Difference between revisions of "gotchas"

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== Lojban gotchas, unexpected points to keep in mind ==
 
== Lojban gotchas, unexpected points to keep in mind ==
 
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*[[Leftward Branching tanru Gotcha|Leftward Branching tanru Gotcha]] (e.g. '''lenku cakla ladru''' - '''bzzt!''')
*[[jbocre: Leftward Branching tanru Gotcha|Leftward Branching tanru Gotcha]] (e.g. ''lenku cakla ladru'' -- '''bzzt!''')
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*[[Inconsistent Gismu Place Structures Gotcha|Inconsistent Gismu Place Structures Gotcha]] (e.g. '''lo tirxrxacinonice <nowiki>[cheetah]</nowiki> cu tirxu fi loi cukla .ije lo xirmrxipotigre <nowiki>[zebra]</nowiki> cu xirma fi loi dasri'' - '''bzzt!''')
*[[jbocre: Inconsistent Gismu Place Structures Gotcha|Inconsistent Gismu Place Structures Gotcha]] (e.g. '' lo tirxrxacinonice [[jbocre: cheetah|cheetah]] cu tirxu fi loi cukla .ije lo xirmrxipotigre [[jbocre: zebra|zebra]] cu xirma fi loi dasri'' -- '''bzzt!''')
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* [[Relative Clause Veridical Quantification Gotcha|Relative Clause Veridical Quantification Gotcha]] (e.g. ''lo nanmu noi blabi'' - '''bzzt!''')
 
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* [[Name Containing Selbri Relativisation Scope Gotcha|Name Containing Selbri Relativisation Scope Gotcha]] (e.g. ''la xunre poi pendo mi'' - '''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: Relative Clause Veridical Quantification Gotcha|Relative Clause Veridical Quantification Gotcha]] (e.g. ''lo nanmu noi blabi'' -- '''bzzt!''')
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* [[joiku|ku necessary after JOI Gotcha]] (e.g. ''le ckafi joi le ladru'' - '''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: Name Containing Selbri Relativisation Scope Gotcha|Name Containing Selbri Relativisation Scope Gotcha]] (e.g. ''la xunre poi pendo mi'' -- '''bzzt!''')
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* [[le broda ku na brode Gotcha|le broda ku na brode Gotcha]]
 
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** This means "Not all of the brodas are brode". To say the more intuitive "(Each of) the broda(s) are not brode", the negation must be '''na ku''' and follow the le sumti, "le broda ku na ku brode". [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]], 2001/8/6
* [[Obsolete: joiku u necessary after JOI Gotcha|joiku u necessary after JOI Gotcha]] (e.g. ''le ckafi joi le ladru'' -- '''bzzt!''')
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* [['''pe''' necessary for "sumti plus (BAI-type modifier)" (gotcha)]] (e.g. ''mi pinxydji loi ckafi cau loi ladru'' - '''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: le broda ku na brode Gotcha|le broda ku na brode Gotcha]]
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** Well, ''pe'' or ''be'' actually. AKA (I propose) [[I Shot An Elephant In My Pyjamas Gotcha|I Shot An Elephant In My Pyjamas Gotcha]]
 
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* [[White Knight's Song Gotcha|White Knight's Song Gotcha]] (e.g. ''la djan. cmene mi'' - '''bzzt!''')
** This means "Not all of the brodas are brode". To say the more intuitive "(Each of) the broda(s) are not brode", the negation must be "na ku" and follow the le sumti, "le broda ku na ku brode". [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]], 2001/8/6
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* [[Goatleg gotcha|Goatleg gotcha]] (e.g. ''vo da tuple lo'e kanba .ije re da tuple lo'e kanba'' - '''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: ''pe'' necessary for ''sumti'' plus (BAI-type modifier) Gotcha|''pe'' necessary for ''sumti'' plus (BAI-type modifier) Gotcha]] (e.g. ''mi pinxydji loi ckafi cau loi ladru'' -- '''bzzt!''')
 
 
 
**Well, ''pe'' or ''be'' actually. AKA (I propose) [[jbocre: I Shot An Elephant In My Pyjamas Gotcha|I Shot An Elephant In My Pyjamas Gotcha]]
 
* [[jbocre: White Knight's Song Gotcha|White Knight's Song Gotcha]] (e.g. ''la djan. cmene mi'' -- '''bzzt!''')
 
 
 
* [[jbocre: Goatleg gotcha|Goatleg gotcha]] (e.g. ''vo da tuple lo'e kanba .ije re da tuple lo'e kanba'' -- '''bzzt!''')
 
 
* [[all places equally important gotcha|all places equally important gotcha]]
 
* [[all places equally important gotcha|all places equally important gotcha]]
 
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* [[A double negative remains negative gotcha|A double negative remains negative gotcha]] (e.g. ''xu do na remna - .i mi na go'i'' - '''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: A double negative remains negative gotcha|A double negative remains negative gotcha]] (e.g. ''xu do na remna -- .i mi na go'i'' -- '''bzzt!''')
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* [[unspeakable rafsi gotcha|Unspeakable rafsi gotcha]] (e.g. ''zo cpi rafsi zo cipni'' -'''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: Unspeakable rafsi gotcha|Unspeakable rafsi gotcha]] (e.g. ''zo cpi rafsi zo cipni'' --'''bzzt!''')
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* [[Negative claims and universals|Negative claims and universals]] (e.g. ''mi claxu lo fipybirka'' -'''bzzt!''')
 
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* [[unquotable cmavo compound gotcha|Unquotable cmavo compound gotcha]] (e.g. ''mi nelci lenu mi pilno lu ganai li'u'' -'''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: Negative claims and universals|Negative claims and universals]] (e.g. ''mi claxu lo fipybirka'' --'''bzzt!''')
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* The other [[unquotable cmavo compound gotcha|Unquotable cmavo compound gotcha]] (on same page) (e.g. ''ko'a cusku zo go'i .iku'i fo'i cusku zo nago'i'' -'''bzzt!''')
* [[jbocre: Unquotable cmavo compound gotcha|Unquotable cmavo compound gotcha]] (e.g. ''mi nelci lenu mi pilno lu ganai li'u'' --'''bzzt!''')
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* [[Morphology of ng gotcha]]
 
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* [[Sesame Street kei without ku Gotcha|Sesame Street kei without ku Gotcha]] (e.g. '''lo nu tivni la SEsamis.strit. se tcika li ze''' -'''bzzt!''')
* The other [[jbocre: Unquotable cmavo compound Gotcha|Unquotable cmavo compound Gotcha]] (on same page) (e.g. ''ko'a cusku zo go'i .iku'i fo'i cusku zo nago'i'' --'''bzzt!''')
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* [[long tanru gotcha|long tanru gotcha]]
* [[jbocre: morphology of ng gotcha|morphology of ng gotcha]]
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* [[lerfu pro-sumti followed by number gotcha|lerfu pro-sumti followed by number gotcha]] (e.g. '';le gerku goi gy. paroi cmoni';' -'''bzzt!''')
 
 
* [[jbocre: Sesame Street kei without ku Gotcha|Sesame Street kei without ku Gotcha]] (e.g. ''lenu tivni la SEsamis.strit. se tcika li ze'' --'''bzzt!''')
 
* [[jbocre: long tanru gotcha|long tanru gotcha]]
 
 
 
* [[jbocre: lerfu pro-sumti followed by number gotcha|lerfu pro-sumti followed by number gotcha]] (e.g. ''le gerku goi gy. paroi cmoni'' --'''bzzt!''')
 
 
* [[abstractors with SE and connectives|abstractors with SE and connectives]] (this one's very esoteric)
 
* [[abstractors with SE and connectives|abstractors with SE and connectives]] (this one's very esoteric)
 
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* [[cu needed sometimes when unexpected gotcha|cu needed sometimes when unexpected gotcha]]
* [[jbocre: cu needed sometimes when unexpected gotcha|cu needed sometimes when unexpected gotcha]]
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* [[tense/modal is not equivalent to cu gotcha]]
* [[jbocre: tense/modal is not equivalent to cu gotcha]]
 
 
 
 
Before adding something as a gotcha, make sure it really fits the nebulous definition of a "gotcha". Before thinking that your mistake is a gotcha, please consider: Did you just make a typo? Did you just misunderstand a single aspect of the language, or was there some degree of deeper confusion, caused by the interaction of multiple features of the language? This isn't intended to prevent you from adding your gotcha, merely to make you think about more deeply about the nature of what you're reporting, so that this list doesn't simply become an enumeration of all possible mistakes.
 
Before adding something as a gotcha, make sure it really fits the nebulous definition of a "gotcha". Before thinking that your mistake is a gotcha, please consider: Did you just make a typo? Did you just misunderstand a single aspect of the language, or was there some degree of deeper confusion, caused by the interaction of multiple features of the language? This isn't intended to prevent you from adding your gotcha, merely to make you think about more deeply about the nature of what you're reporting, so that this list doesn't simply become an enumeration of all possible mistakes.
  
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Moved, because not really a Gotcha, and already discussed in [How to say it in Lojban|How to say it in Lojban:
 
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* There is no known, easy way to say what in English is expressed as e.g. "[[The 17 tallest men]]".  If you say "le paze clanyrai nanmu", you are actually saying that each of the 17 men are tallest, implying that they are all the same height.  You have to say "The tallest man, and the second to tallest man, and the third tallest man, and the fourth tallest man ..." etc., ad nauseam.
[[jbocre: Moved, because not really a Gotcha, and already discussed in [jbocre: How to say it in Lojban|How to say it in Lojban]]:]
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**[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:
 
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**:I think the complaint overstated, and wish this had been asked of the [[mailing list|mailing list]] first. The answers compiled under [[The 17 tallest men]] vary, but some of them are reasonably simple, all things considered.
* There is no known, easy way to say what in English is expressed as e.g. "[[jbocre: The 17 tallest men]]".  If you say "le paze clanyrai nanmu", you are actually saying that each of the 17 men are tallest, implying that they are all the same height.  You have to say "The tallest man, and the second to tallest man, and the third tallest man, and the fourth tallest man ..." etc., ad nauseam.
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**[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]:
**''I think the complaint overstated, and wish this had been asked of the [[jbocre: mailing list|mailing list]] first. The answers compiled under [[jbocre: The 17 tallest men]] vary, but some of them are reasonably simple, all things considered.'' -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
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**:Certainly. '''ro lo clani nanmu su'epazemoi''' is very Lojbanic and does not imply that each of them is the tallest. The vast majority of the discussion on that page is about various ways to say "the Nth tallest man" where the fact that N is (at most 17) only complicates matters.
 
 
**''Certainly. '''ro lo clani nanmu su'epazemoi''' is very Lojbanic and does not imply that each of them is the tallest. The vast majority of the discussion on that page is about various ways to say "the Nth tallest man" where the fact that N is (at most 17) only complicates matters.'' -- [[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
 

Latest revision as of 19:26, 25 September 2014

Lojban gotchas, unexpected points to keep in mind

Before adding something as a gotcha, make sure it really fits the nebulous definition of a "gotcha". Before thinking that your mistake is a gotcha, please consider: Did you just make a typo? Did you just misunderstand a single aspect of the language, or was there some degree of deeper confusion, caused by the interaction of multiple features of the language? This isn't intended to prevent you from adding your gotcha, merely to make you think about more deeply about the nature of what you're reporting, so that this list doesn't simply become an enumeration of all possible mistakes.

Moved, because not really a Gotcha, and already discussed in [How to say it in Lojban|How to say it in Lojban:

  • There is no known, easy way to say what in English is expressed as e.g. "The 17 tallest men". If you say "le paze clanyrai nanmu", you are actually saying that each of the 17 men are tallest, implying that they are all the same height. You have to say "The tallest man, and the second to tallest man, and the third tallest man, and the fourth tallest man ..." etc., ad nauseam.
    • nitcion:
      I think the complaint overstated, and wish this had been asked of the mailing list first. The answers compiled under The 17 tallest men vary, but some of them are reasonably simple, all things considered.
    • rab.spir:
      Certainly. ro lo clani nanmu su'epazemoi is very Lojbanic and does not imply that each of them is the tallest. The vast majority of the discussion on that page is about various ways to say "the Nth tallest man" where the fact that N is (at most 17) only complicates matters.