Difference between revisions of "denpa bu"

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Capital letters, instead of indicating nonstandard stress, should represent their lerfu. "A" = "abu", "B" = "by.", etc. --xod
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What is '''.'''?
  
* I like this idea. Nonstandard stress could always fall back on accented vowels. Acronyms in Lojban are currently very difficult to read, and in fact some people already use capital letters as lerfu to counter this. (In a recent thread I saw {JJM} used to refer to {jorne jecta co merko}.) Additionally, this gives a pronunciation to [[jbocre: selma'o|selma'o]] names. NIhO = {ny.ibu.y'y.obu}. And of course it opens up fascinating new avenues for [[jbocre: abuse of the orthography|abuse of the orthography]]. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
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A pause in Lojban. Otherwise a period, or a little funny dot. [[When are pauses mandatory|When are pauses mandatory]]
** I hope we come up with a better solution to the selma'o naming controversy than that! Whatever the name of NIhO in Lojban, I hope it involves the string ''ni'o'' and not ''NIhO''. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
 
  
* Inevitable vote against this. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]. :-) (Oh, and ''that'''s what JJM meant. This phobia of using plain ''merko'', I still cannot fathom...)
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As [[The Book|The Book]] says in Chapter 3, when a pause is required, the minimal pause is a glottal stop. You are, of course, allowed to pause longer if you wish.
** The phobia might come from the issue of the Americas (North, Central, South) calling themselves that. Hence why I suggested ''steito''. Or it might come from the strange desire some people have to use acronyms with no referents and watch people try to guess the meaning. -- [[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
 
  
** One of these days, I'll make a Lojban aphorism of "the purpose of Lojban is to be clear, not cute." (''jmibirti jenai zdile tutci se krinu la lojban.'') Meanwhile, people, merko = U.S. merko != America. bemro joi ketco = America. The etymology of gismu is utterly irrelevant. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
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Many other languages, including English, use glottal stops. If you are an English speaker, say the word "if" in isolation (or any other word that starts with a vowel). The tiny catch in your throat before the vowel is a glottal stop.
** I wrote JJM because the guy I was quoting wrote USA. If he had said America I'd have said merko. -[[jbocre: cmeclax|cmeclax]]
 
  
* I don't totally like this, but on the other hand it isn't all that horrible. After all, the use as nonstandard stress and the use as lerfu don't conflict. Nonstandard stress would almost always have mixed case in a word (stressing a whole cmavo would only be necessary in poetry, where I would not think one would use the lerfu convention, for precision's sake), and lerfu- capitals would be all-caps. --mi'e mark.
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* I don't see why this would be a problem if you're not looking for it to be parsed. Also, why just capital letters? A string of lowercase consonants is probably an acronym. -- [[jbocre: Adam|Adam]]
 
  
** The island off Dalmatia is called ''la krk''; a string of lowercase consonants is not always an acronym. Mind you, if it's not a cmene, it might be safe to interpret it as an acronym; but I think this is more unsettling than the orthographic tricks I've been allowing myself (optional punctuation, numerals for numbers.) -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
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Next question: why is '''.'''? ''Why that symbol? It is often written as ', but ' was taken.''
* I've always found capitals as stress to be ugly. On the Wiki, bold works. In e-mail, this could be done with a ^ or other character which has no relevance to Lojban otherwise, preceding the accented vowel. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
 
  
** Try using ''h'' where an acute accent mark is impossible. It looks better than ^. -- [[jbocre: Adam|Adam]]
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*** But ''h'' is already used as a capital ''y'y''! We should probably try not to break two conventions in doing this, even if one is really obscure. I suppose using ''q'' or ''w'' would return to ugliness. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
 
  
** I prefer a ` mark or a ^ mark and never an "h", to indicate nonstandard stress: {nu,`iork} or {nu,^iork}, but not {nu,IORK} or {nu,hiork}. --xod
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And another: doesn't a little '''.''' magically/[[nature atur|nature atur]]ally appear, for instance, when you cut into or out of a recording while a vowel is being played?
** I feel we should have an acute accent for stress, grave for explicit unrounding and umlaut for explicit rounding. The grave and umlaut then are optional but help in writing to show the difference between, say, T�rkiye and *Tirkiye - one has an optionally-umlauted i in the lojbanization, while one has an optional grave accent - but both are correct if spelled ''tirki,ie'', insofar as I can call any type 4 [[jbocre: poo'ivla|poo'ivla]] "correct." - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]
 
  
* No, capital letters, at least for A-F, should be reserved for abbreviating hexadecimal digits. --[[jbocre: tinkit|tinkit]]
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Yes.
** I suggested arbitrary symbols for that, in the very infrequent case when you need to talk about a lot of hex digits. This would be a terrible waste of the capital letters. At worst, say things like 83vei2gai. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
 
  
** A-F have their own pronunciations in words. At least A and E, as stressed vowels. If we make them into digits, that could be confusing. I guess I never much liked the A-F convention for hex digits in the first place, Lojban aside. Ideally, they should have their own symbols. Maybe the shifted versions of 0-5 (as a mnemonic for the decimalized) on a standard keyboard? (there goes [[jbocre: cultural neutrality|cultural neutrality]]!) That gives: )!@#$% Woo.
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--So how does one deal with that in lojban?
** ga'i.ienai le namcu cmavo pe loi mupli be li 16 na morji srana lei lerfu .i le glico tcaci na cinri la lojban. .i mi fapro le re se stidi .i ku'i le pamoi se stidu cu lojbo jinzi se mukti .i le namcu se stidi cu lacri lo mulno bartu be la lojban. .i le jinzi cu jinga -- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
 
  
*It turns out this was also allowed in Loglan: ''Loglan 1'' (1989), p. 180:
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Um, no problem.  It just works. Remember, '''.''' doesn't mean "glottal stop," it means "pause," and glottal stop is an allophone of pause.  When you cut into or out of a recording, there is '''silence''' from the recording before the incut or after the outcut--that's what cutting in/out means.  Therefore, there is quite '''correctly''' a pause/glottal-stop/Lojban-dot in that place, and if we were transcribing the sounds, a period would be completely appropriate to write there. Note also, that the period is never mandatory to write (though the pause may be mandatory to say), so long as you have at least spaces in the right places.
 
 
;:Remember that each of the 100 three- and sx-letter words so generated may be represented in text in two ways: first, as a phonemically spelled word -- '''Tai''', for example, which translates the phrase 'capital tee' in English -- and second, by its single-letter abbreviation, in this case the letteral '''T'''. Both representations are pronounced as the word itself is spelled, in the case of '''T''' and '''Tai''' as [[jbocre: tigh|tigh]]. Thus the two differently written sentences: (1) '''Tai ditca''' "Tee is a teacher" (unusual in English text, but understandable) / taiDITca/ (2) '''T ditca''' "T is a teacher" /taiDITca/ are read aloud as the same utterance. This is exactly what we do when reading numerals aloud in English, of course. Thus 'He ate 3 doughnuts' and 'He ate three doughnuts' evoke exactly the same sounds.
 
 
 
* Acronyms need a consonant on the end like all good little cmene, don't they? This would probably mean "la JJMs". What also hasn't been mentioned is that this system wouldn't work if we wanted to sound out acronyms where applicable, like when pronouncing PETA as "peeduh", not "pee ee tee ay". Whether or not you use this convention in lojban doesn't change the fact that it is inevitable. If lojban had an acronym like "la py.ebuty.abus", it could and would be shortened to "la petas". --- mi'e .okus.
 

Latest revision as of 15:40, 23 March 2014

What is .?

A pause in Lojban. Otherwise a period, or a little funny dot. When are pauses mandatory

As The Book says in Chapter 3, when a pause is required, the minimal pause is a glottal stop. You are, of course, allowed to pause longer if you wish.

Many other languages, including English, use glottal stops. If you are an English speaker, say the word "if" in isolation (or any other word that starts with a vowel). The tiny catch in your throat before the vowel is a glottal stop.


Next question: why is .? Why that symbol? It is often written as ', but ' was taken.


And another: doesn't a little . magically/nature aturally appear, for instance, when you cut into or out of a recording while a vowel is being played?

Yes.

--So how does one deal with that in lojban?

Um, no problem. It just works. Remember, . doesn't mean "glottal stop," it means "pause," and glottal stop is an allophone of pause. When you cut into or out of a recording, there is silence from the recording before the incut or after the outcut--that's what cutting in/out means. Therefore, there is quite correctly a pause/glottal-stop/Lojban-dot in that place, and if we were transcribing the sounds, a period would be completely appropriate to write there. Note also, that the period is never mandatory to write (though the pause may be mandatory to say), so long as you have at least spaces in the right places.