What is Lojban?: Difference between revisions

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{CODE(wrap="1]][[jbocre: 13:17]] <vensa> {le'ai} alone means "I made an error, you should know what it is"
''Lojban'' is a constructed language. It was originally called


[[jbocre: 13:17]] <vensa> {le'aidai} means "I believe *you* made an error"
''Loglan'' by project founder ''Dr. James Cooke Brown'',


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <donri> valsi: le'ai (class)
who started the language development in ''1955''. Loglan/Lojban


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <valsi> le'ai (class) = LEhAI
has been built over four decades by dozens of workers and hundreds


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <donri> No it doesn't.
of supporters, led since ''1987'' by [[jbocre: The Logical Language Group|The Logical Language Group]].


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <donri> It means {le'ai ge'edai}
The following are the main features of Lojban:


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <vensa> http://vlasisku.lojban.org/le'ai
* Lojban is designed to be used by people in '''communication''' with each other, and possibly in the future with computers.
* Lojban is designed to be '''culturally neutral'''.


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <donri> I made an error and I sense you emote something.
* Lojban grammar is based on the '''principles of logic'''.
* Lojban has an '''unambiguous grammar'''.


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <donri> valsi: le'ai (notes)
* Lojban has '''phonetic spelling''', and unambiguous resolution of sounds into words.
* Lojban is '''simple''' compared to natural languages; it is easy to learn.


[[jbocre: 13:18]] <valsi> le'ai (notes) = The {lo'ai} ... {sa'ai} ... {le'ai} replacement construct asks the listener to replace the text after {lo'ai} with the text after {sa'ai}.; The order {sa'ai} ... {lo'ai} ... {le'ai} is also allowed, and either or both parts can be omitted and thus left up to context.  When both parts are omitted, the word {le'ai} on its own indicates that a mistake was made while leaving all the details up to context.; It is also possible to attach SAI to a le'a
* Lojban's '''1300 root words''' can be easily combined to form a vocabulary of '''millions of words'''.
* Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are '''without exception'''.


[[jbocre: 13:19]] <vensa> dbrock seemed to think otherwise when he coined it
* Lojban attempts to '''remove restrictions''' on creative and clear thought and communication.
* Lojban has a '''variety of uses''', ranging from the creative to the scientific, from the theoretical to the practical.


[[jbocre: 13:19]] <vensa> maybe his def shouldnt be gramatical
For more information on what Lojban is, and why people are learning


[[jbocre: 13:19]] <donri> Yea but dbrock is confused about the grammar. :)
it, see the [[jbocre: Lojban Introductory Brochure|Lojban Introductory Brochure]].


[[jbocre: 13:20]] <donri> valsi: dai (class)
You might also want to consider buying the book [[jbocre: What Is Lojban?, The Book hat Is Lojban?]].
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <valsi> dai (class) = UI5
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <vensa> but thats a whole discussion topic about wether CAI can be attached to non-ui and what does that mean
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <ksion> It is also possible to attach SAI to a le'ai -- This is pretty clear.
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <donri> Hm, maybe I'm confused about the grammar.
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <donri> I thought dai was a CAI and CAI only attach to UI otherwise an implicit ge'e
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <ksion> Oh, {dai} is UI5.
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <dbrock-> I use {le’ai dai}
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <ksion> mabla selma'o
 
[[jbocre: 13:20]] <vensa> ksion: it's very clear. except there is no SAI. it's CAI
 
[[jbocre: 13:21]] <donri> But UI attachment is ambiguous, so it could ambigously be used that way maybe.
 
[[jbocre: 13:21]] <donri> Ambigous because UI normally do not attach to UI but UI4 does. Crazy shit.
 
[[jbocre: 13:21]] <vensa> yes. unless it was explicitly defined in the def of {lo'ai}, which it has
 
[[jbocre: 13:21]] <vensa> so no ambiguity :)
 
[[jbocre: 13:22]] <kucli> each time i write something, everybody is waking up and write something
 
[[jbocre: 13:22]] <kucli> u'i
 
[[jbocre: 13:22]] <donri> vensa: It's not clear if notes are authoritative.
 
[[jbocre: 13:23]] <kucli> each time i write something, everybody here wakes up and write something *
 
[[jbocre: 13:23]] <vensa> UI attaching to UI is specifically left ambiguos in CLL
 
[[jbocre: 13:23]] <donri> Also, I don't like the idea that definitions can contradict grammar.
 
[[jbocre: 13:23]] <vensa> donri: I agree
 
[[jbocre: 13:23]] <donri> Some defined cmavo clusters might already, and it's not clear if that's authoritative or suggestive.
 
[[jbocre: 13:23]] <vensa> but, having a UI (dai) attach to {le'ai}  doesnt seem to defy the grammar in this case
 
[[jbocre: 13:24]] <vensa> I think the notes are part of the def
 
[[jbocre: 13:24]] <donri> UI4 should probably move to CAI (maybe dai too)
 
[[jbocre: 13:24]] <vensa> maybe
 
[[jbocre: 13:24]] <vensa> but take UI5 with you :)
 
[[jbocre: 13:25]] <donri> Maybe all of UI5 should be CAI.
 
[[jbocre: 13:25]] <donri> "Modifiers" by definition.
 
[[jbocre: 13:27]] <donri> vensa: It doesn't defy the grammar because the grammar is unclear.
 
[[jbocre: 13:27]] <vensa> true. like i said. there is some debate on the subject of CAI and UI
 
[[jbocre: 13:28]] <donri> UI should not attach to UI and CAI should only attach to UI (or implicit ge'e) and UI modifiers (UI4 and UI5) should as modifiers attach to UI like CAI.
 
[[jbocre: 13:28]] <vensa> says you :)
 
[[jbocre: 13:28]] <vensa> maybe I agree
 
[[jbocre: 13:28]] <donri> {iu ui} is two emotions, not {ui} modifying {iu}
 
[[jbocre: 13:28]] <vensa> I forget the "for" and "against" statement
 
[[jbocre: 13:29]] <donri> {iu ro'u} though suddenly is {ro'u} modifying {iu}
 
[[jbocre: 13:29]] <donri> {ie [[jbocre: nai|nai]]}?
 
[[jbocre: 13:29]] <vensa> donri: imo {iu ui} is also {ui} modifying {iu}
 
[[jbocre: 13:29]] <donri> No it isn't.
 
[[jbocre: 13:29]] <vensa> the CLL is unclear on this point
 
[[jbocre: 13:30]] <vensa> and I support that it is. becuz otherwise you have less options to construct interesting UIs
 
[[jbocre: 13:30]] <donri> No you don't.
 
[[jbocre: 13:30]] <vensa> in your description: {iu ui} is the same as {ui iu} - shame
 
[[jbocre: 13:30]] <donri> It's two separate but concurrent emotions. Effectively they might affect each other but not grammatically.
 
[[jbocre: 13:31]] <donri> If they do modify you can't say it without modifying.
 
[[jbocre: 13:31]] <donri> And then the order becomes relevant too.
 
[[jbocre: 13:31]] <vensa> you can IMO: {iu fu'e ui}
 
[[jbocre: 13:31]] <vensa> or. {iu .i ui}
 
[[jbocre: 13:31]] <donri> That's the same thing
 
[[jbocre: 13:31]] <donri> And .i changes everything
 
[[jbocre: 13:31]] <donri> Can't put that mid sentence.
 
[[jbocre: 13:32]] <vensa> well, I'm sure we could define a way
 
[[jbocre: 13:32]] <vensa> maybe even introduce a new cmavo for that
 
[[jbocre: 13:32]] <vensa> the whole point is that "as of CLL" it is purposely unclear
 
[[jbocre: 13:32]] <donri> Or let UI not explicitly modify each other and just accept that they tend to in reality.
 
[[jbocre: 13:32]] <vensa> so if we want to go one way or the toher, of course we need to revise the def
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <vensa> maybe
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <donri> Maybe could allow {bo} to bind UI or something
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <vensa> I might go either way
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <donri> iu bo ui
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <vensa> it's open to discussion
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <vensa> but right now:
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <vensa> {de'a jundi}
 
[[jbocre: 13:33]] <donri> The main point is that the current situation is ambiguous.{CODE}

Revision as of 17:20, 4 November 2013

Lojban is a constructed language. It was originally called

Loglan by project founder Dr. James Cooke Brown,

who started the language development in 1955. Loglan/Lojban

has been built over four decades by dozens of workers and hundreds

of supporters, led since 1987 by The Logical Language Group.

The following are the main features of Lojban:

  • Lojban is designed to be used by people in communication with each other, and possibly in the future with computers.
  • Lojban is designed to be culturally neutral.
  • Lojban grammar is based on the principles of logic.
  • Lojban has an unambiguous grammar.
  • Lojban has phonetic spelling, and unambiguous resolution of sounds into words.
  • Lojban is simple compared to natural languages; it is easy to learn.
  • Lojban's 1300 root words can be easily combined to form a vocabulary of millions of words.
  • Lojban is regular; the rules of the language are without exception.
  • Lojban attempts to remove restrictions on creative and clear thought and communication.
  • Lojban has a variety of uses, ranging from the creative to the scientific, from the theoretical to the practical.

For more information on what Lojban is, and why people are learning

it, see the Lojban Introductory Brochure.

You might also want to consider buying the book jbocre: What Is Lojban?, The Book hat Is Lojban?.