Difference between revisions of "formal definition of moi"

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(→‎Proposed definitions: shuffle proposed definitions, add discussion section)
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=== Discussion ===
 
=== Discussion ===
The second definition (using the third place as a comparison predicate) seems more useful, to avoid surprises and have better correspondence with natlang words like "first", "second", etc. Looking at the [[http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=BPFK_Section:_Numeric_selbri#cmavo_moi_.28MOI.29|BPFK examples]], one of them is '''ma xamoi le te minde i xamoi le te minde fa lo nu na catra''' ("Which is the sixth commandment? The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill."). If moi3 is a unary predicate, then we need a convolution like '''lo ka xokau da se lidne ce'u''' to ensure that '''xamoi''' comes out as "sixth" and not "fourth" (4+6=10). It is more natural to consider moi3 as a binary predicate, so that '''lo xamoi be lo te minde''' implies moi3='''lo ka xukau ce'u ce'u lidne'''. [[User:Durka42|Durka42]] ([[User talk:Durka42|talk]])
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The second definition (using the third place as a comparison predicate) seems more useful, to avoid surprises and have better correspondence with natlang words like "first", "second", etc. Looking at the [[BPFK_Section:_Numeric_selbri#cmavo_moi_.28MOI.29|BPFK examples]], one of them is '''ma xamoi le te minde i xamoi le te minde fa lo nu na catra''' ("Which is the sixth commandment? The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill."). If moi3 is a unary predicate, then we need a convolution like '''lo ka xokau da se lidne ce'u''' to ensure that '''xamoi''' comes out as "sixth" and not "fourth" (4+6=10). It is more natural to consider moi3 as a binary predicate, so that '''lo xamoi be lo te minde''' implies moi3='''lo ka xukau ce'u ce'u lidne'''. [[User:Durka42|Durka42]] ([[User talk:Durka42|talk]])
  
 
== Associative ==
 
== Associative ==

Revision as of 17:37, 26 January 2015

What's the deal with moi?

There are two related ways to use moi:

  1. "numeric moi" (more common) and
  2. "associative moi".

For "numeric moi", there is some debate over the nature of moi3, the ordering rule.

Shown here are various definitions and Lojban expansions by various people.

See also the relevant BPFK section.

Numeric

Proposed definitions

  • x1 x2 x3 Nmoi = for a set x2 containing x1, and a predicate x3 comparing two members of the set, x1 compares as higher than all but N-1 set elements.
    • In Lojban:
      • la durka:
        • ko'a ko'e ko'i xy zo'u lo ka ko'a xy moi ko'e ko'i cu ka ge ko'a cmima ko'e gi vei xy vu'u pa ve'o da poi cmima ko'e gi'e drata ko'a ku'o me'au ko'i ko'a
          • mi pazemoi lo prenu lo ka clamau
          • I am the seventeenth tallest person.
          • .i mi pamoi lo verba lo ka ce'u ce'u darxi
          • No other kids hit me, and I hit all the other kids.
  • x1 x2 x3 Nmoi = for a set x2 containing x1, and a predicate x3 associating members of the set with a numerical value, x1 measures higher than all but N-1 set elements.
    • In Lojban:
      • la durka:
        • ko'a ko'e ko'i xy zo'u lo ka ko'a xy moi ko'e ko'i cu ka ge ko'a cmima ko'e gi vei xy vu'u pa ve'o da poi cmima ko'e gi'e drata ko'a ku'o zmadu ko'a ko'i
          • mi pazemoi lo prenu lo ka clani
          • I am the seventeenth tallest person.
      • la selpa'i:
        • x1 boi N moi x2 boi x3 == x1 me x2 gi'e zmadu da'a N me x2 boi x3
          • mi pa ze moi lo prenu lo ka [ma kau ni] ce'u clani == mi zmadu da'a pa ze lo prenu lo ka [ma kau ni] ce'u clani
          • I am the seventeenth tallest person.

Discussion

The second definition (using the third place as a comparison predicate) seems more useful, to avoid surprises and have better correspondence with natlang words like "first", "second", etc. Looking at the BPFK examples, one of them is ma xamoi le te minde i xamoi le te minde fa lo nu na catra ("Which is the sixth commandment? The sixth commandment is, Thou shalt not kill."). If moi3 is a unary predicate, then we need a convolution like lo ka xokau da se lidne ce'u to ensure that xamoi comes out as "sixth" and not "fourth" (4+6=10). It is more natural to consider moi3 as a binary predicate, so that lo xamoi be lo te minde implies moi3=lo ka xukau ce'u ce'u lidne. Durka42 (talk)

Associative

Proposed definitions

  • la selpa'i:
    • x1 me SUMTI moi x2 boi x3 == x1 me x2 gi'e ckini SUMTI x3
      • ti me la .alis. moi lo prenu lo ka speni
      • This is Alice's of the people in that they are married.