https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&feed=atom&action=historylerfu pro-sumti, and why ko'a sucks - Revision history2024-03-29T13:46:53ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=110260&oldid=prevGleki at 15:04, 24 November 20142014-11-24T15:04:25Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Mark writes [[type 4 fu'ivla|Type 4 fu'ivla]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Mark writes [[type 4 fu'ivla|Type 4 fu'ivla]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)" <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-</del>- can you explain?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)" - can you explain?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***mark:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***mark:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with '''li''', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with '''goi''' (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "'''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.'''" for "''the teacher and the merchant <nowiki>[separately]</nowiki> love the spouse of the teacher''", relying on the default that "'''cy.'''" goes back to "'''ctuca'''". Or, more conservatively, you can say "'''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...'''" with the same result, using '''cy.''' exactly like '''ko'a''' (with the slight difference that an unassigned '''ko'a''' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least ''''try'''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for '''la bab.''', '''la djan.''', '''la .alis.''', and '''la fred.''' as '''by.''', '''dy.''', '''.abu''', and '''fy.''' than as '''ko'a''', '''ko'e''', '''ko'i''', and '''ko'o''' (has <u>anyone</u> ever used '''ko'o'''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (mi pilno mi'e maikl.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with '''li''', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with '''goi''' (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "'''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.'''" for "''the teacher and the merchant <nowiki>[separately]</nowiki> love the spouse of the teacher''", relying on the default that "'''cy.'''" goes back to "'''ctuca'''". Or, more conservatively, you can say "'''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...'''" with the same result, using '''cy.''' exactly like '''ko'a''' (with the slight difference that an unassigned '''ko'a''' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least ''''try'''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for '''la bab.''', '''la djan.''', '''la .alis.''', and '''la fred.''' as '''by.''', '''dy.''', '''.abu''', and '''fy.''' than as '''ko'a''', '''ko'e''', '''ko'i''', and '''ko'o''' (has <u>anyone</u> ever used '''ko'o'''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (mi pilno mi'e maikl.)</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=110259&oldid=prevGleki at 15:04, 24 November 20142014-11-24T15:04:00Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)" -- can you explain?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)" -- can you explain?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***mark:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***mark:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with '''li''', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with '''goi''' (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "'''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.'''" for "''the teacher and the merchant <nowiki<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">><font color="#777777"</del>>[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></font></del>separately]</nowiki> love the spouse of the teacher''", relying on the default that "'''cy.'''" goes back to "'''ctuca'''". Or, more conservatively, you can say "'''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...'''" with the same result, using '''cy.''' exactly like '''ko'a''' (with the slight difference that an unassigned '''ko'a''' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least ''''try'''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for '''la bab.''', '''la djan.''', '''la .alis.''', and '''la fred.''' as '''by.''', '''dy.''', '''.abu''', and '''fy.''' than as '''ko'a''', '''ko'e''', '''ko'i''', and '''ko'o''' (has <u>anyone</u> ever used '''ko'o'''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (mi pilno mi'e maikl.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with '''li''', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with '''goi''' (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "'''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.'''" for "''the teacher and the merchant <nowiki>[separately]</nowiki> love the spouse of the teacher''", relying on the default that "'''cy.'''" goes back to "'''ctuca'''". Or, more conservatively, you can say "'''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...'''" with the same result, using '''cy.''' exactly like '''ko'a''' (with the slight difference that an unassigned '''ko'a''' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least ''''try'''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for '''la bab.''', '''la djan.''', '''la .alis.''', and '''la fred.''' as '''by.''', '''dy.''', '''.abu''', and '''fy.''' than as '''ko'a''', '''ko'e''', '''ko'i''', and '''ko'o''' (has <u>anyone</u> ever used '''ko'o'''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (mi pilno mi'e maikl.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about '''lo ctuca''' that particularly would associate her with '''cy'''; I might just as easily have described her as '''lo ninmu''' and use '''ny'''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening '''cy'''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html KLI Lojban] I refer to '''la mark. okrand.''' and then in the next sentence use "'''my.obu.'''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "'''la filip moris'''" and then as "'''fy.my.'''" (or "'''fymy.'''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "'''la klingon. zei bangu ckule'''", I assigned it with "'''goi kybycy.'''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "'''xy.'''" for the KLI's journal "HolQeD", but assigned it with '''goi''', since I used '''la'o''' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about '''lo ctuca''' that particularly would associate her with '''cy'''; I might just as easily have described her as '''lo ninmu''' and use '''ny'''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening '''cy'''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html KLI Lojban] I refer to '''la mark. okrand.''' and then in the next sentence use "'''my.obu.'''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "'''la filip moris'''" and then as "'''fy.my.'''" (or "'''fymy.'''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "'''la klingon. zei bangu ckule'''", I assigned it with "'''goi kybycy.'''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "'''xy.'''" for the KLI's journal "HolQeD", but assigned it with '''goi''', since I used '''la'o''' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "'''.mark.bu'''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "'''la mark.'''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "'''mark.bu'''" is probably somebody named Mar[[ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "'''mark.bu'''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when ''''mentioned'''', but not when used this way. "'''li mark.bu'''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "'''by.'''" for '''la bab.''', I can use "'''mark.bu'''" for '''la markonilentironafilos.''']</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "'''.mark.bu'''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "'''la mark.'''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "'''mark.bu'''" is probably somebody named Mar[[ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "'''mark.bu'''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when ''''mentioned'''', but not when used this way. "'''li mark.bu'''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "'''by.'''" for '''la bab.''', I can use "'''mark.bu'''" for '''la markonilentironafilos.''']</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=110258&oldid=prevGleki at 15:02, 24 November 20142014-11-24T15:02:10Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:02, 24 November 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)" -- can you explain?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)" -- can you explain?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***mark:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***mark:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with '''li''', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with '''goi''' (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "'''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.'''" for "''the teacher and the merchant [<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[</del>separately<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|separately]</del>] love the spouse of the teacher''", relying on the default that "'''cy.'''" goes back to "'''ctuca'''". Or, more conservatively, you can say "'''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...'''" with the same result, using '''cy.''' exactly like '''ko'a''' (with the slight difference that an unassigned '''ko'a''' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least ''''try'''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for '''la bab.''', '''la djan.''', '''la .alis.''', and '''la fred.''' as '''by.''', '''dy.''', '''.abu''', and '''fy.''' than as '''ko'a''', '''ko'e''', '''ko'i''', and '''ko'o''' (has <u>anyone</u> ever used '''ko'o'''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (mi pilno mi'e maikl.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with '''li''', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with '''goi''' (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "'''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.'''" for "''the teacher and the merchant <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><nowiki><font color="#777777"></ins>[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></font></ins>separately]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></nowiki> </ins>love the spouse of the teacher''", relying on the default that "'''cy.'''" goes back to "'''ctuca'''". Or, more conservatively, you can say "'''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...'''" with the same result, using '''cy.''' exactly like '''ko'a''' (with the slight difference that an unassigned '''ko'a''' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least ''''try'''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for '''la bab.''', '''la djan.''', '''la .alis.''', and '''la fred.''' as '''by.''', '''dy.''', '''.abu''', and '''fy.''' than as '''ko'a''', '''ko'e''', '''ko'i''', and '''ko'o''' (has <u>anyone</u> ever used '''ko'o'''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (mi pilno mi'e maikl.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about '''lo ctuca''' that particularly would associate her with '''cy'''; I might just as easily have described her as '''lo ninmu''' and use '''ny'''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening '''cy'''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html KLI Lojban] I refer to '''la mark. okrand.''' and then in the next sentence use "'''my.obu.'''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "'''la filip moris'''" and then as "'''fy.my.'''" (or "'''fymy.'''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "'''la klingon. zei bangu ckule'''", I assigned it with "'''goi kybycy.'''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "'''xy.'''" for the KLI's journal "HolQeD", but assigned it with '''goi''', since I used '''la'o''' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about '''lo ctuca''' that particularly would associate her with '''cy'''; I might just as easily have described her as '''lo ninmu''' and use '''ny'''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening '''cy'''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html KLI Lojban] I refer to '''la mark. okrand.''' and then in the next sentence use "'''my.obu.'''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "'''la filip moris'''" and then as "'''fy.my.'''" (or "'''fymy.'''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "'''la klingon. zei bangu ckule'''", I assigned it with "'''goi kybycy.'''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "'''xy.'''" for the KLI's journal "HolQeD", but assigned it with '''goi''', since I used '''la'o''' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "'''.mark.bu'''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "'''la mark.'''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "'''mark.bu'''" is probably somebody named Mar[[ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "'''mark.bu'''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when ''''mentioned'''', but not when used this way. "'''li mark.bu'''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "'''by.'''" for '''la bab.''', I can use "'''mark.bu'''" for '''la markonilentironafilos.''']</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "'''.mark.bu'''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "'''la mark.'''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "'''mark.bu'''" is probably somebody named Mar[[ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "'''mark.bu'''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when ''''mentioned'''', but not when used this way. "'''li mark.bu'''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "'''by.'''" for '''la bab.''', I can use "'''mark.bu'''" for '''la markonilentironafilos.''']</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=110257&oldid=prevGleki at 15:01, 24 November 20142014-11-24T15:01:20Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:01, 24 November 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">On the mailing list, </del>[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">writes</del>:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: </del>Mark writes [[type 4 fu'ivla|Type 4 fu'ivla]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>Mark writes [[type 4 fu'ivla|Type 4 fu'ivla]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)" -- can you explain?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: </del>"we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***mark</ins>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: </del>think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)"</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''li<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>goi<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>(well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" for "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>the teacher and the merchant [[separately|separately]] love the spouse of the teacher<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''"</ins>, relying on the default that "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''cy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" goes back to "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ctuca<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''"<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. </ins>Or, more conservatively, you can say "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" with the same result, using <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''cy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' exactly like <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ko'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' (with the slight difference that an unassigned <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ko'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'''try<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la bab.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la djan.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la .alis.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la fred.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''by.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''dy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''.abu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' than as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ko'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ko'e<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ko'i<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ko'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' (has <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>anyone<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>ever used <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ko'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (mi pilno mi'e maikl.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lo ctuca<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' that particularly would associate her with <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''cy<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''; I might just as easily have described her as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lo ninmu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and use <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ny<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''cy<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">KLI Lojban</ins>] I refer to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la mark. okrand.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and then in the next sentence use "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''my.obu.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la filip moris<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" and then as "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fy.my.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" (or "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fymy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la klingon. zei bangu ckule<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''", I assigned it with "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''goi kybycy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''xy.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" for the KLI's journal <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>HolQeD<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>, but assigned it with <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''goi<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', since I used <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: </del>-- can you explain?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''.mark.bu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la mark.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mark.bu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" is probably somebody named Mar[[ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mark.bu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'''mentioned<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''', but not when used this way. "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''li mark.bu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''by.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la bab.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', I can use "<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mark.bu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''" for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la markonilentironafilos.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'']</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* But if you haven't assigned <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''.mark.bu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', then the listener would have to figure out what sort of name begins with the letter Mark.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">To which I (Mark) answered</del>:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** True. But such a listener, absent any other ideas, could do no worse than to guess that the name <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''is<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' Mark, or starts with it. Or, more likely, would wonder if he missed the introduction of the name earlier. I think you could get away with using <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mark.bu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' as an alternative to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''la mark.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''... but only with a very clever and playful and fun-loving audience. It's more a curiosity, I think.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>The only advantage ko'a-series does still have (aside from history) is the fact that three of the fo'a series (fo'a, fo'e, fo'i) have rafsi and can thus make lujvo... but has anyone really done this? So that's why I say I think the ko'a-series doesn't have much utility. Anything they can do, lerfu-strings can, and more, and easier.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Um, I can try.</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>Since posting that, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] and [[pycyn|pycyn]] both asked about the problem of telling <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fy.my.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' is one sumti and not two (<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fy<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''my<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''). The answer is the little-known lerfu-string terminator <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''boi<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''. So if they were really two sumti, I'd have to say <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fy.boi my.[[boi|boi]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', but in practice I don't see that happening all that much. Well, at least, it hasn't in my experience. I don't know there'd be all that many lerfu pro-sumti at once, even though I think that the mnemonicity involved would enable far more pro-sumti than the usual half-dozen or so that people can keep track of at once. But even beyond that, another curious feature of Lojban is that even though gismu have up to five places, and lujvo can have even more, it's really comparatively uncommon to see more than two of them filled in. Someone should do an analysis someday. And if there are only two, usually the selbri separates, so <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''boi<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' is unnecessary. And even if you do have to say it now and then, I don't think it's much of a hassle, on the whole.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>(The problem with this is, this was meant for casual usage; and as soon as a second <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''gismu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' beginning with that letter appears, doesn't it render the assigned <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lerfu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' ambiguous?)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with ''li'', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with goi (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.''" for "the teacher and the merchant [[separately|separately]] love the spouse of the teacher,<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </del>relying on the default that "''cy.''" goes back to "''ctuca<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</del>''" Or, more conservatively, you can say "''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...''" with the same result, using ''cy.'' exactly like ''ko'a'' (with the slight difference that an unassigned ''ko'a'' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least '''try''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for ''la bab.'', ''la djan.'', ''la .alis.'', and ''la fred.'' as ''by.'', ''dy.'', ''.abu'', and ''fy.'' than as ''ko'a'', ''ko'e'', ''ko'i'', and ''ko'o'' (has <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>anyone<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </del>ever used ''ko'o''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>mi pilno mi'e maikl.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***[[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>(a) That's not a problem if you use two-lerfu abbreviations, but that's a cop-out. (b) I'd say that an <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''explicitly bound<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' lerfu pro-sumti should have great enough staying-power to withstand implicit binding by an intervening gismu. I don't even think that's controversial: I believe the official word is that lerfu-as-sumti take the nearest same-letter sumti as their referent <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'''only if<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''' they are not otherwise bound. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You don</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t </ins>just have to use the first letter, obviously, which leads to non-obvious solutions like <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''goi la .y'y.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' - since nothing begins with ' in lojban.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about ''lo ctuca'' that particularly would associate her with ''cy''; I might just as easily have described her as ''lo ninmu'' and use ''ny''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening ''cy''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html] I refer to ''la mark. okrand.'' and then in the next sentence use "''my.obu.''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "''la filip moris''" and then as "''fy.my.''" (or "''fymy.''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "''la klingon. zei bangu ckule''", I assigned it with "''goi kybycy.''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "''xy.''" for the KLI's journal <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>HolQeD<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>, but assigned it with ''goi'', since I used ''la'o'' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*****</ins>True, but that blows away all the advantage of using lerfu in the first place: the mnemonicity is a big plus. Oh, and it would be "goi .y'y.": the lerfu IS the pro-sumti, not a name.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "''.mark.bu''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "''la mark.''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "''mark.bu''" is probably somebody named Mar[[ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "''mark.bu''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when '''mentioned''', but not when used this way. "''li mark.bu''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "''by.''" for ''la bab.'', I can use "''mark.bu''" for ''la markonilentironafilos.'']</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* But if you haven't assigned ''.mark.bu'', then the listener would have to figure out what sort of name begins with the letter Mark.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** True. But such a listener, absent any other ideas, could do no worse than to guess that the name ''is'' Mark, or starts with it. Or, more likely, would wonder if he missed the introduction of the name earlier. I think you could get away with using ''mark.bu'' as an alternative to ''la mark.''... but only with a very clever and playful and fun-loving audience. It's more a curiosity, I think.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The only advantage ko'a-series does still have (aside from history) is the fact that three of the fo'a series (fo'a, fo'e, fo'i) have rafsi and can thus make lujvo... but has anyone really done this? So that's why I say I think the ko'a-series doesn't have much utility. Anything they can do, lerfu-strings can, and more, and easier.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Okay. </del>Since posting that, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] and [[pycyn|pycyn]] both asked about the problem of telling ''fy.my.'' is one sumti and not two (''fy'' and ''my''). The answer is the little-known lerfu-string terminator ''boi''. So if they were really two sumti, I'd have to say ''fy.boi my.[[boi|boi]]'', but in practice I don't see that happening all that much. Well, at least, it hasn't in my experience. I don't know there'd be all that many lerfu pro-sumti at once, even though I think that the mnemonicity involved would enable far more pro-sumti than the usual half-dozen or so that people can keep track of at once. But even beyond that, another curious feature of Lojban is that even though gismu have up to five places, and lujvo can have even more, it's really comparatively uncommon to see more than two of them filled in. Someone should do an analysis someday. And if there are only two, usually the selbri separates, so ''boi'' is unnecessary. And even if you do have to say it now and then, I don't think it's much of a hassle, on the whole.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(The problem with this is, this was meant for casual usage; and as soon as a second ''gismu'' beginning with that letter appears, doesn't it render the assigned ''lerfu'' ambiguous?)</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(a) That's not a problem if you use two-lerfu abbreviations, but that's a cop-out. (b) I'd say that an ''explicitly bound'' lerfu pro-sumti should have great enough staying-power to withstand implicit binding by an intervening gismu. I don't even think that's controversial: I believe the official word is that lerfu-as-sumti take the nearest same-letter sumti as their referent '''only if''' they are not otherwise bound. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]].''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You don't </del>just have to use the first letter, obviously, which leads to non-obvious solutions like ''goi la .y'y.'' - since nothing begins with ' in lojban. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>True, but that blows away all the advantage of using lerfu in the first place: the mnemonicity is a big plus. Oh, and it would be "goi .y'y.": the lerfu IS the pro-sumti, not a name.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=90946&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:53:01Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:53, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{jbocre/en}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{jbocre/en}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>On the mailing list, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] writes:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>On the mailing list, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] writes:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: Mark writes [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>type 4 fu'ivla|Type 4 fu'ivla]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: Mark writes [[type 4 fu'ivla|Type 4 fu'ivla]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: "we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: "we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Okay. Since posting that, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] and [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>pycyn|pycyn]] both asked about the problem of telling ''fy.my.'' is one sumti and not two (''fy'' and ''my''). The answer is the little-known lerfu-string terminator ''boi''. So if they were really two sumti, I'd have to say ''fy.boi my.[[boi|boi]]'', but in practice I don't see that happening all that much. Well, at least, it hasn't in my experience. I don't know there'd be all that many lerfu pro-sumti at once, even though I think that the mnemonicity involved would enable far more pro-sumti than the usual half-dozen or so that people can keep track of at once. But even beyond that, another curious feature of Lojban is that even though gismu have up to five places, and lujvo can have even more, it's really comparatively uncommon to see more than two of them filled in. Someone should do an analysis someday. And if there are only two, usually the selbri separates, so ''boi'' is unnecessary. And even if you do have to say it now and then, I don't think it's much of a hassle, on the whole.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Okay. Since posting that, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] and [[pycyn|pycyn]] both asked about the problem of telling ''fy.my.'' is one sumti and not two (''fy'' and ''my''). The answer is the little-known lerfu-string terminator ''boi''. So if they were really two sumti, I'd have to say ''fy.boi my.[[boi|boi]]'', but in practice I don't see that happening all that much. Well, at least, it hasn't in my experience. I don't know there'd be all that many lerfu pro-sumti at once, even though I think that the mnemonicity involved would enable far more pro-sumti than the usual half-dozen or so that people can keep track of at once. But even beyond that, another curious feature of Lojban is that even though gismu have up to five places, and lujvo can have even more, it's really comparatively uncommon to see more than two of them filled in. Someone should do an analysis someday. And if there are only two, usually the selbri separates, so ''boi'' is unnecessary. And even if you do have to say it now and then, I don't think it's much of a hassle, on the whole.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=88146&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: lerfu pro-sumti, and why ko'a sucks to lerfu pro-sumti, and why ko'a sucks without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: l" to "l"2014-03-23T12:14:13Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: lerfu pro-sumti, and why ko'a sucks (page does not exist)">jbocre: lerfu pro-sumti, and why ko'a sucks</a> to <a href="/papri/lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks" title="lerfu pro-sumti, and why ko'a sucks">lerfu pro-sumti, and why ko'a sucks</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: l" to "l"</p>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=88071&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"2014-03-23T12:13:48Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:13, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about ''lo ctuca'' that particularly would associate her with ''cy''; I might just as easily have described her as ''lo ninmu'' and use ''ny''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening ''cy''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html] I refer to ''la mark. okrand.'' and then in the next sentence use "''my.obu.''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "''la filip moris''" and then as "''fy.my.''" (or "''fymy.''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "''la klingon. zei bangu ckule''", I assigned it with "''goi kybycy.''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "''xy.''" for the KLI's journal ''HolQeD'', but assigned it with ''goi'', since I used ''la'o'' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about ''lo ctuca'' that particularly would associate her with ''cy''; I might just as easily have described her as ''lo ninmu'' and use ''ny''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening ''cy''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html] I refer to ''la mark. okrand.'' and then in the next sentence use "''my.obu.''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "''la filip moris''" and then as "''fy.my.''" (or "''fymy.''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "''la klingon. zei bangu ckule''", I assigned it with "''goi kybycy.''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "''xy.''" for the KLI's journal ''HolQeD'', but assigned it with ''goi'', since I used ''la'o'' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "''.mark.bu''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "''la mark.''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "''mark.bu''" is probably somebody named Mar[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "''mark.bu''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when '''mentioned''', but not when used this way. "''li mark.bu''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "''by.''" for ''la bab.'', I can use "''mark.bu''" for ''la markonilentironafilos.'']</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene+bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "''.mark.bu''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "''la mark.''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "''mark.bu''" is probably somebody named Mar[[ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "''mark.bu''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when '''mentioned''', but not when used this way. "''li mark.bu''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "''by.''" for ''la bab.'', I can use "''mark.bu''" for ''la markonilentironafilos.'']</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* But if you haven't assigned ''.mark.bu'', then the listener would have to figure out what sort of name begins with the letter Mark.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* But if you haven't assigned ''.mark.bu'', then the listener would have to figure out what sort of name begins with the letter Mark.</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=87792&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: s" to "s"2014-03-23T12:04:52Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: s" to "s"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Um, I can try.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Um, I can try.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with ''li'', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with goi (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.''" for "the teacher and the merchant [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>separately|separately]] love the spouse of the teacher," relying on the default that "''cy.''" goes back to "''ctuca.''" Or, more conservatively, you can say "''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...''" with the same result, using ''cy.'' exactly like ''ko'a'' (with the slight difference that an unassigned ''ko'a'' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least '''try''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for ''la bab.'', ''la djan.'', ''la .alis.'', and ''la fred.'' as ''by.'', ''dy.'', ''.abu'', and ''fy.'' than as ''ko'a'', ''ko'e'', ''ko'i'', and ''ko'o'' (has '''anyone''' ever used ''ko'o''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (''mi pilno mi'e maikl.'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with ''li'', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with goi (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. So I can say "''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.''" for "the teacher and the merchant [[separately|separately]] love the spouse of the teacher," relying on the default that "''cy.''" goes back to "''ctuca.''" Or, more conservatively, you can say "''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...''" with the same result, using ''cy.'' exactly like ''ko'a'' (with the slight difference that an unassigned ''ko'a'' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least '''try''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for ''la bab.'', ''la djan.'', ''la .alis.'', and ''la fred.'' as ''by.'', ''dy.'', ''.abu'', and ''fy.'' than as ''ko'a'', ''ko'e'', ''ko'i'', and ''ko'o'' (has '''anyone''' ever used ''ko'o''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (''mi pilno mi'e maikl.'')</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about ''lo ctuca'' that particularly would associate her with ''cy''; I might just as easily have described her as ''lo ninmu'' and use ''ny''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening ''cy''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html] I refer to ''la mark. okrand.'' and then in the next sentence use "''my.obu.''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "''la filip moris''" and then as "''fy.my.''" (or "''fymy.''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "''la klingon. zei bangu ckule''", I assigned it with "''goi kybycy.''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "''xy.''" for the KLI's journal ''HolQeD'', but assigned it with ''goi'', since I used ''la'o'' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I like using these, though I don't trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about ''lo ctuca'' that particularly would associate her with ''cy''; I might just as easily have described her as ''lo ninmu'' and use ''ny''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening ''cy''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html] I refer to ''la mark. okrand.'' and then in the next sentence use "''my.obu.''" Perhaps that's counting on a little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "''la filip moris''" and then as "''fy.my.''" (or "''fymy.''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "''la klingon. zei bangu ckule''", I assigned it with "''goi kybycy.''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "''xy.''" for the KLI's journal ''HolQeD'', but assigned it with ''goi'', since I used ''la'o'' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=86705&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: b" to "b"2014-03-23T11:35:22Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: b" to "b"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Okay. Since posting that, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] and [[jbocre: pycyn|pycyn]] both asked about the problem of telling ''fy.my.'' is one sumti and not two (''fy'' and ''my''). The answer is the little-known lerfu-string terminator ''boi''. So if they were really two sumti, I'd have to say ''fy.boi my.[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>boi|boi]]'', but in practice I don't see that happening all that much. Well, at least, it hasn't in my experience. I don't know there'd be all that many lerfu pro-sumti at once, even though I think that the mnemonicity involved would enable far more pro-sumti than the usual half-dozen or so that people can keep track of at once. But even beyond that, another curious feature of Lojban is that even though gismu have up to five places, and lujvo can have even more, it's really comparatively uncommon to see more than two of them filled in. Someone should do an analysis someday. And if there are only two, usually the selbri separates, so ''boi'' is unnecessary. And even if you do have to say it now and then, I don't think it's much of a hassle, on the whole.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Okay. Since posting that, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] and [[jbocre: pycyn|pycyn]] both asked about the problem of telling ''fy.my.'' is one sumti and not two (''fy'' and ''my''). The answer is the little-known lerfu-string terminator ''boi''. So if they were really two sumti, I'd have to say ''fy.boi my.[[boi|boi]]'', but in practice I don't see that happening all that much. Well, at least, it hasn't in my experience. I don't know there'd be all that many lerfu pro-sumti at once, even though I think that the mnemonicity involved would enable far more pro-sumti than the usual half-dozen or so that people can keep track of at once. But even beyond that, another curious feature of Lojban is that even though gismu have up to five places, and lujvo can have even more, it's really comparatively uncommon to see more than two of them filled in. Someone should do an analysis someday. And if there are only two, usually the selbri separates, so ''boi'' is unnecessary. And even if you do have to say it now and then, I don't think it's much of a hassle, on the whole.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=lerfu_pro-sumti,_and_why_ko%27a_sucks&diff=75304&oldid=prevGleki at 09:27, 14 November 20132013-11-14T09:27:43Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 1:</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{jbocre/en}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">On the mailing list, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] writes:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: Mark writes [[jbocre: type 4 fu'ivla|Type 4 fu'ivla]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: "we can use any string of lerfu as a ko'a-style sumti variable (which makes me</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: think that there's practically no reason ever to use the ko'a series at all)"</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">: -- can you explain?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{jvsv buktaiterjo'e} bukpu+tarmi+te+jorne</del>: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> "dart" of... joined to... ~np~[[jbocre: clothing|clothing]]~/np~</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">To which I (Mark) answered</ins>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{jvsv bukykoi} bukpu+korbi: selvedge of</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.. ~np~[[jbocre: clothing|clothing]]~/np~</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Um, I can try</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{jvsv nebykoi} cnebo+korbi: </del> <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">neck edge ~np~</del>[[jbocre: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">clothing</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">clothing</del>]]<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">~/np~</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">As I understand it, any old lerfu-string in a sentence can be used as a sumti (yes, it's also a mex, usable with ''li'', and so forth. I mean just a bare string of lerfu as a sumti). It's considered a "variable" pro-sumti, assignable with goi (well, you can assign any sumti with goi, but I mean it's semantically and pragmatically sensible in general with lerfu-strings). If unassigned, they default to the most recent sumti with the appropriate initial letter(s), if any, or so they tell me. </ins> <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">So I can say "''le ctuca .e le vecnu cu prami le speni be cy.''" for "the teacher and the merchant </ins>[[jbocre: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">separately</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">separately</ins>]] <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">love the spouse of the teacher," relying on the default that "''cy.''" goes back to "''ctuca.''" Or, more conservatively, you can say "''le ctuca goi cy. .e le vecnu...''" with the same result, using ''cy.'' exactly like ''ko'a'' (with the slight difference that an unassigned ''ko'a'' is meaningless, while an unassigned lerfu-string will at least '''try''' to find a meaning, possibly the one you wanted). So basically, a lerfu-string can do anything a ko'a can do, and then some. The two and-then-somes are: (a) as mentioned, if it's unassigned, it will try to snag a nearby meaning, and if done properly, this is not so bad and pretty reliable (see below). (b) lerfu-strings have far more potential for mnemonic power than ko'a. It's a lot easier to keep track of pronouns for ''la bab.'', ''la djan.'', ''la .alis.'', and ''la fred.'' as ''by.'', ''dy.'', ''.abu'', and ''fy.'' than as ''ko'a'', ''ko'e'', ''ko'i'', and ''ko'o'' (has '''anyone''' ever used ''ko'o''? I had to look that one up to double-check that it really was still in the series). (''mi pilno mi'e maikl.'')</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{jvsv fengidmo</del>'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} fenso</del>+<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">gidva+morna</del>: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sewing pattern </del>for <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">garment</del>...</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I like using these, though I don</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t trust the implicit assignments completely (but I do use them, just not in all cases). The mnemonicity is a real brain-saver. I don't like the implicit assignment with descriptors, though, for some reason. Somehow it doesn't seem that reliable. Maybe it's because there's nothing about ''lo ctuca'' that particularly would associate her with ''cy''; I might just as easily have described her as ''lo ninmu'' and use ''ny''. This is not a valid argument I'm making, just something that sort of affects my thinking (after all, there are endlessly many names for everyone). Also, with all the brivla that get used in a sentence, I could easily forget that there was another intervening ''cy''-sumti that would thus get misassigned. But with names I have no such qualms, especially if I have a two-word name and can use two initials. This saves me the assignment step, and works quite well. So in [http://www.kli.org/kli/langs/KLIlojban.html] I refer to ''la mark. okrand.'' and then in the next sentence use "''my.obu.''" Perhaps that's counting on </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">little too much, that the reader should know I'm taking initials (as opposed to, say, the first two letters in the name), I don't know. I think it works. Or recently I was writing something about the Phillip Morris company, referring to it as "''la filip moris''" and then as "''fy.my.''" (or "''fymy.''") On the other hand, when I introduced the KLI as "''la klingon. zei bangu ckule''", I assigned it with "''goi kybycy.''" and used that throughout (I didn't trust the assignment to a tanru/lujvo/zei-thingy of indeterminate initials). Multi-letter strings are even less prone to confusion than single letters, so I think they work quite well. I used "''xy.''" for the KLI's journal ''HolQeD'', but assigned it with ''goi'', since I used ''la'o'' quotes and can't count on people to know the pronunciation.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(As an aside, here's a bizarre consequence... since cmene</ins>+<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">bu is syntactically a lerfu, you could use "''.mark.bu''" as a sumti, leaving it up to the listener to somehow work out who it was... which isn't all that much worse than saying "''la mark.''" and hoping they know. The best guess for "''mark.bu''" is probably somebody named Mar[[jbocre: ck|ck]], right? (And no cracks about how "''mark.bu''" is some "letter Mark." That's true, when '''mentioned''', but not when used this way. "''li mark.bu''" is a mathematical expression, like using "area" as a variable. To get "letter-mark" you'd need a letter context, not a sumti context. Just like I can use "''by.''" for ''la bab.'', I can use "''mark.bu''" for ''la markonilentironafilos.'']</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* But if you haven't assigned ''.mark.bu'', then the listener would have to figure out what sort of name begins with the letter Mark.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** True. But such a listener, absent any other ideas, could do no worse than to guess that the name ''is'' Mark, or starts with it. Or, more likely, would wonder if he missed the introduction of the name earlier. I think you could get away with using ''mark.bu'' as an alternative to ''la mark.''... but only with a very clever and playful and fun-loving audience. It's more a curiosity, I think.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The only advantage ko'a-series does still have (aside from history) is the fact that three of the fo'a series (fo'a, fo'e, fo'i) have rafsi and can thus make lujvo... but has anyone really done this? So that's why I say I think the ko'a-series doesn't have much utility. Anything they can do, lerfu-strings can, and more, and easier.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Okay. Since posting that, [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] and [[jbocre: pycyn|pycyn]] both asked about the problem of telling ''fy.my.'' is one sumti and not two (''fy'' and ''my''). The answer is the little-known lerfu-string terminator ''boi''. So if they were really two sumti, I'd have to say ''fy.boi my.[[jbocre</ins>: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">boi|boi]]'', but in practice I don't see that happening all that much. </ins> <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Well, at least, it hasn't in my experience. I don't know there'd be all that many lerfu pro-sumti at once, even though I think that the mnemonicity involved would enable far more pro-sumti than the usual half-dozen or so that people can keep track of at once. But even beyond that, another curious feature of Lojban is that even though gismu have up to five places, and lujvo can have even more, it's really comparatively uncommon to see more than two of them filled in. Someone should do an analysis someday. And if there are only two, usually the selbri separates, so ''boi'' is unnecessary. And even if you do have to say it now and then, I don't think it's much of a hassle, on the whole.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(The problem with this is, this was meant </ins>for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">casual usage; and as soon as a second ''gismu'' beginning with that letter appears, doesn't it render the assigned ''lerfu'' ambiguous?)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(a) That's not a problem if you use two-lerfu abbreviations, but that's a cop-out</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> (b) I'd say that an ''explicitly bound'' lerfu pro-sumti should have great enough staying-power to withstand implicit binding by an intervening gismu. I don't even think that's controversial: I believe the official word is that lerfu-as-sumti take the nearest same-letter sumti as their referent '''only if''' they are not otherwise bound. ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]].''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You don't just have to use the first letter, obviously, which leads to non-obvious solutions like ''goi la .y'y.'' - since nothing begins with ' in lojban. ''True, but that blows away all the advantage of using lerfu in the first place: the mnemonicity is a big plus. Oh, and it would be "goi .y'y</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">": the lerfu IS the pro-sumti, not a name</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins></div></td></tr>
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</table>Gleki