elidable terminator: Difference between revisions

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From [[the Book|the Book]], chapter 19, section 17: The elidable terminators are
{| class="wikitable"
! cmavo
! selmaho
! meaning


From Jboske:
|-
|| be'o
|| BE
|| sumti attached to a tanru unit


CLL explicitly states that {coi xirma}, {doi xirma} are ambiguous between {coi/doi la xirma} and {coi/doi le xirma}. Since these two are nonequivalent, and since Lojban generally is not ambiguous (it claims that it is syntactically unambiguous but not semantically unambiguous, but in practise it strives to be semantically unambiguous and its claim is meant to be that it is not free from vagueness), should we see this is an error or brokenness in CLL?
|-
|| boi
|| PA/BY
|| number or lerfu string


It's really an issue about whether CLL should be allowed to subvert the underlying principles of the language, since one can disambiguate with {coi/doi la xirma} and {coi/doi le xirma}.
|-
|| do'u
|| COI/DOI
|| vocative phrases


There is a further wrinkle, though, which is that I take {doi/coi le xirma} to mean "I hereby address/greet a certain horse". (It's a silly meaning, but not a silly construction: I might stand up before a class of students, wishing to address certain ones of them, and say {doi le tadni}.) CLL glosses {coi xirma} as "hello horse". But {coi la xirma} would be "Hello Horse", while "hello horse" would be "coi do noi ke'a xirma". So CLL seems inconsistent and hence 'broken' (assuming that consistency is necessary condition for nonbrokenness).
|-
|| fe'u
|| FIhO
|| ad-hoc modal tags


I therefore think that {coi/doi xirma} should be equivalent only to {coi/doi la xirma}, which also makes for a simpler rule: la/lai can be omitted following DOI/COI.
|-
|| ge'u
|| GOI
|| relative phrases


--[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
|-
|| kei
|| NU
|| abstraction bridi


I've never thought about this much, but I agree on the basis of "coi djan" being at least semantically equivalent to coi la djan --[[jbocre: .greg.|greg.]]
|-
|| ke'e
|| KE
|| groups of various kinds


So "doi pendo" is not "friend" ("you, person, who are my friend") but "Friend" ("you, whom I am giving the name 'Pendo'")? --[[jbocre: pne|pne]]
|-
|| ku
|| LE/LA
|| description sumti


The argument is symmetry versus usefulness. As Philip just hinted, the useful default of ''doi'' is ''doi le''. I agree that it does have to be one and not the other, and vote for the less symmetrical but more useful ''doi le''. If you want a cmene, you know where to find them. I'm not even convinced all Lojbanists realise we can have names in Lojban which are bridi rather than morphological cmene (''cmeseltai''), and they certainly aren't prototypical cmene anyway. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|-
|| ku'e
|| PEhO
|| forethought mekso


I agree about choosing the most useful, but the most useful interpretation of ''doi pendo'' is ''doi do noi pendo'', not ''doi le pendo''. In the case of ''doi le pendo'' the hearer first of all identifies the referent and then understands that the referent is being addressed. --[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
|-
|| ku'o
|| NOI
|| relative clauses


''*shrug*'' as long as you don't want the default to be ''doi la pendo'', we are not in real disagreement -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|-
|| li'u
|| LU
|| quotations
 
|-
|| lo'o
|| LI
|| number sumti
 
|-
|| lu'u
|| LAhE/NAhE+BO
|| sumti qualifiers
 
|-
|| me'u
|| ME
|| tanru units formed from sumti
 
|-
|| nu'u
|| NUhI
|| forethought termsets
 
|-
|| se'u
|| SEI/SOI
|| metalinguistic insertions
 
|-
|| te'u
|| various
|| mekso conversion constructs
 
|-
|| toi
|| TO
|| parenthetical remarks
 
|-
|| tu'u
|| TUhE
|| multiple sentences or paragraphs
 
|-
|| vau
|| (none)
|| simple bridi or bridi-tails
 
|-
|| ve'o
|| VEI
|| mekso parentheses
 
|}

Revision as of 16:48, 4 November 2013

From the Book, chapter 19, section 17: The elidable terminators are

cmavo selmaho meaning
be'o BE sumti attached to a tanru unit
boi PA/BY number or lerfu string
do'u COI/DOI vocative phrases
fe'u FIhO ad-hoc modal tags
ge'u GOI relative phrases
kei NU abstraction bridi
ke'e KE groups of various kinds
ku LE/LA description sumti
ku'e PEhO forethought mekso
ku'o NOI relative clauses
li'u LU quotations
lo'o LI number sumti
lu'u LAhE/NAhE+BO sumti qualifiers
me'u ME tanru units formed from sumti
nu'u NUhI forethought termsets
se'u SEI/SOI metalinguistic insertions
te'u various mekso conversion constructs
toi TO parenthetical remarks
tu'u TUhE multiple sentences or paragraphs
vau (none) simple bridi or bridi-tails
ve'o VEI mekso parentheses
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