https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&feed=atom&action=historyfa'a as orientation - Revision history2024-03-28T21:51:29ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113127&oldid=prevGleki at 06:43, 28 April 20152015-04-28T06:43:12Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:43, 28 April 2015</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l81">Line 81:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Anything not clear in the book may be made clear in the dictionary or textbook when written, but only in response to clear usage supporting the form. The intent for such semantic issues is to "let usage decide".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Anything not clear in the book may be made clear in the dictionary or textbook when written, but only in response to clear usage supporting the form. The intent for such semantic issues is to "let usage decide".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**The dictionary therefore CANNOT rule that '''fa'a''' is locational without usage supporting it. Sorry, but the usage opposes it.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**The dictionary therefore CANNOT rule that '''fa'a''' is locational without usage supporting it. Sorry, but the usage opposes it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8653, the use of '''fa'a''' in Alice in Wonderland is discussed as referring to the direction of the event (the 'directional' interpretation) as opposed to the direction to the event (the 'locational' interpretation).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8653, the use of '''fa'a''' in Alice in Wonderland is discussed as referring to the direction of the event (the 'directional' interpretation) as opposed to the direction to the event (the 'locational' interpretation).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Furthermore, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8611 gives an example of '''fa'a''' being used directionally. During the resulting thread, no-one disagrees and one person comments on my "good use of '''fa'a'''"! The '''fa'a''' sentence in question is '''.i se lafti le terdi fa'a le tsani''' - ''it rises from the earth toward the heavens''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Furthermore, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8611 gives an example of '''fa'a''' being used directionally. During the resulting thread, no-one disagrees and one person comments on my "good use of '''fa'a'''"! The '''fa'a''' sentence in question is '''.i se lafti le terdi fa'a le tsani''' - ''it rises from the earth toward the heavens''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Lojbab has commanded us to "let usage decide". So let's "let usage decide". Usage has spoken. The forthcoming dictionary is wrong. And it is not to be published with clarifications not supported by usage. "Let usage decide" what it already has - fa'a refers to the direction of the event.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Lojbab has commanded us to "let usage decide". So let's "let usage decide". Usage has spoken. The forthcoming dictionary is wrong. And it is not to be published with clarifications not supported by usage. "Let usage decide" what it already has - fa'a refers to the direction of the event.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***It is possible for us to decide that usage has decided something incorrectly, and usage henceforth shall be different. This has just happened with {{vlapoi|ka}} (countering, I should note, both existing usage and what Lojbab wanted.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***It is possible for us to decide that usage has decided something incorrectly, and usage henceforth shall be different. This has just happened with {{vlapoi|ka}} (countering, I should note, both existing usage and what Lojbab wanted.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***"Good use of {{vlapoi|fa'a}} was from xorxes, because he hasn't (hadn't?) changed his mind. That doesn't necessarily reflect a more general understanding of {{vlapoi|fa'a}}. And you didn't say anything because...?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***"Good use of {{vlapoi|fa'a}} was from xorxes, because he hasn't (hadn't?) changed his mind. That doesn't necessarily reflect a more general understanding of {{vlapoi|fa'a}}. And you didn't say anything because...?</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Although not fitting too systematically with FAhA (most of whose members are (just) "local" indicators) {{jvs|fa'a}} is clearly defined as "orientation", i.e. "static direction" as opposed to "mobil direction" (see p. 253 of the Book: "without {{jvs|mo'i}} / with {{jvs|mo'i}}). There indeed are some more members of FAhA that aren't just "static" (like {{jvs|ni'a}} and many others) but "static direction" like {jvs|fa'a}}: {{jvs|to'o}}, {{jvs|zo'i}}, {jvs|ze'o}} what is "orientation"!</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Although not fitting too systematically with FAhA (most of whose members are (just) "local" indicators) {{jvs|fa'a}} is clearly defined as "orientation", i.e. "static direction" as opposed to "mobil direction" (see p. 253 of the Book: "without {{jvs|mo'i}} / with {{jvs|mo'i}}). There indeed are some more members of FAhA that aren't just "static" (like {{jvs|ni'a}} and many others) but "static direction" like {jvs|fa'a}}: {{jvs|to'o}}, {{jvs|zo'i}}, {jvs|ze'o}} what is "orientation"!</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**It is a glaring fact and quite obvious, that the Book's (l.c.) misleading when listing e.g. ''forward'', ''backward'', ... ''upward(ly)'', ''downward(ly)'' etc. in the column "with '''mo'i'''" and others like ''towards'', ... ''inward (from)'' etc. (having the same forms in English!) in the column under "without '''mo'i'''", but to me it's always been pretty clear and 'natural' to take the "static+direction" FAhAs as what they are: "orientation", hence '''fa'a''' in the sense of ''facing/looking at/turned toward''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**It is a glaring fact and quite obvious, that the Book's (l.c.) misleading when listing e.g. ''forward'', ''backward'', ... ''upward(ly)'', ''downward(ly)'' etc. in the column "with '''mo'i'''" and others like ''towards'', ... ''inward (from)'' etc. (having the same forms in English!) in the column under "without '''mo'i'''", but to me it's always been pretty clear and 'natural' to take the "static+direction" FAhAs as what they are: "orientation", hence '''fa'a''' in the sense of ''facing/looking at/turned toward''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu fa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere - not a very good example)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu fa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere - not a very good example)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu mo'ifa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere while moving - not better a phrase)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu mo'ifa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere while moving - not better a phrase)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla fa'a mi''' (is talking toward me/in my direction)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu tavla fa'a mi''' (is talking toward me/in my direction)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'ifa'a mi''' (is talking while moving towards me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'ifa'a mi''' (is talking while moving towards me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'i mi''' (is talking while moving to me - not sure whether '''mo'i''' works without a "static" or "static+direction"-FAhA attached).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'i mi''' (is talking while moving to me - not sure whether '''mo'i''' works without a "static" or "static+direction"-FAhA attached).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama mi''' (is coming to me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu klama mi''' (is coming to me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama fa'a mi''' (is going somewhere facing me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu klama fa'a mi''' (is going somewhere facing me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama fa'ani'a mi''' (is going somewhere - facing downward toward me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu klama fa'ani'a mi''' (is going somewhere - facing downward toward me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama do fa'ani'a mi''' (is going to you facing downward towards me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu klama do fa'ani'a mi''' (is going to you facing downward towards me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama mo'ini'a mi''' (is going somewhere - here most probably to me - while moving downward toward me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu klama mo'ini'a mi''' (is going somewhere - here most probably to me - while moving downward toward me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama do mo'ini'a mi''' (is going to you while moving downward toward me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno cu klama do mo'ini'a mi''' (is going to you while moving downward toward me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno mo'ini'a klama mi''' (is coming downward to me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno mo'ini'a klama mi''' (is coming downward to me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno ni'a klama mi''' (is coming downward to me) - think it'll work without '''mo'i'''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno ni'a klama mi''' (is coming downward to me) - think it'll work without '''mo'i'''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**No! It's: ''(beneath the speaker) coming to me''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>**No! It's: ''(beneath the speaker) coming to me''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno mo'ini'a klama do''' (is going - downward from me/the speaker - to you)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*'''le citno mo'ini'a klama do''' (is going - downward from me/the speaker - to you)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**A "verb" already expressing motion doesn't need an additional movement indicator '''mo'i''', what would be tautology. But there are those too that have already built-in ''motion+direction'' (e.g. "rise", "fall" etc.) and for that reason don't need '''mo'i''' nor '''fa'a'''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**A "verb" already expressing motion doesn't need an additional movement indicator '''mo'i''', what would be tautology. But there are those too that have already built-in ''motion+direction'' (e.g. "rise", "fall" etc.) and for that reason don't need '''mo'i''' nor '''fa'a'''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Changed my mind: since '''mo'i''' does exist in Lojban, it has to be used for unambiguity's sake!</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Changed my mind: since '''mo'i''' does exist in Lojban, it has to be used for unambiguity's sake!</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113126&oldid=prevGleki at 06:41, 28 April 20152015-04-28T06:41:45Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:41, 28 April 2015</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{jbocre/en}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{jbocre<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">/en}}{{se inspekte</ins>/en}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{See also|Go outside}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{See also|Go outside}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l121">Line 121:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See also [[Elephant|Elephant]], [[Great Dictionary Problem|Great Dictionary Problem]], [[The Lojban Dictionary|The Lojban Dictionary]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See also [[Elephant|Elephant]], [[Great Dictionary Problem|Great Dictionary Problem]], [[The Lojban Dictionary|The Lojban Dictionary]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[.aulun.]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[.aulun.]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Although not fitting too systematically with FAhA (most of whose members are (just) "local" indicators) {{jvs|fa'a}} is clearly defined as <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>orientation<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>i.e. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>static direction<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>as opposed to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>mobil direction<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>(see p. 253 of the Book: "without {{jvs|mo'i}} / with {{jvs|mo'i}}). There indeed are some more members of FAhA that aren't just <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>static<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>(like {{jvs|ni'a}} and many others) but <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> ''</del>static direction<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>like {jvs|fa'a}}: {{jvs|to'o}}, {{jvs|zo'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">iЪ</del>}, {jvs|ze'o}} what is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>orientation<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>!</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Although not fitting too systematically with FAhA (most of whose members are (just) "local" indicators) {{jvs|fa'a}} is clearly defined as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>orientation<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">", </ins>i.e. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>static direction<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </ins>as opposed to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>mobil direction<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </ins>(see p. 253 of the Book: "without {{jvs|mo'i}} / with {{jvs|mo'i}}). There indeed are some more members of FAhA that aren't just <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>static<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </ins>(like {{jvs|ni'a}} and many others) but <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>static direction<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </ins>like {jvs|fa'a}}: {{jvs|to'o}}, {{jvs|zo'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i}</ins>}, {jvs|ze'o}} what is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>orientation<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>!</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**It is a glaring fact and quite obvious, that the Book's (l.c.) misleading when listing e.g. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>forward<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>backward<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>, ... <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>upward(ly)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>downward(ly)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </del>etc. in the column "with '''mo'i'''" and others like <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>towards<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>, ... <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>inward (from)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </del>etc. (having the same forms in English!) in the column under "without '''mo'i'''", but to me it's always been pretty clear and 'natural' to take the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>static+direction<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>FAhAs as what they are: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</del>orientation<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</del>, hence '''fa'a''' in the sense of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>facing/looking at/turned toward<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**It is a glaring fact and quite obvious, that the Book's (l.c.) misleading when listing e.g. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>forward<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>backward<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, ... <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>upward(ly)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>downward(ly)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </ins>etc. in the column "with '''mo'i'''" and others like <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>towards<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, ... <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>inward (from)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </ins>etc. (having the same forms in English!) in the column under "without '''mo'i'''", but to me it's always been pretty clear and 'natural' to take the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>static+direction<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </ins>FAhAs as what they are: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>orientation<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>, hence '''fa'a''' in the sense of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>facing/looking at/turned toward<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu fa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere - not a very good example)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu fa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere - not a very good example)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu mo'ifa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere while moving - not better a phrase)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu mo'ifa'a tavla''' (is talking directed to somewhere while moving - not better a phrase)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla fa'a mi''' (is talking toward me/in my direction)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla fa'a mi''' (is talking toward me/in my direction)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'ifa'a mi''' (is talking while moving towards me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'ifa'a mi''' (is talking while moving towards me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'i mi''' (is talking while moving to me - not sure whether '''mo'i''' works without a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>static<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>or <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>static+direction<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>-FAhA attached).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu tavla mo'i mi''' (is talking while moving to me - not sure whether '''mo'i''' works without a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>static<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </ins>or <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>static+direction<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>-FAhA attached).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama mi''' (is coming to me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama mi''' (is coming to me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama fa'a mi''' (is going somewhere facing me)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno cu klama fa'a mi''' (is going somewhere facing me)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l138">Line 138:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**No! It's: ''(beneath the speaker) coming to me''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**No! It's: ''(beneath the speaker) coming to me''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno mo'ini'a klama do''' (is going - downward from me/the speaker - to you)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*'''le citno mo'ini'a klama do''' (is going - downward from me/the speaker - to you)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**A "verb" already expressing motion doesn't need an additional movement indicator <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</del>'''mo'i''', what would be tautology. But there are those too that have already built-in ''motion+direction'' (e.g. "rise", "fall" etc.) and for that reason don't need '''mo'i''' nor '''fa'a'''. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(</del>Changed my mind: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Since </del>'''mo'i''' does exist in Lojban, it has to be used for unambiguity's sake!<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**A "verb" already expressing motion doesn't need an additional movement indicator '''mo'i''', what would be tautology. But there are those too that have already built-in ''motion+direction'' (e.g. "rise", "fall" etc.) and for that reason don't need '''mo'i''' nor '''fa'a'''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>Changed my mind: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">since </ins>'''mo'i''' does exist in Lojban, it has to be used for unambiguity's sake!</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**[[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**[[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Rise ({{vlapoi|se|lafti}} (''be lifted'') is what I used in my Emerald Tablet translation) does not have a place for the thing being risen to. I have actually taken to thinking of '''fa'a''' as if it were a BAI (adding a place for ''in the direction of''), which works just as well and shows how silly our numerous selma'o are.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Rise ({{vlapoi|se|lafti}} (''be lifted'') is what I used in my Emerald Tablet translation) does not have a place for the thing being risen to. I have actually taken to thinking of '''fa'a''' as if it were a BAI (adding a place for ''in the direction of''), which works just as well and shows how silly our numerous selma'o are.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113125&oldid=prevGleki at 06:36, 28 April 20152015-04-28T06:36:55Z<p></p>
<a href="https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113125&oldid=113124">Show changes</a>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113124&oldid=prevGleki at 06:00, 28 April 20152015-04-28T06:00:49Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:00, 28 April 2015</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==== Archived Discussion ====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==== Archived Discussion ====</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>===== Reference Grammar references =====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>===== Reference Grammar references =====</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==== =Usage =====</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>===== Usage =====</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ensuing discussion raises objections to definitions 1a, 3a, which were the only definitions originally posted. This is an attempt to account for both the (a) and the (b) approaches to fa'a, as an [[Elephant|Elephant]]-like scheme. I <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(nitcion) </del>haven't finished writing this; please indicate any changes you make to the above clearly.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[la nitcion]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>Ensuing discussion raises objections to definitions 1a, 3a, which were the only definitions originally posted. This is an attempt to account for both the (a) and the (b) approaches to fa'a, as an [[Elephant|Elephant]]-like scheme. I haven't finished writing this; please indicate any changes you make to the above clearly.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Notice that with this definition, in examples 1, 2, 3, and 5, removing {{vlapoi|fa'a}} or {{vlapoi|to'o}} leaves the sentence with the same meaning. {{vlapoi|fa'a}} adds nothing at all. Even in example 4, {{vlapoi|fa'a}} is nothing but a place holder. Apparently a bare {{vlapoi|mo'i}} is not grammatical (?!), but {{vlapoi|mo'i}} by itself already contains the sense of towards, {{vlapoi|mo'ini'a}} is {{vlapoi|downwards}}, not {{vlapoi|moving|while|down}}.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>Notice that with this definition, in examples 1, 2, 3, and 5, removing {{vlapoi|fa'a}} or {{vlapoi|to'o}} leaves the sentence with the same meaning. {{vlapoi|fa'a}} adds nothing at all. Even in example 4, {{vlapoi|fa'a}} is nothing but a place holder. Apparently a bare {{vlapoi|mo'i}} is not grammatical (?!), but {{vlapoi|mo'i}} by itself already contains the sense of towards, {{vlapoi|mo'ini'a}} is {{vlapoi|downwards}}, not {{vlapoi|moving|while|down}}.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Conclusion: with this definition, {{vlapoi|fa'a}} is an empty word. No wonder no examples of usage can be found with this meaning.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>Conclusion: with this definition, {{vlapoi|fa'a}} is an empty word. No wonder no examples of usage can be found with this meaning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Yup; completely agreed. All that is preserved is symmetry with all other FAhA (which, in fact, the entry above is prototyping.) Is the symmetry important enough to preserve for fa'a? Some think yes, some think no. Hence (though I am annoyed about it) I am obligated to write two definitions. And the dictionary will also have to include two definitions for ka, and for vo'a, and for si'o, and for anything there is pending controversy over. ... Which for me is a very, very big minus for the language<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>*Yup; completely agreed. All that is preserved is symmetry with all other FAhA (which, in fact, the entry above is prototyping.) Is the symmetry important enough to preserve for fa'a? Some think yes, some think no. Hence (though I am annoyed about it) I am obligated to write two definitions. And the dictionary will also have to include two definitions for ka, and for vo'a, and for si'o, and for anything there is pending controversy over. ... Which for me is a very, very big minus for the language.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Re position 1a:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>Re position 1a:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Lojban Central has gone on record as thinking that it was <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{vlapoi|'</del>intended<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}' </del>to mean this; what it actually means is not yet documented, any more than any other usage (or non-usage). I think that the consistent way to deal with orientation, if it were to be a part of tense constructs, would be to add an experimental cmavo (fa'a'a for exemplary purposes) to MOhI. Most orientations that one would want to express probably are covered by the other members of FAhA. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>Thus we would have:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**lojbab:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***ni'a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>beneath</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>**Lojban Central has gone on record as thinking that it was <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>intended<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>to mean this; what it actually means is not yet documented, any more than any other usage (or non-usage). I think that the consistent way to deal with orientation, if it were to be a part of tense constructs, would be to add an experimental cmavo (<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>fa'a'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>for exemplary purposes) to MOhI. Most orientations that one would want to express probably are covered by the other members of FAhA. Thus we would have:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***mo'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ini</del>'a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>moving downward</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*{{jvs|</ins>ni'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}} = </ins>beneath</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***fa'a'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ani</del>'a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>oriented downward</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*{{vlapoi|</ins>mo'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i|ni</ins>'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}} = </ins>moving downward</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">;;:</del>Thus we could speak of an event that is beneath the reference, oriented forward, and moving to the left. The baseline grammar would split two MOhI constructs into separate sumti, so the ideal non-baseline solution would be a third optional component of a tense besides space and space_motion for space_orientation, with fa'a'a serving as the tag for this component as MOhI serves for motion. But that is something that could wait for post-baseline to implement, if orientation came to actually be used, given that the current grammar allows a clumsy form with experimental cmavo use in MOhI. (I am not actually proposing fa'a'a, because I'm not convinced that orientation needs to be a part of tense. If Nick or others can identify natural languages that express orientation tense-ly, I would probably feel more sympathy with the idea, since the idea in the tense system was to accomodate as many ways of looking at the world through tense as could be expressed in natural language, as possible, so as to not impose metaphysical bias.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">) -- lojbab</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*'''</ins>fa'a'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a''' {{jvs|ni</ins>'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}} = </ins>oriented downward</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Your criterion that a natural language should include orientation in its tense system, for you to consider fa'a as marking orientation in tense, is bull. We aren't designing Aymara. We're designing Lojban, a language which has gone ahead and made tenses of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</del>everything<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</del>, which natural languages don't do. If it is internally consistent for Lojban to also make orientation tenses, then what natlangs happen to do is irrelevant. Lojban shall do what we want it to do, not merely what people have come up with in natlangs so far. Don't impose the metaphysical biases of what has been done already, either. And remember that Lojban has to be internally consistent to work as a language, not merely be a hodge podge of hither and thither linguistic features. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>Thus we could speak of an event that is beneath the reference, oriented forward, and moving to the left. The baseline grammar would split two MOhI constructs into separate sumti, so the ideal non-baseline solution would be a third optional component of a tense besides space and space_motion for space_orientation, with fa'a'a serving as the tag for this component as MOhI serves for motion. But that is something that could wait for post-baseline to implement, if orientation came to actually be used, given that the current grammar allows a clumsy form with experimental cmavo use in MOhI. (I am not actually proposing fa'a'a, because I'm not convinced that orientation needs to be a part of tense. If Nick or others can identify natural languages that express orientation tense-ly, I would probably feel more sympathy with the idea, since the idea in the tense system was to accomodate as many ways of looking at the world through tense as could be expressed in natural language, as possible, so as to not impose metaphysical bias<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(This should probably thread off somewhere else)</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*****</ins>Your criterion that a natural language should include orientation in its tense system, for you to consider fa'a as marking orientation in tense, is bull. We aren't designing Aymara. We're designing Lojban, a language which has gone ahead and made tenses of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>everything<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u></ins>, which natural languages don't do. If it is internally consistent for Lojban to also make orientation tenses, then what natlangs happen to do is irrelevant. Lojban shall do what we want it to do, not merely what people have come up with in natlangs so far. Don't impose the metaphysical biases of what has been done already, either. And remember that Lojban has to be internally consistent to work as a language, not merely be a hodge podge of hither and thither linguistic features.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">What the heck? to quote [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]'s </del>[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8610 comments on the mailing list]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Complementing </ins>[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8610 comments on the mailing list]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{vlapoi </del>Anything not clear in the book may be made clear in the dictionary or textbook when written, but only in response to clear usage supporting the form. The intent for such semantic issues is to "let usage decide".<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>Anything not clear in the book may be made clear in the dictionary or textbook when written, but only in response to clear usage supporting the form. The intent for such semantic issues is to "let usage decide".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The dictionary therefore CANNOT rule that fa'a is locational without usage supporting it. Sorry, but the usage opposes it.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>The dictionary therefore CANNOT rule that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>is locational without usage supporting it. Sorry, but the usage opposes it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8653, the use of fa'a in Alice in Wonderland is discussed as referring to the direction of the event (the 'directional' interpretation) as opposed to the direction to the event (the 'locational' interpretation).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8653, the use of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>in Alice in Wonderland is discussed as referring to the direction of the event (the 'directional' interpretation) as opposed to the direction to the event (the 'locational' interpretation).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Furthermore, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8611 gives an example of fa'a being used directionally. During the resulting thread, no-one disagrees and one person comments on my <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</del>good use of fa'a'! The fa'a sentence in question is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>.i se lafti le terdi fa'a le tsani<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </del>- it rises from the earth toward the heavens.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Furthermore, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8611 gives an example of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>being used directionally. During the resulting thread, no-one disagrees and one person comments on my <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</ins>good use of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>fa'a'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''"</ins>! The <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>sentence in question is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>.i se lafti le terdi fa'a le tsani<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>- <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>it rises from the earth toward the heavens<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Lojbab has commanded us to "let usage decide". So let's "let usage decide". Usage has spoken. The forthcoming dictionary is wrong. And it is not to be published with clarifications not supported by usage. "Let usage decide" what it already has - fa'a refers to the direction of the event.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">- la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>Lojbab has commanded us to "let usage decide". So let's "let usage decide". Usage has spoken. The forthcoming dictionary is wrong. And it is not to be published with clarifications not supported by usage. "Let usage decide" what it already has - fa'a refers to the direction of the event.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#It is possible for us to decide that usage has decided something incorrectly, and usage henceforth shall be different. This has just happened with {{vlapoi|ka}} (countering, I should note, both existing usage and what Lojbab wanted.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#It is possible for us to decide that usage has decided something incorrectly, and usage henceforth shall be different. This has just happened with {{vlapoi|ka}} (countering, I should note, both existing usage and what Lojbab wanted.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#"Good use of {{vlapoi|fa'a}} was from xorxes, because he hasn't (hadn't?) changed his mind. That doesn't necessarily reflect a more general understanding of {{vlapoi|fa'a}}. And you didn't say anything because...?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#"Good use of {{vlapoi|fa'a}} was from xorxes, because he hasn't (hadn't?) changed his mind. That doesn't necessarily reflect a more general understanding of {{vlapoi|fa'a}}. And you didn't say anything because...?</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113123&oldid=prevGleki at 13:50, 26 April 20152015-04-26T13:50:50Z<p></p>
<a href="https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113123&oldid=113122">Show changes</a>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113122&oldid=prevGleki at 13:32, 26 April 20152015-04-26T13:32:39Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:32, 26 April 2015</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l29">Line 29:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*****{{vlapoi|mo'i|fa'a}} could indicate that the referent is rotating to a position that is described as '''fa'a'''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*****{{vlapoi|mo'i|fa'a}} could indicate that the referent is rotating to a position that is described as '''fa'a'''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>===POSITION 2===</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>===POSITION 2===</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>It may be useful, however, to draw a distinction between stationary <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''to'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'': the point P would be closer to the deictic <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">center </ins>than R for the former, and further away for the latter (Example 5).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>It may be useful, however, to draw a distinction between stationary ''fa'a'' and ''to'o'': the point P would be closer to the deictic <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">centre </del>than R for the former, and further away for the latter (Example 5).<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins>PRO<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>PRO<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* TBA</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* TBA</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins>CON<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>CON<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* TBA</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* TBA</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">===</ins>POSITION 3a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">===</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>POSITION 3a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>When the referent is already known to be moving, the presence of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mo'i<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' is orthogonal to that movement. Thus, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mo'i<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' is obligatory in specifying the direction of that movement. Without <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mo'i<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', ''fa'a'' only specifies the location at which the movement is occuring (Example 6a, 7a, not 6b, 7b)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>When the referent is already known to be moving, the presence of ''mo'i'' is orthogonal to that movement. Thus, ''mo'i'' is obligatory in specifying the direction of that movement. Without ''mo'i'', ''fa'a'' only specifies the location at which the movement is occuring<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. </del>(Example 6a, 7a, not 6b, 7b)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>PRO:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>PRO:</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113121&oldid=prevGleki at 13:24, 26 April 20152015-04-26T13:24:16Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:24, 26 April 2015</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>====CON====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>====CON====</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*TBA</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*TBA</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>In the case of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{vlapoi|</ins>mo'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i|fa</ins>'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}</ins>, the referent is described as moving along the line PR. Without <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mo'i<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', the condition that the referent is on a line PR is trivial, since P is arbitrary and only R is potentially fixed (Under position 1b, however, the orientation towards R is itself of interest<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In the case of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>mo'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ifa</del>'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>, the referent is described as moving along the line PR. Without ''mo'i'', the condition that the referent is on a line PR is trivial, since P is arbitrary and only R is potentially fixed<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. '''</del>(Under position 1b, however, the orientation towards R is itself of interest.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)'''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>**How does this square with the consistency position of 1a? <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{vlapoi|</ins>mo'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i|ni</ins>'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}} </ins>describes a movement towards the location indicated by <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ni'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''. To be consistent, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''mo'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i fa</ins>'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' should describe a movement towards the location indicated by <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', not along some direction which presumably <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' does not indicate.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**How does this square with the consistency position of 1a? <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>mo'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ini</del>'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>describes a movement towards the location indicated by ''ni'a''. To be consistent, ''mo'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ifa</del>'a'' should describe a movement towards the location indicated by ''fa'a'', not along some direction which presumably ''fa'a'' does not indicate. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--mi'e </del>[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">User:xorxes</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">xorxes</del>]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>[[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Pierre Abbat</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.pier.</ins>]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***{</ins>{<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">vlapoi|</ins>mo'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i|fa</ins>'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}</ins>} could indicate that the referent is rotating to a position that is described as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>fa'a'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**{mo'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ifa</del>'a} could indicate that the referent is rotating to a position that is described as <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>fa'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}. -- mi</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e [[Pierre Abbat|</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pier.]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">===</ins>POSITION 2<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">===</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>POSITION 2<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>'''It may be useful, however, to draw a distinction between stationary ''fa'a'' and ''to'o'': the point P would be closer to the deictic centre than R for the former, and further away for the latter (Example 5).'''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>'''It may be useful, however, to draw a distinction between stationary ''fa'a'' and ''to'o'': the point P would be closer to the deictic centre than R for the former, and further away for the latter (Example 5).'''</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=113120&oldid=prevGleki at 13:21, 26 April 20152015-04-26T13:21:22Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:21, 26 April 2015</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{jbocre/en}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{jbocre/en}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>See also <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[Go outside</del>|Go outside<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]]''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{</ins>See also|Go outside<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ISSUE: DEFINITION OF fa'a</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''fa'a'' is a spatial tense modal, of [[selma'o|selma'o]] FAhA, which like other FAhA modals describes the location of a referent in space relative to some target, R. Unlike other FAhA modals, that location is not also described relative to a deictic centre (typically the speaker.)</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">POSITION 1a</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''The referent is described as situated on a two-dimensional line between some point P and R. (This is in contrast with ''zo'i'', which describes the referent as located on a line between the deictic centre and R.)'''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''Despite its etymology (''farna'' 'direction'), ''fa'a'' does not describing the direction or orientation of its referent, but only its location. (Example 3a, not 3b)'''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">PRO:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">==ISSUE: DEFINITION OF {{jvs|fa'a}}==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''fa'a''' is a spatial tense modal, of [[selma'o|selma'o]] FAhA, which like other FAhA modals describes the location of a referent in space relative to some target, R. Unlike other FAhA modals, that location is not also described relative to a deictic center (typically the speaker).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">===POSITION 1a===</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*The referent is described as situated on a two-dimensional line between some point P and R.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**This is in contrast with '''zo'i''', which describes the referent as located on a line between the deictic centre and R.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Despite its etymology ('''farna''' - ''is a direction''), '''fa'a''' does not describe the direction or orientation of its referent, but only its location (Example 3a, not 3b).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====PRO====</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Consistency with other FAhA cmavo</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Consistency with other FAhA cmavo</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This meaning is the only meaning predicted by the baseline</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This meaning is the only meaning predicted by the baseline</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Lojban Central has gone on record as thinking it means this</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Lojban Central has gone on record as thinking it means this</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins>CON<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>CON<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Makes <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' on its own fairly useless</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Makes ''fa'a'' on its own fairly useless</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Doesn't give a ready means of expressing orientation</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Doesn't give a ready means of expressing orientation</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">===</ins>POSITION 1b<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">===</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>POSITION 1b</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>The referent is described as being oriented along a two-dimensional line between some point P and R, with that orientation pointing at R.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>This is in contrast with <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''zo'i<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', which describes the referent as oriented on a line between the deictic centre and R.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>The referent is described as being oriented along a two-dimensional line between some point P and R, with that orientation pointing at R. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(</del>This is in contrast with ''zo'i'', which describes the referent as oriented on a line between the deictic centre and R.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)'''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>The etymology (<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''farna'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' - </ins>''direction<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>') of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fa'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' supersedes the pattern set by the other members of selma'o FAhA (Example 3b, not 3a)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins>PRO<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>The etymology (''farna'' 'direction') of ''fa'a'' supersedes the pattern set by the other members of selma'o FAhA<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. </del>(Example 3b, not 3a)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>PRO<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* TBA</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* TBA</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins>CON<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">====</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>CON<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">:</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*TBA</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*TBA</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=92826&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: " to ""2014-03-23T16:21:46Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: " to ""</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:21, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l158">Line 158:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Lojbab has commanded us to '''let usage decide'''. So let's '''let usage decide'''. Usage has spoken. The forthcoming dictionary is ''wrong.'' And it is not to be published with clarifications not supported by usage. '''Let usage decide''' what it already has - fa'a refers to the direction of the event.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Lojbab has commanded us to '''let usage decide'''. So let's '''let usage decide'''. Usage has spoken. The forthcoming dictionary is ''wrong.'' And it is not to be published with clarifications not supported by usage. '''Let usage decide''' what it already has - fa'a refers to the direction of the event.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>- la [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>- la [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#It is possible for us to decide that usage has decided something incorrectly, and usage henceforth shall be different. This has '''just happened''' with ''ka'' (countering, I should note, both existing usage and what Lojbab wanted.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#It is possible for us to decide that usage has decided something incorrectly, and usage henceforth shall be different. This has '''just happened''' with ''ka'' (countering, I should note, both existing usage and what Lojbab wanted.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l194">Line 194:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** mo'i was added because we '''did''' have examples of motion expressed in tense in natural language. Way back in the beginning, [[pc|pc]] and I catalogued all the ways that we thought someone might want to express in tense, using pc's expertise as a tense logician and linguist. We apparently did not think of orientation distinct from position, or perhaps we did and pc felt that we should allow that to be expressed with a subordinate bridi, that being the always-workable alternative to tenses and modals. John Cowan reworked my original more clumsy tense design to be more explainable, and in so doing may have rendered some words like fa'a alone to seem superfluous. But by that time we were averse to removing words or features from the language without a reason that they were a negative feature. -- lojbab</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** mo'i was added because we '''did''' have examples of motion expressed in tense in natural language. Way back in the beginning, [[pc|pc]] and I catalogued all the ways that we thought someone might want to express in tense, using pc's expertise as a tense logician and linguist. We apparently did not think of orientation distinct from position, or perhaps we did and pc felt that we should allow that to be expressed with a subordinate bridi, that being the always-workable alternative to tenses and modals. John Cowan reworked my original more clumsy tense design to be more explainable, and in so doing may have rendered some words like fa'a alone to seem superfluous. But by that time we were averse to removing words or features from the language without a reason that they were a negative feature. -- lojbab</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I found it rather clear - mo'i is only elided when the event is already one of moving. After all, we don't say things like ''lenu muvdu cu muvdu'', do we? I have never had cause to describe a motion as being moving outside of hypothetical questions about math or physics. Thus, since mo'i has that meaning, that the event is moving, it makes movement sentences quite confusing. Besides, the direction of the raising in my example is toward heaven. It rises, and the direction of the rising is toward heaven. That is as much direction rather than mo'ifa'a-type movement as speaking with the direction of the speaking being a microphone. The fact that it is moving just obfuscates that, but we want to discuss the direction of movement, not the movement of the movement. - mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I found it rather clear - mo'i is only elided when the event is already one of moving. After all, we don't say things like ''lenu muvdu cu muvdu'', do we? I have never had cause to describe a motion as being moving outside of hypothetical questions about math or physics. Thus, since mo'i has that meaning, that the event is moving, it makes movement sentences quite confusing. Besides, the direction of the raising in my example is toward heaven. It rises, and the direction of the rising is toward heaven. That is as much direction rather than mo'ifa'a-type movement as speaking with the direction of the speaking being a microphone. The fact that it is moving just obfuscates that, but we want to discuss the direction of movement, not the movement of the movement. - mi'e [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****Speaking of the motion of a predicate of moving sounds like the sort of thing that could be very useful in talking about relativity theory and thought experiments. Perhaps someone could try testing this arena of Lojban tense design with a translation/description of one of the thought experiments that went into Einstein's work. -- lojbab</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****Speaking of the motion of a predicate of moving sounds like the sort of thing that could be very useful in talking about relativity theory and thought experiments. Perhaps someone could try testing this arena of Lojban tense design with a translation/description of one of the thought experiments that went into Einstein's work. -- lojbab</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***** Then there will be yet more usage supporting the idea that ''"mi muvdu mo'ifa'a le zdani"'' will mean "I move, and the movement is itself moving toward the house," - and to say "I move toward the house," one uses ''"mi muvdu fa'a le zdani."'' - mi'e. [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***** Then there will be yet more usage supporting the idea that ''"mi muvdu mo'ifa'a le zdani"'' will mean "I move, and the movement is itself moving toward the house," - and to say "I move toward the house," one uses ''"mi muvdu fa'a le zdani."'' - mi'e. [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In any case, I will draw up a dictionary entry including both proposed senses -- location and direction --- and still rejecting with prejudice anything properly covered by mo'ifa'a. This entry will include examples from usage (which I suspect will all go to direction for fa'a), and arguments pro and con both proposals. Hopefully, that will be less noxious to you. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In any case, I will draw up a dictionary entry including both proposed senses -- location and direction --- and still rejecting with prejudice anything properly covered by mo'ifa'a. This entry will include examples from usage (which I suspect will all go to direction for fa'a), and arguments pro and con both proposals. Hopefully, that will be less noxious to you. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l235">Line 235:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A "verb" already expressing motion doesn't need an additional movement indicator {mo'i}, what would be tautology. But there are those too that have already built-in ''motion+direction'' (e.g. "rise", "fall" etc.) and for that reason don't need {mo'i} nor {fa'a}. (Changed my mind: Since {mo'i} does exist in Lojban, it has to be used for unambiguity's sake!)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A "verb" already expressing motion doesn't need an additional movement indicator {mo'i}, what would be tautology. But there are those too that have already built-in ''motion+direction'' (e.g. "rise", "fall" etc.) and for that reason don't need {mo'i} nor {fa'a}. (Changed my mind: Since {mo'i} does exist in Lojban, it has to be used for unambiguity's sake!)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Rise (''se lafti'' "be lifted" is what I used in my Emerald Tablet translation) does not have a place for the thing being risen to. I have actually taken to thinking of fa'a as if it were a BAI (adding a place for ''in the direction of''), which works just as well and shows how silly our numerous selma'o are. - mi'e. [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Rise (''se lafti'' "be lifted" is what I used in my Emerald Tablet translation) does not have a place for the thing being risen to. I have actually taken to thinking of fa'a as if it were a BAI (adding a place for ''in the direction of''), which works just as well and shows how silly our numerous selma'o are. - mi'e. [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** If fa'a were a BAI, you couldn't combine it with other directions, which shows just how silly complaining about selma'o is. --[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** If fa'a were a BAI, you couldn't combine it with other directions, which shows just how silly complaining about selma'o is. --[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=fa%27a_as_orientation&diff=92340&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T15:41:19Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:41, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l42">Line 42:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**How does this square with the consistency position of 1a? ''mo'ini'a'' describes a movement towards the location indicated by ''ni'a''. To be consistent, ''mo'ifa'a'' should describe a movement towards the location indicated by ''fa'a'', not along some direction which presumably ''fa'a'' does not indicate. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**How does this square with the consistency position of 1a? ''mo'ini'a'' describes a movement towards the location indicated by ''ni'a''. To be consistent, ''mo'ifa'a'' should describe a movement towards the location indicated by ''fa'a'', not along some direction which presumably ''fa'a'' does not indicate. --mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**{mo'ifa'a} could indicate that the referent is rotating to a position that is described as {fa'a}. -- mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Pierre Abbat|.pier.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**{mo'ifa'a} could indicate that the referent is rotating to a position that is described as {fa'a}. -- mi'e [[Pierre Abbat|.pier.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>POSITION 2:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>POSITION 2:</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*I think that what you've done is quite excellent as a start, though the dictionary entry would have to be grossly abbreviated, with references to the discussion/Elephant rather than the arguments themselves (the arguments do not belong in the dictionary). It might indeed be possible to come up with a way to cover the multiple approaches coherently, once they are fully elaborated. (The only improvement I could request is to find a way to more clearly link the examples to their appropriate definitional segments.) --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*I think that what you've done is quite excellent as a start, though the dictionary entry would have to be grossly abbreviated, with references to the discussion/Elephant rather than the arguments themselves (the arguments do not belong in the dictionary). It might indeed be possible to come up with a way to cover the multiple approaches coherently, once they are fully elaborated. (The only improvement I could request is to find a way to more clearly link the examples to their appropriate definitional segments.) --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See [[Elephant|Elephant]], [[Great Dictionary Problem|Great Dictionary Problem]], [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>The Lojban Dictionary|The Lojban Dictionary]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See [[Elephant|Elephant]], [[Great Dictionary Problem|Great Dictionary Problem]], [[The Lojban Dictionary|The Lojban Dictionary]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
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</table>Gleki