dotside or Not?

[08:04] <ctino> coi .vensa.

[08:04] <selckiku> coi la ctino

[08:04] <ctino> coi .selkik.

[08:04] <vensa> .oi mi xebni la'oi dotside

[08:04] <vensa> .ije mi jinvi lodu'u za'o bilga lonu pilno zo la

[08:05] <ctino> .i mi nelci la'oi dotside

[08:06] <vensa> doi la ctino .i e'o ko stidi tu'a lo cmica'o be zoi gy This feels strange to me gy be'o .e lo cmica'o be zo'oi dissatisfaction

[08:06] <vensa> ca'e la'oi dotside cu na'e se catni

[08:07] * ctino shrugs

[08:08] <ctino> My lojban is not anywhere near good enough to continue that conversation -_-;;

[08:08] <vensa> .uu

[08:08] <vensa> xu do pu jimpe fi lo mi preti

[08:09] <ctino> .u'u na go'i

[08:09] == Moddington has changed nick to Modd|sipna

[08:09] <vensa> I asked you to propose an attitudinal for "this feels strange" and for "dissatisfaction"

[08:11] <mashers> coi

[08:11] <ctino> Ah.

[08:11] <ctino> .u'i

[08:11] <ctino> coi .macers.

[08:12] <mashers> coi .ctino.

[08:12] <ctino> So why don't you like dotside, vensa?

[08:12] <mashers> Just got a quick question about pronunciation

[08:13] <vensa> ctino: becuz it's not official

[08:13] <vensa> and becuz it makes for too much unneccesary pausing IMO

[08:13] <vensa> mashers: ask away

[08:13] <mashers> Am I correct in thinking that, e.g. tavla, should be pronounced with both vowels the same like the vowel in car, rather than with the second vowel as a schwa?

[08:14] <vensa> ctino: remind me what dotside comes to solve again? dont you still need to say {la} in front of a selbri name?

[08:14] <vensa> mashers: yes. all lojban letters should sound the same, no matter where they are in the word

[08:14] <ctino> vensa: It removes the requirement of disallowing { la, le, lo, etc.} from names.

[08:15] <vensa> the thing with selbri, however, is that you must stress the penultimate syllable

[08:15] <vensa> so {tavla} should be ponounced {TAVla} and not {tavLA}

[08:15] <vensa> ctino: oh right. just {la} and {doi} tho

[08:15] <ctino> Right. Them thingies.

[08:16] <mashers> Ok thanks. To my English tongue, it feels more natural to pronounce words ending with "a" with a schwa at the end, buy I guess that would be tavly :)

[08:16] <vensa> ctino: but u still have to say {la} in front of selbri names. because even without dotside i *might* pause before and after a selbri.

[08:16] <ctino> Dotside isn't applied to selbri names, I believe.

[08:16] <vensa> ctino: y? do you have so many names that require {doi} and {la} in them?

[08:16] <ctino> And you still have to say {la} in any case.

[08:16] <ctino> Because I like having as much flexibility in the language as possible.

[08:16] <vensa> .ie

[08:17] <kucli> coi ro do

[08:17] <ctino> I think it makes it richer

[08:17] <ctino> coi .kucli.

[08:17] <vensa> hmm... wasnt there a different approach to also allow {la} and {doi} in names?

[08:17] <ctino> I don't know...

[08:17] <vensa> coi ba'ei LAAAAAAA kucli

[08:17] <ctino> All I know is xorlo.

[08:17] <kucli> u'i

[08:17] <vensa> ctino: y do u insist then to nat say {la}?

[08:17] <kucli> vensa: do cinmo ma

[08:17] <ksion> coi la vensa .e ro drata nalselrinsa be mi

[08:18] <ctino> La isn't required after a COI

[08:18] <vensa> coi la ksion .i mi na pu djuno lodu'u do zvati .u'u

[08:18] <mashers> {ro do} = "all you" = everyone?

[08:18] <vensa> citno: it IS required for SELBRI NAMES!

[08:18] <vensa> *ctino

[08:18] <ksion> u'unaidai

[08:18] <ctino> mashers: Yes.

[08:18] <vensa> doi la kucli mi cinmo loka fengu la ctino .u'i

[08:18] <mashers> Thanks :)

[08:19] <kucli> vensa: u'icai

[08:19] <ctino> mashers: No problem.

[08:19] <kucli> vensa: just for a {la} ?

[08:19] <vensa> ksion: what was the other alternative to dotside for allowing {la} and {doi} in cmevla?

[08:19] <ctino> vensa: I still haven't gotten used to noticing if something's a selbri or not.

[08:19] <vensa> ctino: it's VERY simple. if it ends with a vowel - its a selbri

[08:20] <vensa> thats it

[08:20] <ksion> vensa: No idea.

[08:20] <ctino> vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve...

[08:21] <vensa> kucli: I am a man of principles. yes.

[08:21] <vensa> ctino: tough luck. but thats one of the things I'm willing to give up on for the gratification of such a beautiful, unambiguos language

[08:21] * ctino sighs

[08:21] <vensa> and besides: ending with an {s} doesnt sound too much diff

[08:22] <ctino> Yeah, I suppose.

[08:22] <kucli> ctino: i don't think it can be fixed...it is an important rule that give unambiguity

[08:22] <ctino> :\

[08:22] <ctino> Oh well. I can overlook it.

[08:22] <vensa> ctino: in many languages you are required to pronounce your name differently because of restriction in that languages dialect

[08:22] <mashers> co'o ro do

[08:22] <ctino> But that's why I like dotside. Because it allows for just that little bit more flexibility.

[08:23] <ctino> co'o .macers.

[08:23] <vensa> ctino: I'm still investigating the dotside issue. I'm sure there is another way

[08:23] <ctino> But if it were better why wouldn't it be the one we're trying to get instantiated?

[08:24] <ctino> Just because there's another way doesn't necessarily mean it's better.

[08:24] <vensa> true

[08:24] * ctino shrugs

[08:24] <vensa> first let me recall the way

[08:24] <vensa> then Ill remember why I was opposed to dotside

[08:24] <vensa> and an advocate of the other way

[08:24] <ctino> Then we can debate its merits.

[08:24] <ctino> Mhmm

[08:25] <kucli> ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?

[08:25] <kucli> ctino: I think {la'oi} is the best way...

[08:26] <vensa> kucli: he said nothing to that end. you got it wrong

[08:26] <kucli> [08:15] <ctino> vensa: That's another thing I wish could be fixed. I HATE that you can't end your name in a vowel without using {la'oi}. It's a petpeeve..

[08:27] <kucli> did i missunderstood?

[08:27] <vensa> [08:25] <kucli> ctino: i don't get the matter...Why do you want to end a non-lojban name by a consonant?

[08:27] <vensa> that aint the same thing. its the opposite

[08:28] <kucli> Actually, yes -_-

[08:28] <kucli> u'u

[08:28] <vensa> besides: he already accepted the "ending of vowel names with a consonant". it's the {la}\{doi} restriction we're trying to fix now

[08:28] <kucli> what restriction is it?

[08:28] <ctino> One of the things that attracted me to lojban was that supposedly it's made to allow for the very direct transfer of intention, through completely unambiguous grammar. A big part of a person is their name. And when you're discussing someone I like to be able to actually say their name. Not some close approximation. If the name is in japanese I say it /in japanese/. If it's in hebrew I do the same. So that's the long winded version that it

[08:28] <ctino> appears you don't need anymore because you moved on while I was typing :)

[08:29] <ksion> vensa: Doesn't partial dotside after COI and DOI fix the issue?

[08:29] <vensa> http://dag.github.com/cll/4/8/

[08:29] <vensa> "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."

[08:30] <vensa> ctino: so you can always say {la'oi} and after that you can even utter a name that contains bushmanian click sounds

[08:30] <ctino> Yeah, that's why I stopped complaining. Is that that's good enough for me. I was just trying to explain my whole POV.

[08:31] <vensa> ksion: I dont know what "partial" dotside is. if you mean {coi la .laplas}, then no

[08:31] <vensa> ctino: ok. so no agument :)

[08:31] <ctino> Yup!

[08:31] <vensa> ctino: did you read the CLL section I linked?

[08:31] <ctino> No. I shall.

[08:31] <vensa> ctino: you CAN use {la} or {doi} if you simply preced it with a consonant

[08:31] <ctino> Oh, yes, I knew that.

[08:32] <vensa> so it's exactly the same as requiring a consonant at the end of a vowel-ending name.

[08:32] <vensa> so I dont see the big deal

[08:32] <ctino> The problem is, yet again, it dilutes the name.

[08:32] <vensa> and no reason to swtich to dotside

[08:33] <vensa> is {slaplas} THAT diff from "laplas"?

[08:33] <ctino> If my name is Lair, and I go to lojban and say "Cool, my name doesn't even need to change!" And then it has to become {slair} or something then it's a bit of an issue. In my mind.

[08:33] <ctino> To me, yeah, it's a huge difference.

[08:33] <ctino> But we all know I'm insane :)

[08:33] <vensa> de'a jundi

[08:35] <nouser> coi ro

[08:35] <kucli> vensa: what does {de'a jundi} means?

[08:35] <vensa> ctino: but dont you think it's pretty much the same thing as having to add a consonant to a name that ends in a vowel?

[08:35] <vensa> it's even LESS frequent

[08:35] <kucli> coi la nouser

[08:35] <vensa> so y devise a whole method of dotside just for that silly thing?

[08:36] <vensa> kucli: it means my attention is being paused, i.e. "brb"

[08:36] <selckiku> no one switched to my invention:

[08:36] <ctino> I think the beginning is more important than the end. Because it's the first thing you hear, so more of your thoughts are attached to it.

[08:36] <lindar> ?

[08:36] <selckiku> di'a snuju'i

[08:36] <lindar> What're we talking about?

[08:36] <selckiku> i think it's a pretty word, "snuju'i"

[08:36] <vensa> ctino: baloni.

[08:36] <ctino> lindar: dotside.

[08:36] <selckiku> yeah, what are we talking about? i didn't really pay attention

[08:36] <vensa> ctino: and the {la} can also be somewhere in the middle of the name

[08:36] <kucli> coi la lindar

[08:36] <lindar> ...huh.

[08:37] <selckiku> i love dotside

[08:37] <ctino> Yeah... I dunno. I think it messes the name up more than it needs to be mangled.

[08:37] <ctino> selckiku: vensa doesn't :)

[08:37] <vensa> that right. I dont! what you gonna do about it :P

[08:37] <kucli> vensa: How can you say {keeping back my attention, i.e : i'm back}

[08:37] <selckiku> you may have noticed i don't just pause, i also say the name with a different tone and rhythm, i make a little space for it

[08:37] <lindar> ?

[08:38] <vensa> kucli {di'a jundi}

[08:38] <ctino> xD

[08:38] <lindar> For those arguing with dotside: You're retarded. Shut up.

[08:38] <lindar> Seriously.

[08:38] <vensa> selckiku: that should be *allowed*, not *required*

[08:38] <ctino> lindar: You're retarded. But you already knew that :)

[08:38] <lindar> No, it -should- be required.

[08:38] <selckiku> good luck never saying a name with "la" or "doi" in it! :P

[08:38] <selckiku> we tried for years, and failed

[08:39] <selckiku> we'd always be like, ooooops there's a "doi" in that name

[08:39] <vensa> selkik: whats the problem with adding a consonant before the {la} or the {doi}?

[08:39] <selckiku> or whatever was disallowed, i forget

[08:39] <selckiku> "lai" isn't allowed i think-- as if anyone ever said "lai"!!

[08:39] <vensa> u'i

[08:39] <selckiku> vensa, huh? in the name you mean? that's not the nondotside rule, and i doubt you could make it parse unambiguously

[08:40] <selckiku> mi pinxe lo bisli tcati

[08:40] <@Broca> Did lindar use “arguing with” to mean “arguing against”?

[08:40] <lindar> http://lojban.org/tiki/the+case+against+la <--- you should probably read this as it clearly explains why it's not optional.

[08:40] <ctino> lindar: BTW, I really like your lojban game idea.

[08:40] <lindar> ctino: Awesome. Contribute ideas. =D

[08:40] <ctino> Broca: I think so... That's what tripped me up.

[08:41] <selckiku> i think it's a good reward to give people titles

[08:41] <vensa> selkik: you werent paying attention to the CLL link I provided

[08:41] * lindar is like the new xorxes without the obnoxiousness and with less proficiency.

[08:41] <selckiku> gives us something fun to talk about

[08:41] <ctino> lindar: I will, if I think of any. Also props for reading Cracked.

[08:41] <vensa> [08:29] <vensa> http://dag.github.com/cll/4/8/

[08:41] <vensa> 08:29] <vensa> "Names are not permitted to have the sequences “la”, “lai”, or “doi” embedded in them, unless ..."

[08:41] <lindar> Well, a different KIND of obnoxiousness, anyway.

[08:42] <selckiku> it's not just that we dislike that rule, vensa, it's that we *failed* at it

[08:42] <vensa> selkik: thats your deficiency

[08:42] <selckiku> lots of people who *wanted* to follow that rule tried, and were never able to! :)

[08:42] <selckiku> it was before i was very active, so i didn't do much of the failing

[08:42] <vensa> IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"

[08:42] <vensa> lindar, ctino: what is this game?

[08:44] <vensa> btw ctino: I think you DO need {la} after COI. it's only after DOI that it is permitted to be omitted

[08:44] <lindar> There isn't any middle ground, I'm afraid. Is the phoneme-stream .mivIskalamArk. a big long cmene (of the first type, preceded by a pause), or is it mi viska la mark., ending on a cmene of the other type? It's one or the other. Besides, if people could remember to distinguish the two kinds of cmene, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place.

[08:44] <ctino> lindar: Really...?

[08:44] <selckiku> there's a printed nondotside error *in that very section*: Russian “Svetlana” sfietlanys.

[08:44] <lindar> vensa: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/t/e0c88f79c4c7bf6f

[08:44] <lindar> vensa: No, {doi} is part of COI.

[08:44] <vensa> lindar: I still dont understand what you are arguing for and against

[08:44] <vensa> lindar: duh, no!

[08:44] <vensa> doi is DOI

[08:45] <vensa> coi is COI

[08:45] <lindar> ...

[08:45] <lindar> That's weird.

[08:45] <ctino> It's true.

[08:45] <lindar> However, neither require LA.

[08:45] <ctino> That's what I thought...

[08:45] <vensa> selkik: y is that an error?

[08:46] <ctino> I swear, these rules have to be SOMEWHERE written down...

[08:46] <vensa> lindar: citation required

[08:46] <selckiku> vensa, predotside names can't have "la" in them, like sfietLAnys does

[08:46] <lindar> vensa: My boot up your arse.

[08:46] <vensa> ctino: in this case they are. just have to find them :_)

[08:46] * ctino roars

[08:46] <vensa> selkik: they CAN!!!!! if they have a consonant b4 the LA

[08:47] <vensa> becuz it cant break up

[08:47] <vensa> becus theres no {.} after the {f}

[08:47] <vensa> are you blind?

[08:47] <vensa> .u'u

[08:47] * lindar shrugs.

[08:48] <lindar> I don't know where it's written down, but that's how it's used.

[08:48] <selckiku> oh, is that the rule?? i dunno what the rule is b/c we never managed to follow the rule

[08:48] <ctino> http://dag.github.com/cll/6/11/

[08:48] <lindar> So, whether or not it's written down somewhere, that's how it's used.

[08:48] <selckiku> it's silly to relitigate dotside

[08:49] <vensa> selkik: it shouldnt be THAT hard.

[08:49] <ctino> Is for elidability with COI and DOI.

[08:49] <selckiku> there's so many unresolved things left to argue about

[08:49] <lindar> There we go.

[08:49] <lindar> >.>

[08:49] <kucli> lindar: I'm agree with vensa, like everybody, you need to provide proof

[08:49] <vensa> so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?

[08:49] <lindar> Seriously, though. Why are we discussing shit which is anciently old when we have bigger problems to worry about?

[08:50] <lindar> >_>

[08:50] <selckiku> it's funny how xorxes has adopted this policy of answering every question with two answers, the old official answer and the new xorxesese answer :D

[08:50] <kucli> de'a jundi

[08:50] <lindar> selkik: I actually find that annoying.

[08:50] <selckiku> lindar, why's that?

[08:50] <lindar> "Hey, how does X work?" "Well, if we accepted THIS proposal, it would work like *this*."

[08:50] <ctino> xD

[08:50] <vensa> until dotside becomes either official or officially banned, this discussion will always rerise when newcomers arrive

[08:50] <ctino> He's campaigning.

[08:50] <lindar> Yes, we get it xorxes, everything in Lojban is wrong.

[08:51] <tomoj> vensa: "the case against 'la'"?

[08:51] <selckiku> we're discussing these old things again because vensa is wrestling with learning lojban. that's what it's like when anyone learns lojban, as far as i can tell. you have to learn these controversies and internalize them. you form your opinions about things.

[08:51] <tomoj> you think that is against dotside?

[08:51] <lindar> "The case against 'la'." is the dotside proposal.

[08:51] <lindar> >_>

[08:51] <selckiku> lindar, he's not just complaining, he's respecting the way it is now enough to describe it, while also advocating how we can move forward. i think it's a reasonable compromise.

[08:52] <jcowan> Dotside should become official. <-- ukase from former lojban tsar

[08:52] <vensa> ctino: oh right. the diff between COI and DOI is that DOI doesnt require a pause B4 the bare cmevla

[08:52] <ctino> :)

[08:52] <vensa> tomoj: what does that mean?

[08:52] <vensa> selkik: ie

[08:52] <tomoj> <vensa> so did anybody get lindar's pov. from his link it seems he is *against* dotside. right?

[08:52] <tomoj>

[08:52] <tomoj> responding to that

[08:53] <vensa> tomoj: ki'e

[08:53] <vensa> got it now

[08:53] <tomoj> so with dotside does DOI merge with COI?

[08:53] <vensa> so, tell lindar, that if he wants us to stop talking about dotside-or-not he should push to make it official

[08:53] <tomoj> then you'd get {doi nai} too though

[08:53] <selckiku> dotside is only annoying to do if you think of it as a mechanical rule.. i like to think of it as making sense

[08:53] <vensa> nobody worries about xorlo anymore, since it's official

[08:54] <ctino> "I'm not talking to you." {doi nai} hehe.

[08:54] == mode/#lojban +o Broca by ChanServ

[08:54] == mode/#lojban +o Broca by ChanServ

[08:54] <tomoj> vensa: did you read "The Case Against LA"?

[08:54] <vensa> tomoj: no, I just read the headings

[08:54] <tomoj> if you weren't convinced after that I'd be surprised

[08:55] <vensa> theres toto much going on here right now for me to read it

[08:55] <vensa> tomoj: I'm surprised that if it's so convincing,.... why isnt it official?!

[08:55] <ctino> Because the lojban community is uber slow?

[08:55] <selckiku> i think dotside can be a lot more beautiful than the old way.. it makes a little space for the name

[08:55] <selckiku> visually i like the way it makes the name pop out

[08:55] <vensa> selkik: I like to talk fast. sue me

[08:56] <selckiku> it's like putting *stars* around something or "quotes", you put the .dots. and the name just looks .nameish.

[08:56] <vensa> selkik: you should be allowed to do that. not required IMO

[08:56] <selckiku> you only need to say a name once at most

[08:56] <vensa> in speech it sucks IMO

[08:56] <ctino> vensa: I like talking fast as well. But if you normally talk super fast then just slow down to normal speed when you say a name and it's all okay, no?

[08:56] <vensa> not if I'm calling for someone who fails to hear me the first time

[08:56] <selckiku> you can assign people pro-sumti

[08:57] <selckiku> you can say pauses quickly.. they can be just a glottal stop

[08:57] <vensa> doi .moder. doi .moder. doi .moder.

[08:57] <selckiku> i've never really practiced saying dotside names quickly but i'm sure you could say them very quickly indeed if you practiced it

[08:57] <ksion> Glottal stop is ugly.

[08:57] <ctino> Calling their name quickly isn't going to make them notice you more... It's actually less likely they'll recognize their name.

[08:58] <selckiku> anyway where is everyone in such a hurry to get to these days

[08:58] <tomoj> vensa: the point is, you will fuck up

[08:58] <tomoj> dotside is much easier to get right

[08:58] <selckiku> they just want to get their lojban done in as few superfast syllables as possible and move on to other things

[08:59] <vensa> hehe

[08:59] <selckiku> i like a nice relaxing time saying something in lojban! why hurry to something else!

[08:59] <vensa> selkik: if you want it to be a practical language, you also need brevity

[08:59] <selckiku> lack of brevity is so far from lojban's main practical problem

[08:59] <vensa> tomoj: I dont think it would be that hard to go by without dotside

[08:59] <selckiku> lack of vocabulary is more like it

[09:00] <tomoj> you're wrong

[09:00] <selckiku> rich vocabulary adds tremendously to brevity, because you can use appropriate words

[09:00] <tomoj> it's demonstrably hard to go by

[09:00] <vensa> [08:42] <vensa> IMO if someone knows he has a *problematic* name, he will introduce himslef appropriately (with the fixed name) and everybody will "catch on"

[09:00] <ctino> This reminds me that I want there to be a lojban band.

[09:00] <selckiku> it's not just people's names, we're always inventing names on the fly, names of cities, names of historical figures, etc

[09:01] <vensa> selkik: hmmm

[09:02] <ksion> selckiku: Then just learn to form them. It's not rocket science.

[09:02] <tomoj> an example from the essay is "la stivn. laitl."

[09:02] <tomoj> I certainly wouldn't have noticed the error

[09:03] <ctino> I didn't notice it until you pointed it our -_-;;

[09:03] <ctino> *out

[09:03] <tomoj> I think you should be required to read "The Case Against LA" before arguing about dotside :)

[09:03] <vensa> tomoj: I think dotside should be made official if it's such a good thing

[09:04] <selckiku> dotside is perfectly official

[09:04] <tomoj> me too

[09:04] <vensa> but I intend to read it as soon as this argument dies down

[09:04] <vensa> selkik: citation neede

[09:04] <selckiku> it's just that there's nobody in charge of lojban these days except us chickens

[09:04] <ctino> selckiku: ??

[09:04] <vensa> hehe

[09:04] <selckiku> the BPFK apparently has abdicated their authority because they're busy writing a book or something