Lojban versions and change scripts

dbrock

{{{2}}}

someone recently proposed we change the meaning of y'y

vensa

{{{2}}}

it was I :)

dbrock

{{{2}}}

which is another interesting idea that becomes a complete waste of time when you actually suggest it for real

vensa

{{{2}}}

dbrock: y?

vensa

{{{2}}}

was there not a "big rafsi reallocation"?

dbrock

{{{2}}}

might as well run for president

vensa

{{{2}}}

change happens!

vensa

{{{2}}}

stop being such a stick in the mud

dbrock

{{{2}}}

yeah, I guess I'm a pessimist

vensa

{{{2}}}

what do you think about my version-scripting system?

dbrock

{{{2}}}

I haven't heard anything about it

vensa

{{{2}}}

my proposition is that the current lojban be dubbed "lojban v1.0" and the lojban after the bpfk is done will be "lojban v2.0"

vensa

{{{2}}}

lojban could keep being developed, and CHANGED, according to usage and what proves most useful as we gain more speakers and speaking experience

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

vensa, and pre-xorlo would be what? 0.1-beta3? ;-)

vensa

{{{2}}}

the obvious problem with this is that documents written in "lojban 1.0" may have a totally different meaning under "lojban 3.0"

vensa

{{{2}}}

uuk: I wanted to say that . yes.

vensa

{{{2}}}

that is where the "script" idea comes in:

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

vensa, I have a solution

vensa

{{{2}}}

every new standard version (which would only be released by the BPFK of course) will also have to come with a set of "scripts" or "algorithms" for converting the previous version of lojban into this one

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

add a word that misparses straight away, that means 'The following is lojban version x1'

vensa

{{{2}}}

for example, in this case the script would be paunai=>paucu'i, and since paucu'i was previously undefined that is all

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

that way, old interpreters / parsers will stop at the very beginning

vensa

{{{2}}}

uuk: yes, we also might want a cmavo that declares the version number

tomoj

{{{2}}}

impossible in general, I think

dbrock

{{{2}}}

the conversion script sounds like a waste of time

tomoj

{{{2}}}

at least, requiring conversion scripts restricts the kinds of changes you can make

vensa

{{{2}}}

tomoj: challenge me

vensa

{{{2}}}

what cant be done in a script?

dbrock

{{{2}}}

but a cmavo that indicates dialect or version? sure, that would be useful

tomoj

{{{2}}}

e.g. imagine trying to convert pre-xorlo to xorlo

vensa

{{{2}}}

I thought about it already

tomoj

{{{2}}}

you could, I guess, simply replace every le with lo, but..

ksion

{{{2}}}

doi la vensa ma smuni lo'u paucu'i le'u

vensa

{{{2}}}

but it probably requires a deep understanding of what xorlo does, which I dont :)

dbrock

{{{2}}}

you could just use bau ko'a at the start of your text

vensa

{{{2}}}

ksion: the proposal is that paucu'i be the new "rhetorical question" and paunai changed to "answer follows"

tomoj

{{{2}}}

what I'm saying is that deep understanding is required, but not of the change, of the text you're trying to convert

dbrock

{{{2}}}

bau lo fadni for standard Lojban, for example

mathw

{{{2}}}

which standard? when? :)

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

le is unchanged under xorlo, and lo only gains meaning. So previous text can be left unchanged.

tomoj

{{{2}}}

certainly not?

vensa

{{{2}}}

tomoj: I would ultimately replace every le with lo, unless it had a bi'unai after it, in which case I would make it le

dbrock

{{{2}}}

mathw: I dunno, CLL/BPFK/whatever?

vensa

{{{2}}}

tomoj: you also need to think how you would translate pre-xorlo lo

tomoj

{{{2}}}

pre-xorlo re lo ci bakni needs to be changed, right?

vensa

{{{2}}}

and that also has a def under xorlo I beleve

mathw

{{{2}}}

dbrock: just pointing out that the standard changes, so you can't just say 'this is standard lojban', you'd have to say 'this is standard lojban as of the first of may 2011'

mathw

{{{2}}}

or something

vensa

{{{2}}}

yes

mathw

{{{2}}}

translating to xorlo would require careful attention to the numbers of things, wouldn't it?

vensa

{{{2}}}

tomoj: re lo ci bakni poi zasti po'o vi lo munje :P

mathw

{{{2}}}

I believe that changes a bit

mathw

{{{2}}}

But I never understood non-xorlo quantities so I will refrain from further comment

vensa

{{{2}}}

IMO it CAN be done

mathw

{{{2}}}

oh it can sure

vensa

{{{2}}}

(the version script)

vensa

{{{2}}}

maybe there will be a small percent of innacuracy

mathw

{{{2}}}

.u'i mu bakni

vensa

{{{2}}}

but that's still better than nothing

ksion

{{{2}}}

vensa: i'e I like it.

soto

{{{2}}}

imo we should just leave it untranslated :p

vensa

{{{2}}}

and it allows us to "grow" with the times

vensa

{{{2}}}

and not be stuck in the mud becuz "someone 500 yrs ago decided it should be this and not that"

vensa

{{{2}}}

ki'esai ksion

vensa

{{{2}}}

soto: ppl like rlp who have written 60K word essays wont like that their writings are no longer supported...

vensa

{{{2}}}

like windows95 :P

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: whats ur opinion on the version scripts?

vensa

{{{2}}}

it seems to me fitting that lojban have version numbers. after all, it is mostly used by computer programmers :P

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

think a lot of the work is figuring out what (if anything) old versions actually meant. And much of the changes are fixing that. So I don't think we can necessarily convert.

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

version numbers seems useful

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

requiring a script for all changes seems to assume that we can agree on what things were, which is often the problem in itself.

mathw

{{{2}}}

And often a reason why a change is proposed in the first place from what I've seen

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: true

vensa

{{{2}}}

so in places where there was no previous explicit meaning, we can maybe add a conversion comment

vensa

{{{2}}}

to'isa'a na se djuno toi :)

vensa

{{{2}}}

but think of all the rafsi that could be reallocated easily

vensa

{{{2}}}

and the cultural gismus that can be abolished and turned into fu'ivla

mathw

{{{2}}}

co'o

vensa

{{{2}}}

co'o mat

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

Those are both arguments *against* what you're attempting to do, in my mind.

vensa

{{{2}}}

hehehe

vensa

{{{2}}}

becuz YOU dont want to need to relearn stuff. right?

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

"Who cares if we fuck over the people who learned the language earlier? They can just apply this 300 line sed script to their minds, and all is good."

vensa

{{{2}}}

I knew youd say that :)

vensa

{{{2}}}

<3

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: you are right

vensa

{{{2}}}

but think of the other hand

vensa

{{{2}}}

being stuck for ages with a bad choice of gismu or grammar, way after all those ancestral lojbaners have died

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

we could have 3-way handshakes to determine the version of lojban to use at start of a discussion! how cool would that be?

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: we can put it a standard that a change may only happen once in X years

vensa

{{{2}}}

uuk: lol

ksion

{{{2}}}

UukGoblin: ACKsai

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: you could still talk in lojban1.0 with you lojban1.0 buddies :)

vensa

{{{2}}}

kinda like old folks speak yiddish

vensa

{{{2}}}

and dont know slang

ksion

{{{2}}}

<?lojban version="1.0"?>

vensa

{{{2}}}

 :)

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

I don't think a conversion script is necessary or sufficient to allow for unlimited changes to the language, and I am undecided on whether its utility outweighs its cost.

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: a conversion script will also make sure that it is harder to change stuff

vensa

{{{2}}}

cuz you need to supply the script

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

agreed, major changes might require interpretation, not just mere transcription

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

Right, and that's part of the cost.

vensa

{{{2}}}

but you wanted things to not change

soto

{{{2}}}

Having "number versions" for a language seems incredibly odd to me, but then I imagine a robot saying coi do. I speak lojban v2.35. Beep. and then I am tempted to change my mind because robots are so cool!

vensa

{{{2}}}

make upo your mind

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

And then arguing forever about whether your script is *right*, instead of just about the merits of the change.

vensa

{{{2}}}

soto: lol

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: the scripting should be handled by a seperate "backoffice" department of the BPFK :)

vensa

{{{2}}}

btw: you guys didnt address an open issue of "how do we convert audio recordings"

vensa

{{{2}}}

but I am assuming that is equally as plausible, assuming we have a powerful speech-recognizer

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

loi

• vensa fantasizes about lojban3.0 where tel would be the rafsi or te and go'i would switch places with goi :)

@Broca

{{{2}}}

What would you change go'a to?

vensa

{{{2}}}

(and a'y e'y i'y... would replace the ugly abu ebu ibu)

vensa

{{{2}}}

valsi go'a

valsi

{{{2}}}

go'a = pro-bridi: repeats a recent bridi (usually not the last 2).

labnytru

{{{2}}}

coi rodo

vensa

{{{2}}}

go'a could stay go'a

labnytru

{{{2}}}

I was wondering...

vensa

{{{2}}}

I just think that since go'i is so frequently used, it should be reduced to 1 syllable

labnytru

{{{2}}}

What would be a good Lojban translation for "infinite"?

vensa

{{{2}}}

valsi cimni

kribacr

{{{2}}}

I think ji'i?

valsi

{{{2}}}

cimni = x1 is infinite/unending/eternal in property/dimension x2, to degree x3 (quantity)/of type x3.

@Broca

{{{2}}}

Why do you think tel should replace ter?

kribacr

{{{2}}}

There's a number for infinitity. I know that much.

vensa

{{{2}}}

valsi ci'i

valsi

{{{2}}}

ci'i = digit/number: infinity; followed by digits => aleph cardinality.

kribacr

{{{2}}}

ci'i, sorry.

kribacr

{{{2}}}

Yeah, based off of cimni. Makes sense.

labnytru

{{{2}}}

Ah, thanks.

kribacr

{{{2}}}

I knew it was Ci'i.

vensa

{{{2}}}

broca: for aesthetic cohedrence: sel tel vel xel

labnytru

{{{2}}}

Well, I've got good news.

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

vensa, there was a reason why ter is not tel

@Broca

{{{2}}}

vensa: but you don't think go'a go'e go'i go'o go'u should be coherent?

labnytru

{{{2}}}

I've found an official tutor, and am currently in the process of setting up a website and doing some SEO so that my income will be taken care of permanently.

vensa

{{{2}}}

yes. because of stupid gismu for stela

labnytru

{{{2}}}

What does this mean to the Lojban community?

UukGoblin

{{{2}}}

you can't just go around changing everything for aesthetic reasons ;-]

labnytru

{{{2}}}

It means I'm going to come here and stay here once I'm prepared.

vensa

{{{2}}}

broca: that is a place where brevity trumps coherence IMO

vensa

{{{2}}}

valsi go'u

valsi

{{{2}}}

go'u = pro-bridi: repeats a remote past bridi.

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

vensa: strongly disagree

labnytru

{{{2}}}

I'll learn the entirety of the language and make this chatroom my "home".

vensa

{{{2}}}

broca: and go'u is not even in its right place in the series

labnytru

{{{2}}}

brb

vensa

{{{2}}}

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

vensa: strongly disagree <-- about what?

vensa

{{{2}}}

(there, I copied this time :]

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

go'i/go'a/go'u follows the normal yow series. That leaves go'e and go'o for ad-hoc interpretation.

vensa

{{{2}}}

(it's hard for me to copy cuz my mouse is laptop-internal :()

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

vensa: I think breaking go'i out of the series is not justified by brevity considerations.

@Broca

{{{2}}}

But why stop there? If what you need is brevity, why not just do go'i → .a?

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: cool. didnt think of it that way. thanks

vensa

{{{2}}}

broca: that diff seems smaller than the diff between 1 and 2 syllables

@Broca

{{{2}}}

So you seriously think swapping goi and go'i could be done?

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: but it is justified to break a series for stupid rafsi considerations???

vensa

{{{2}}}

broca: why not? everything is possible

@Broca

{{{2}}}

That is not funny. GDIAF.

vensa

{{{2}}}

ki'a GDIAF?

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

"everything is possible": Not in my Everett branch!

vensa

{{{2}}}

huh?

@Broca

{{{2}}}

http://www.google.com/search?q=gdiaf

vensa

{{{2}}}

not familiar with everet

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Everett_branch

vensa

{{{2}}}

broca: I dont understand the motive for your hostility. u'i

vensa

{{{2}}}

si

vensa

{{{2}}}

u'u

vensa

{{{2}}}

(my finger slipped)

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: oh. multiverse

vensa

{{{2}}}

you guys are like the two grumps in the muppets :)

vensa

{{{2}}}

thats cute

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

I think -tel- would be a better rafsi for te than -ter-, if starting from scratch. I just don't think the difference is sufficient to be worth changing.

@Broca

{{{2}}}

xalbo: why do we always come here?

vensa

{{{2}}}

.u'i

@xalbo

{{{2}}}

Broca: I just enjoy seeing the curtain close at the end.

vensa

{{{2}}}

xalbo: fair enough

@Broca

{{{2}}}

Ha ha ha ha!

vensa

{{{2}}}

but with my scripting system, it may be possible to change without upsetting the system too much

@Broca

{{{2}}}

(Your line is “I guess we'll never know”, by the way)

vensa

{{{2}}}

.u'isai doi mapets