Talk:BPFK Section: Hesitation
OK, so what do we do about ".y."?
I'm of the opinion (caused by xorxes' arguments) that it should be as extragramattical (sp?) as it can possibly be. It is ridiculous to assert that someone who says "zo .y. pavyseljirna" is actually saying "zo .y. cu pavyseljirna".
I think that ".y." should be treated a pure whitespace everywhere except before a "bu". And, frankly, I'd rather get rid of that, too, so that if you want to talk about ".y." you have to say "zoi zoi .y. zoi". For the letter we could say "depsna bu" or something. It'd be nice to drop ".y'y." as well at that point, and say that "y" can only appear inside words; the letter could be "jbini bu" or something.
Huh. It appears that Lojban has no gismu for "vowels". Anyways.
I'd like to know how much support there is for either of these ideas. Repeating:
1. .y. is ignored as whitespace everywhere except before a "bu".
2. .y. is ignored absolutely everywhere; if we're going to do that we might as well drop the one other word in the language (.y'y.) that begins or ends with .y. as well for morphological simplicity.
Once I know if either of these might pass a vote, I'll get seriously to work on the magic words.
-Robin
> 2. .y. is ignored absolutely everywhere; if we're going to do that we might > as well drop the one other word in the language (.y'y.) that begins or ends > with .y. as well for morphological simplicity.
There are at least 17 other words that end with 'y', but {y} and {y'y} are the only ones that begin with it. I don't remember the status of things like {by'y} or {bu'y}, hopefully they are outlawed absolutely and forever.
I'd vote for this option.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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On Thu, Nov 04, 2004 at 03:48:08PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > 2. .y. is ignored absolutely everywhere; if we're going to do > > that we might as well drop the one other word in the language > > (.y'y.) that begins or ends with .y. as well for morphological > > simplicity. > > There are at least 17 other words > that end with 'y',
Like *what*? Oh, like by, cy, dy, etc. Whoops.
> but {y} and {y'y} are the only ones that begin with it. I don't > remember the status of things like {by'y} or {bu'y}, hopefully > they are outlawed absolutely and forever.
So far as I know.
> I'd vote for this option.
Well, yeah, I kinda figured that. 
-Robin
-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:26:47 -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > > 2. .y. is ignored absolutely everywhere; if we're going to do that > we might as well drop the one other word in the language (.y'y.) > that begins or ends with .y. as well for morphological simplicity.
Not sure whether my vote counts, but I'd find this acceptable.
> It'd be nice to drop ".y'y." as well at that point, and say that "y" > can only appear inside words
Or, I presume, at the end of a word (as opposed to the beginning).
mu'o mi'e .filip. --
Philip Newton
On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote:
> 1. .y. is ignored as whitespace everywhere except before a "bu".
Absolutely support.
> 2. .y. is ignored absolutely everywhere; if we're going to do that we might > as well drop the one other word in the language (.y'y.) that begins or ends > with .y. as well for morphological simplicity.
I almost entirely support this. My only misgiving is that it does invalidate usage (specifically, any usage of .y.bu anywhere would now mean something completely different). I also wonder whether removing .y'y. would be worthwhile--as mentioned, it's far from the only word ending with y, and as far as I know (can someone correct me on this?) y is also valid at the begining of cmene and type-4 fu'ivla (hmmm, vlatai seems to think it's not valid in fu'ivla, but is in cmene).
I wonder what the usage of {ybu} vs {y bu} is, and whether we could allow the former and eliminate the latter? But on the whole, yes, get rid of it everywhere (and even {.y'y.} if you have to). -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Will respond to rest later.
On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 09:40:55AM -0600, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: > I also wonder whether removing .y'y. would be worthwhile--as > mentioned, it's far from the only word ending with y, and as far > as I know (can someone correct me on this?) y is also valid at the > begining of cmene and type-4 fu'ivla (hmmm, vlatai seems to think > it's not valid in fu'ivla, but is in cmene).
Oh, dude, you *must* be joking. Can someone research this carefully and get back to us with chapter and verse? Pretty please?
-Robin
-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> Will respond to rest later. > > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 09:40:55AM -0600, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: >> I also wonder whether removing .y'y. would be worthwhile--as >> mentioned, it's far from the only word ending with y, and as far >> as I know (can someone correct me on this?) y is also valid at the >> begining of cmene and type-4 fu'ivla (hmmm, vlatai seems to think >> it's not valid in fu'ivla, but is in cmene). > > Oh, dude, you *must* be joking. Can someone research this carefully > and get back to us with chapter and verse? Pretty please?
..o'anai, turns out y isn't valid *anywhere* in a fu'ivla. (Chapter 4, section 7, number 4 in the first list)
4) cannot contain ``y, although they may contain syllabic pronunciations of Lojban consonants;
Chapter 4, section 9, says of cmene
2)
They may contain the letter y as a normal, non-hyphenating vowel. They are
the only kind of Lojban word that may contain the two diphthongs ``iy and
``uy.
Which I would interpret to mean (unless someone can find contradiction) that, for instance, {.ylkec.} is a valid cmene. -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/
Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. --Gandalf
On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 11:30:54AM -0600, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: > .o'anai, turns out y isn't valid *anywhere* in a fu'ivla. > (Chapter 4, section 7, number 4 in the first list)
I wouldn't be ashamed of that mistake; I'm quite shocked by this rule myself. I wonder where it comes from.
> Chapter 4, section 9, says of cmene > > 2) They may contain the letter y as a normal, non-hyphenating > vowel. They are the only kind of Lojban word that may contain the > two diphthongs ``iy and ``uy.
Those appear to be the only dipthongs that can be used with 'y'.
> Which I would interpret to mean (unless someone can find > contradiction) that, for instance, {.ylkec.} is a valid cmene.
I see no reason to disagree. In which case, words starting with 'y' aren't nearly as much a special case as I thought, so you all can certainly ignore everything I said about .y'y.
So, my new question is:
1. Should we make .y. extra-grammatical everywhere except before bu?
2. Should we make .y. extra-grammatical absolutely everywhere?
Both changes *DO* affect usage, as far as I know.
-Robin
-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 09:40:55AM -0600, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > > >1. .y. is ignored as whitespace everywhere except before a "bu". > > Absolutely support. > > >2. .y. is ignored absolutely everywhere; if we're going to do > >that we might as well drop the one other word in the language > >(.y'y.) that begins or ends with .y. as well for morphological > >simplicity. > > I almost entirely support this. My only misgiving is that it does > invalidate usage (specifically, any usage of .y.bu anywhere would > now mean something completely different).
But so does the first one; people *have* said "zo .y.". Here's some stuff from my test sentences file; these are all from IRC, and hence real usage.
Some of them, however, are categorically invalid ("zo .ybu", for example).
mu'i ma do ciska pilno zo y
mi pilno zo y fi le selciska
..ua lo cmene ka'e vasru zo .ybu .i mi ca tcidu
to la xod. na tugni gi'e cusku le merko zei zo .y. toi
le cuksu noi ca'a cusku zo .y.
..iku'i frili fa le nu se snuti tu'a zo .y.
However, I certainly believe that dropping "zo .y." is a vastly smaller change than dropping ".y. bu". Dropping "zo .y." would require people to use zoi to talk about a Lojban word, though, which is a bit... odd. I do think it's better than what we have now, though, in terms of user friendliness.
Actually, one could use {lu .y. li'u} or {lo'u .y. le'u}. These are both "cheating", since .y. is extragrammatical and should be ignored, but a non-obnoxious listener could probably handle it.
The other work around being "le sance po depsna bu" or, better in fact, "lo depsna" (assuming x1 of despna is the hesitation sound itself; I haven't properly defined it yet).
> I wonder what the usage of {ybu} vs {y bu} is, and whether we > could allow the former and eliminate the latter?
We cannot, no. Not without changing drastically the way Lojbanic morphology works, and likely not for the better.
-Robin
-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 10:03:52AM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: if we dropped "zo .y. > The other work around being "le sance po depsna bu" or, better in > fact, "lo depsna" (assuming x1 of despna is the hesitation sound > itself; I haven't properly defined it yet).
I'm sorry, those don't work to talk about the word ".y.", but {lo depsna valsi} and friends do.
-Robin
-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
Robin Lee Powell scripsit: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 11:30:54AM -0600, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: > > .o'anai, turns out y isn't valid *anywhere* in a fu'ivla. > > (Chapter 4, section 7, number 4 in the first list) > > I wouldn't be ashamed of that mistake; I'm quite shocked by this > rule myself. I wonder where it comes from.
The desire to use y as glue in creating luvjo that contain fu'ivla. That didn't work, so we tried using iy instead. That didn't work either, so we finally adopted zei and stopped trying to screw with the morphology. Conservatism said not to go back and allow y in fu'ivla.
-- Mark Twain on Cecil Rhodes: John Cowan "I admire him, I freely admit it, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan and when his time comes I shall http://www.reutershealth.com buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake." jcowan@reutershealth.com
Robin Lee Powell scripsit:
> Oh, dude, you *must* be joking. Can someone research this carefully > and get back to us with chapter and verse? Pretty please?
In cmene, y can be initial, and the diphthongs iy and uy (yuh and wuh respectively) are allowed, as are V'y, y'V, and y'y.
I think that V'y and y'V are permitted experimental cmavo, but I'm not sure.
y is definitely forbidden in both type 3 and type 4 fu'ivla.
Just to weigh in:
1) I don't mind playing games with the word .y. to make it ignored, but I do object to *@#$ing with the letter y, as if it were less in use than it really is.
2) I could see changing zo .y. fu to mean zo fu.
3) I'd have to be convinced pretty strongly that .y.bu should die.
4) Anything more than that I veto.
mi'e .Y'ym
-- "And it was said that ever after, if any John Cowan man looked in that Stone, unless he had a jcowan@reutershealth.com great strength of will to turn it to other www.ccil.org/~cowan purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering www.reutershealth.com in flame." --"The Pyre of Denethor"
On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 02:47:08PM -0500, John Cowan wrote: > Robin Lee Powell scripsit: > > > Oh, dude, you *must* be joking. Can someone research this > > carefully and get back to us with chapter and verse? Pretty > > please? > > In cmene, y can be initial, and the diphthongs iy and uy (yuh and > wuh respectively) are allowed, as are V'y, y'V, and y'y. > > I think that V'y and y'V are permitted experimental cmavo, but I'm > not sure.
Yes, I was full of shit. My bad.
> Just to weigh in: > > 1) I don't mind playing games with the word .y. to make it > ignored, but I do object to *@#$ing with the letter y, as if it > were less in use than it really is.
Yes, as I said, my bad.
> 2) I could see changing zo .y. fu to mean zo fu.
Cool.
> 3) I'd have to be convinced pretty strongly that .y.bu should die.
Yeah, I'm a lot less interested in that than I was.
> 4) Anything more than that I veto.
Half-veto, technically.
-Robin
-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
On Thursday 04 November 2004 18:26, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation > OK, so what do we do about ".y."? > > I'm of the opinion (caused by xorxes' arguments) that it should be as > extragramattical (sp?) as it can possibly be. It is ridiculous to assert > that someone who says "zo .y. pavyseljirna" is actually saying "zo .y. cu > pavyseljirna".
If I say {zo .y. cmavo}, however long I hold out the {y}, I mean {zo cmavo}, but if I say {zo .Y. cmavo}, I mean that {y} is a cmavo, and don't hold it out. I also stress the 'y' in lervla: {.Abu BY. CY. li'o KYbu. RY. li'o}.
phma -- li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 05:49:23PM -0500, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Thursday 04 November 2004 18:26, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > > Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation OK, so what do we do about ".y."? > > > > I'm of the opinion (caused by xorxes' arguments) that it should > > be as extragramattical (sp?) as it can possibly be. It is > > ridiculous to assert that someone who says "zo .y. pavyseljirna" > > is actually saying "zo .y. cu pavyseljirna". > > If I say {zo .y. cmavo}, however long I hold out the {y}, I mean > {zo cmavo}, but if I say {zo .Y. cmavo}, I mean that {y} is a > cmavo, and don't hold it out.
You can't *possibly* be suggesting that a vocally stressed {y} should be considered a real word, but a non-stressed {y} be considered white space, can you?
I half-veto in advance, in case you are.
-Robin
-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/
On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 04:43:44PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Fri, Nov 05, 2004 at 05:49:23PM -0500, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Thursday 04 November 2004 18:26, wikidiscuss@lojban.org > > wrote: > > > Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation OK, so what do we do about ".y."? > > > > > > I'm of the opinion (caused by xorxes' arguments) that it > > > should be as extragramattical (sp?) as it can possibly be. It > > > is ridiculous to assert that someone who says "zo .y. > > > pavyseljirna" is actually saying "zo .y. cu pavyseljirna". > > > > If I say {zo .y. cmavo}, however long I hold out the {y}, I mean > > {zo cmavo}, but if I say {zo .Y. cmavo}, I mean that {y} is a > > cmavo, and don't hold it out. > > You can't *possibly* be suggesting that a vocally stressed {y} > should be considered a real word, but a non-stressed {y} be > considered white space, can you?
Furthermore, how the hell do you even stress schwa? I mean, isn't that just a *grunt* at that point?
-Robin
On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:49:03 -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > Furthermore, how the hell do you even stress schwa? I mean, isn't > that just a *grunt* at that point?
Uh, the same way you stress any other vowel? Shwa is just a vowel. Pronounce it more loudly and/or at a higher pitch, to name two popular methods of accent.
mu'o mi'e .filip. --
Philip Newton
On Sat, Nov 06, 2004 at 02:21:09PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote: > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:49:03 -0800, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > Furthermore, how the hell do you even stress schwa? I mean, > > isn't that just a *grunt* at that point? > > Uh, the same way you stress any other vowel? Shwa is just a vowel. > Pronounce it more loudly and/or at a higher pitch, to name two > popular methods of accent.
Both of those sound like I'm having an orgasm.
Thanks, but no thanks.
-Robin
On Friday 05 November 2004 19:49, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > You can't *possibly* be suggesting that a vocally stressed {y} > > should be considered a real word, but a non-stressed {y} be > > considered white space, can you?
Only after {zo}, and we already have rules that change word boundaries depending on which vowel is stressed.
> Furthermore, how the hell do you even stress schwa? I mean, isn't > that just a *grunt* at that point?
The Albanians seem to do it, e.g. "është". English has some words too, such as "crumbly" /krYmbli/.
phma -- li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci
I consider this section (Hesitation) open for voting, although it's kinda out in the cold since I'm not done any of the others.
Please do not take the fact that I just added voting boxes to all the other Magic Words sections to indicate anything about their completeness.
If anyone else wants a poll for one of their sections, now would be a good time.
-Robin
>zo pavyseljirna cu vasru .y. bu I think this should be {zo pavyseljirna cu vasru me'o .y. bu}. As it stands, it means "The word 'unicorn' contains yttrium" (or whatever the letter 'y', used as a pronoun, stands for). -phma
> Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation > >zo pavyseljirna cu vasru .y. bu > I think this should be {zo pavyseljirna cu vasru me'o .y. bu}. As it stands, > it means "The word 'unicorn' contains yttrium" (or whatever the letter 'y', > used as a pronoun, stands for). -phma
Right. {zo pavyseljirna cu vasru .y. bu} really means "'pavyseljirna' contains it", where 'it' refers to something of the y-gender. Probably {me'o y bu} itself would be of y-gender, but the rules for establishing the BY-gender of sumti other than the very basic cases are not clear. So, if we are talking about {me'o y bu}, {y bu} could be used to refer to {me'o y bu}. Since {zo pavyseljirna} is a word, and words only contain letters, and the most likely letter to be referred with the pronoun {y bu} is 'y', then the sentence would be understandable, but {me'o y bu} is better. (Even with something like {le blabi xirma} I hesitate among {by}, {xy} and {by xy} when choosing the pronoun.)
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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wrote:
> > > Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation > > >zo pavyseljirna cu vasru .y. bu > > I think this should be {zo pavyseljirna cu > vasru me'o .y. bu}. As it stands, > > it means "The word 'unicorn' contains > yttrium" (or whatever the letter 'y', > > used as a pronoun, stands for). -phma > > Right. {zo pavyseljirna cu vasru .y. bu} really > means > "'pavyseljirna' contains it", where 'it' refers > to something > of the y-gender. Probably {me'o y bu} itself > would be > of y-gender, but the rules for establishing the > BY-gender of > sumti other than the very basic cases are not > clear. So, if > we are talking about {me'o y bu}, {y bu} could > be used to > refer to {me'o y bu}. Since {zo pavyseljirna} > is a word, and > words only contain letters, and the most likely > letter to be > referred with the pronoun {y bu} is 'y', then > the sentence > would be understandable, but {me'o y bu} is > better. (Even with > something like {le blabi xirma} I hesitate > among {by}, {xy} > and {by xy} when choosing the pronoun.) > xorxes raises a nice point, which I have not seen discussed, though I am sure it has been. In the desperate hope of getting a usable anaphora system, "gender" seems the only hope-- dividing expressions into classes and then referring back to expressions as being the relevant one of its class. Since "natural gender" - masculine, feminine, neuter; animate, inanimate; small round things, large straight things; things owned by the emperor, things drawn with camel-hair brushes; and so on - are for the most part hopelessly arbitrary (abstractions and boats are feminine — even the James Forrestal; diminutives are neuter; books but also the tallest mountain in Africa are small things) and so requiring learning each case separately and since Lojban has not declensions or the like, the letters of the words involved become the default classifiers. And the first letters at that, being the most obvious and (hopefully)memorable. But when there are choices, which does one choose? Is {le blabi zdani} to be anaphorized as {zy} or {by} or {by zy}. The answer pretty generally is the shortest that is distinctive, preferring the modified to the modifier. So {zy} if there are no other z words, but {by zy} (or maybe just {by} if there are other houses in the discussion — or other z words generally. And if we get down to a context with {le blabi zdani} and {le blanu zdani} and {le blaci zdani} we fall back on baisc anaphora, literal repetition of as much as is deistinctive: :{le blabi}, {le blanu} and {le blaci}, unless there are other blue, white and glass things around, in which case we need full repetition. Messy but workable up to a point — a more remote one than positional systems, for example.
On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 06:56:14AM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation > >zo pavyseljirna cu vasru .y. bu > I think this should be {zo pavyseljirna cu vasru me'o .y. bu}. As > it stands, it means "The word 'unicorn' contains yttrium" (or > whatever the letter 'y', used as a pronoun, stands for). -phma
Fixed.
-Robin
Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation OK, so what do we do about ".y."?
I'm of the opinion (caused by xorxes' arguments) that it should be as extragramattical (sp?) as it can possibly be. It is ridiculous to assert that someone who says "zo .y. pavyseljirna" is actually saying "zo .y. cu pavyseljirna".
I think that ".y." should be treated a pure whitespace everywhere except before a "bu". And, frankly, I'd rather get rid of that, too, so that if you want to talk about ".y." you have to say "zoi zoi .y. zoi". For the letter we could say "depsna bu" or something. It'd be nice to drop ".y'y." as well at that point, and say that "y" can only appear inside words; the letter could be "jbini bu" or something.
Huh. It appears that Lojban has no gismu for "vowels". Anyways.
I'd like to know how much support there is for either of these ideas. Repeating:
1. .y. is ignored as whitespace everywhere except before a "bu".
2. .y. is ignored absolutely everywhere; if we're going to do that we might as well drop the one other word in the language (.y'y.) that begins or ends with .y. as well for morphological simplicity.
Once I know if either of these might pass a vote, I'll get seriously to work on the magic words.
-Robin
Re: BPFK Section: Hesitation >zo pavyseljirna cu vasru .y. bu I think this should be {zo pavyseljirna cu vasru me'o .y. bu}. As it stands, it means "The word 'unicorn' contains yttrium" (or whatever the letter 'y', used as a pronoun, stands for). -phma