us by postal or computer mail". In particular, semu'i should almost certainly be sepi'o. -- Robin
    • jungau: ko'a gasnu le nu ko'e djuno ko'i ko'o ko'u: "x1 tells/informs x2 that x3 is true about x4 by epistemology x5"
    • Yes; -gau is only ever intended to add an agent (causative) place up front. sepi'o is correct, but I think semu'i is an appropriate nuance: the thing to be done is notify us, and this thing to be done motivates you to send us mail, so the mailing is the se mukti -- the semu'i. If that sounds like gibberish, I'll make it sepi'o after all.
      • I was reading mu'i rather than semu'i. Oops. And as such, yes, it was gibberish. 8) -Robin
      • 's OK now? -- n
      • Yes. -Robin
  • i mi ji'a cpedu lenu do dunda fi la lojbangirz. mu'i lenu jdikygau lemi ca'o se pleji befo lenu vrici sarji le lojbo cecmu --- That reads to Nora like "You pay more so I can pay less", which has the same effect but seems to make it a more negatively personal thing. lojbab observes that this seems to result from the ambiguity between singular or plural mi. But this plural still doesn't quite match the meaning I gather you are trying for. Our (LLG) payments or costs (outflow) are not decreased when people contribute money. Offsetting costs could be phrased as decreasing debt, but I think of offsetting rather more like fatne than jdika.
    • I think you're being disingenuous in the distinction (offsetting is lessening, and the emotional read-in you're doing there is not in the Lojban as far as I'm concerned), but I'm changing it to fatnygau.
  • "lenu fatnygau lemi ca'o se pleji" -- mi stidi zo jdika .enai zo fatna -- Robin
    • But donations won't reduce the payments, they will help meet them.
    • I just changed it on Nora's request, and I'd rather leave it alone now. :-) Unless you have some explicit reasoning on how fatna would be misleading (and it might be, but I'll need arguments.)
    • Umm, to me it says, "The event of someone turning our bills into credits.". Which is basically nonsense, but that's what a reversal would be. I don't actually care *all* that much, though. And 'helping meet' a bill == 'reducing the amount' of a bill, IMO. -Robin
      • I agree that fatne does not make much sense, but the se pleji is not reduced by donations either. Maybe mu'i le nu jdikygau le mi ca'o se dejni, or mu'i le nu sidju le nu mi pleji. We will pay the same amount no matter where the funds come from. --xorxes
      • Done: mu'i lenu mi pleji fo lenu vrici sarji le lojbo cecmu
  • I suppose i mi ji'a cpedu is meant to be i ji'a mi cpedu.
  • "ro jdini poi do dunda cu plixau" -- mi stidi zo sidju .enai zo plixau -- Robin
    • plixau is a Nicholism, but I have no cogent reason not to use the more readily understood sidju --- particularly as there is no language restricting the x1 to animate beings.
  • "merko rupnu li su'e 5" .oisai -- su'e does *not* capture the meaning of "as little as", IMO. Actually, in one of those "'but' is actually 'and'" kind of brain twists, I think su'o is closest: "as little as" == "no less than" == "at least". -- Robin
    • Maybe li 5 do'anai.
    • Both. And I'm hoping that's how do'anai was intended to be used...
  • My name should be written in Lojban {pier.aBAT.}. I sometimes forget to capitalize, but it is stressed on the last syllable.
  • I thought Adam was aDAM.raizen. He's Hebrew, so I assumed he stressed "Adam" on the last syllable.
    • In Israeli (Modern) Hebrew, Adam (stress on the penult) is a name and aDAM (stress on the ultima) is a word meaning remna. aDAM as name is the type of pendantry that radio announcers and teachers are liable to say. My last name is pronounced reizen. For the record, my native language is English. --Adam
  • Why {uiliamys}? Should it be {uiliams} or {uiliamyz}?
    • Resolved by taking iusris out altogether :-( . Sorry, but I did end up redoing the Arabic from scratch...
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