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''Ergativity'', '''gausmi''' or '''gernrgativiti''' (suggested by  [[And Rosta]]) in Lojban


As [[pne]] understands it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.


As [[pne]] understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.
For a very brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html part of a rant against Esperanto], but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach "E" in that list.
==the case of '''xruti'''===
English does not always marks the ergative-absolutive distinction. E.g. ''return'' can mean:
#to return to some place ({{jvs|xruti}})
#to return someone to some place ({{jvs|volve}})


For a '''very''' brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list.
The place structure of '''xruti''' has changed during its history. A [http://66.111.43.200/~jkominek/nuzban/wiki/index.php?Gismu%20list%20errata note from 1994] says that '''xruti''' was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the gismu lists of 9-6-94.
* I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift.


''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?''
== Non-agentive form & it's corresponding agentive form ==
<tab class=wikitable>
cfari begins cfagau initiates
denpa pauses depygau delays
tolcfa comes to a stop sisti/dicra halts/interrupts
sezyxru reverts xruti restores
cenba varies cenbygau/cnegau alters
jelca burns jelgau ignites
snura is secure bandu protects
masno is slow snogau/jabre retards/brakes
muvdu moves muvgau causes to move
mrobi'o dies catra kills
banro develops banrygau nurtures
zenba increases zengau augments
banzu suffices bazgau fulfills
culno is full tisna fills
basti takes the place of basygau replaces
klama goes bevri conveys
bilma is sick bilmygau sickens
bredi is ready redgau prepares
carna turns cargau rotates
selcfipu is confused cfipu confuses
cilre learns ctuca teaches
ckeji feels ashamed kejgau humiliates
kakne is able curmi allows
curve is pure cuvgau purifies
danfu is an answer dafsku/frati replies
drani is correct dragau rectifies
farlu falls falgau drops
fatne is backwards fatygau reverses
febvi comes to a boil fabgau boils
porpi comes apart popygau breaks
fukpi is a copy fukyzba duplicates
gacri is a cover gairgau covers over
ganlo is closed ganlygau closes
gusni illumines gusygau illuminates
jdika contracts jdikygau decreases
jinru bathes jirgau immerses
jorne is joined to jongau connects
katna cutter katnygau cuts
burcu brush bruzu'e paints
komcu is a comb komzu'e combs
korcu is bent krogau bends
krefu repeats refygau causes to recur
kunti is empty kutygau vacates
gapru is above lafti lifts
lunbe is bare lubgau denudes
manku is dark mangau darkens
mapti fits matygau matches
muvdu is in motion muvgau moves
selnupre is a promise nupre promises
pagre penetrates gregau causes to penetrate
panlo is a slice panlyzba slices
pijne is a pin pijnylasna pins
pindi is poor pidgau impoverishes
preti is a question retsku/tese preti asks a question
preja expands pejgau spreads
cpana is on punji puts on/at
zvati at punji puts on/at
punli is a swelling pulgau swells
ranji lasts ranjygau causes to last (makes lasting
ranti is soft rangau softens
ricfu is rich cfugau enriches
panzi offspring rorci procreates
viknu is thick viknygau thickens
ruble is weak blegau weakens
runme is melting rumgau makes melt
runta dissolves runtygau makes dissolve
sepli is apart fendi divides
nenri is within setca inserts
jbini is between setca interposes
spoja explodes pojgau blows up
sraku is sharp rakygau scratches
sudga is dry sudgau dries off
sutra is fast sutygau hastens
tcena stretches tengau extends
terpa fears tepygau frightenss
tinsa is stiff tensygau stiffens
titla is sweet titygau sweetens
tordu is short torgau shortens
tsali is strong tsagau strengthens
tsapi ia a spice tsapygau seasons
vasru contains vasygau encloses
vlipa is powerful vligau empowers
vreji is a record of rejgau records
vrusi is a flavor vusyga'e tastes
panci is an odor sumne smells
zasti exists zbasu creates
zekri is a crime zerzukte commits a crime
zifre is free zifygau liberates
</tab>
There are doubtless others.


* ''gernrgativiti'' --[[And]] (mi stidi)
One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:
<tab class=wikitable>
'''smuni''' has meaning '''te smuni''' interprets
'''tatpi''' is tired '''se tatpi''' tires
'''fengu''' is angry '''se fengu''' angers
'''torni''' is twisting '''se torni''' twists
'''xalni''' is panicked '''se xalni''' terrifies
'''zgike''' is music '''se zgike''' makes music
</tab>


Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",
'''zil-''' is useful too:
<tab class=wikitable>
'''zilsti''' comes to a stop '''sisti''' halts
'''zilsti''' comes to a stop '''dicra''' interrupts
'''zilxru''' reverts '''xruti''' restores
'''zilcatra''' dies '''catra''' kills
'''zilcfipu'' is confused '''cfipu''' confuses
</tab>


the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See [[Ergativity]].
*[[pne|.filip.]]:
**Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any '''catra'''ing involved. I'd use '''mrobi'o''' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of '''zil-''' in this manner. '''xu la .andban. cu lojbo?''')
***It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views).


== Non-Agentive form & it's corresponding Agentive: ==
Lojban distinguishes [[forms of causation|forms of causation]]... One could extend the foregoing series with "each of the others".
 
|| cfari | begins | cfagau | initiates
 
denpa | pauses | depygau | delays
 
tolcfa | comes to a stop | sisti/dicra | halts/interrupts)
 
sezyxru | reverts | xruti | restores
 
cenba | varies | cenbygau/cnegau | alters
 
jelca | burns | jelgau | ignites
 
snura | is secure | bandu | protects
 
masno | is slow | snogau/jabre | retards/brakes)
 
muvdu | moves | muvgau | causes to move
 
mrobi'o | dies | catra | kills
 
banro | develops | banrygau | nurtures
 
zenba | increases | zengau | augments
 
banzu | suffices | bazgau | fulfills
 
culno | is full | tisna | fills
 
basti | takes the place of | basygau | replaces
 
klama | goes | bevri | conveys
 
bilma | is sick | bilmygau | sickens
 
bredi | is ready | redgau | prepares
 
carna | turns | cargau | rotates
 
selcfipu | is confused | cfipu | confuses
 
cilre | learns | ctuca | teaches
 
ckeji | feels ashamed | kejgau | humiliates
 
kakne | is able | curmi | allows
 
curve | is pure | cuvgau | purifies
 
danfu | is an answer | dafsku/frati | replies
 
drani | is correct | dragau | rectifies
 
farlu | falls | falgau | drops
 
fatne | is backwards | fatygau | reverses
 
febvi | comes to a boil | fabgau | boils
 
porpi | comes apart | popygau | breaks
 
fukpi | is a copy | fukyzba | duplicates
 
gacri | is a cover | gairgau | covers over
 
ganlo | is closed | ganlygau | closes
 
gusni | illumines | gusygau | illuminates
 
jdika | contracts | jdikygau | decreases
 
jinru | bathes | jirgau | immerses
 
jorne | is joined to | jongau | connects
 
katna | cutter | katnygau | cuts
 
burcu | brush | bruzu'e | paints
 
komcu | is a comb | komzu'e | combs
 
korcu | is bent | krogau | bends
 
krefu | repeats | refygau | causes to recur
 
kunti | is empty | kutygau | vacates
 
gapru | is above | lafti | lifts
 
lunbe | is bare | lubgau | denudes
 
manku | is dark | mangau | darkens
 
mapti | fits | matygau | matches
 
muvdu | is in motion | muvgau | moves
 
selnupre | is a promise | nupre | promises
 
pagre | penetrates | gregau | causes to penetrate
 
panlo | is a slice | panlyzba | slices
 
pijne | is a pin | pijnylasna | pins
 
pindi | is poor | pidgau | impoverishes
 
preti | is a question | retsku/tese preti | asks a question
 
preja | expands | pejgau | spreads
 
cpana | is on | punji | puts on/at
 
zvati | at | punji | puts on/at
 
punli | is a swelling | pulgau | swells
 
ranji | lasts | ranjygau | causes to last (makes lasting)
 
ranti | is soft | rangau | softens
 
ricfu | is rich | cfugau | enriches
 
panzi | offspring | rorci | procreates
 
viknu | is thick | viknygau | thickens
 
ruble | is weak | blegau | weakens
 
runme | is melting | rumgau | makes melt
 
runta | dissolves | runtygau | makes dissolve
 
sepli | is apart | fendi | divides
 
nenri | is within | setca | inserts
 
jbini | is between | setca | interposes
 
spoja | explodes | pojgau | blows up
 
sraku | is sharp | rakygau | scratches
 
sudga | is dry | sudgau | dries off
 
sutra | is fast | sutygau | hastens
 
tcena | stretches | tengau | extends
 
terpa | fears | tepygau | frightenss
 
tinsa | is stiff | tensygau | stiffens
 
titla | is sweet | titygau | sweetens
 
tordu | is short | torgau | shortens
 
tsali | is strong | tsagau | strengthens
 
tsapi | ia a spice | tsapygau | seasons
 
vasru | contains | vasygau | encloses
 
vlipa | is powerful | vligau | empowers
 
vreji | is a record of | rejgau | records
 
vrusi | is a flavor | vusyga'e | tastes
 
panci | is an odor | sumne | smells
 
zasti | exists | zbasu | creates
 
zekri | is a crime | zerzukte | commits a crime
 
zifre | is free | zifygau | liberates ||
 
(There are doubtless others.)
 
* The place structure of ''xruti'' has changed during its history...
** A note [http://66.111.43.200/~jkominek/nuzban/wiki/index.php?Gismu%20list%20errata here] says (1994) that ''xruti'' was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the ''gismu'' lists of 9-6-94.
 
** I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift.
 
* Lojban distinguishes [[forms of causation|forms of causation]]...One could extend the foregoing series with ''each of the others''.
 
* One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:
** ''smuni'' has meaning---------------''tersmu'' interprets
 
** ''tatpi'' is tired------------------''seltatpi'' tires
** ''fengu'' is angry------------------''selfengu'' angers
 
** ''torni'' is twisting---------------''seltorni'' twists
** ''xalni'' is panicked---------------''selxalni'' terrifies
 
** ''zgike'' is music------------------''selzgi'' makes music
 
----
 
That's a very useful list. We shouldn't overlook the usefulness of ''zil-'', though:
 
;''zilsti'' comes to a stop :''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts)
 
;''zilxru'' reverts :''xruti'' restores
 
;''zilcatra'' dies :''catra'' kills
 
;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses
 
--[[And]]
 
* Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e [[pne|.filip.]]
* It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.)

Revision as of 18:06, 28 November 2014

Ergativity, gausmi or gernrgativiti (suggested by And Rosta) in Lojban

As pne understands it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.

For a very brief overview of different case-marking systems, see part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach "E" in that list.

the case of xruti=

English does not always marks the ergative-absolutive distinction. E.g. return can mean:

  1. to return to some place (xruti)
  2. to return someone to some place (volve)

The place structure of xruti has changed during its history. A note from 1994 says that xruti was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the gismu lists of 9-6-94.

  • I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift.

Non-agentive form & it's corresponding agentive form

<tab class=wikitable> cfari begins cfagau initiates denpa pauses depygau delays tolcfa comes to a stop sisti/dicra halts/interrupts sezyxru reverts xruti restores cenba varies cenbygau/cnegau alters jelca burns jelgau ignites snura is secure bandu protects masno is slow snogau/jabre retards/brakes muvdu moves muvgau causes to move mrobi'o dies catra kills banro develops banrygau nurtures zenba increases zengau augments banzu suffices bazgau fulfills culno is full tisna fills basti takes the place of basygau replaces klama goes bevri conveys bilma is sick bilmygau sickens bredi is ready redgau prepares carna turns cargau rotates selcfipu is confused cfipu confuses cilre learns ctuca teaches ckeji feels ashamed kejgau humiliates kakne is able curmi allows curve is pure cuvgau purifies danfu is an answer dafsku/frati replies drani is correct dragau rectifies farlu falls falgau drops fatne is backwards fatygau reverses febvi comes to a boil fabgau boils porpi comes apart popygau breaks fukpi is a copy fukyzba duplicates gacri is a cover gairgau covers over ganlo is closed ganlygau closes gusni illumines gusygau illuminates jdika contracts jdikygau decreases jinru bathes jirgau immerses jorne is joined to jongau connects katna cutter katnygau cuts burcu brush bruzu'e paints komcu is a comb komzu'e combs korcu is bent krogau bends krefu repeats refygau causes to recur kunti is empty kutygau vacates gapru is above lafti lifts lunbe is bare lubgau denudes manku is dark mangau darkens mapti fits matygau matches muvdu is in motion muvgau moves selnupre is a promise nupre promises pagre penetrates gregau causes to penetrate panlo is a slice panlyzba slices pijne is a pin pijnylasna pins pindi is poor pidgau impoverishes preti is a question retsku/tese preti asks a question preja expands pejgau spreads cpana is on punji puts on/at zvati at punji puts on/at punli is a swelling pulgau swells ranji lasts ranjygau causes to last (makes lasting ranti is soft rangau softens ricfu is rich cfugau enriches panzi offspring rorci procreates viknu is thick viknygau thickens ruble is weak blegau weakens runme is melting rumgau makes melt runta dissolves runtygau makes dissolve sepli is apart fendi divides nenri is within setca inserts jbini is between setca interposes spoja explodes pojgau blows up sraku is sharp rakygau scratches sudga is dry sudgau dries off sutra is fast sutygau hastens tcena stretches tengau extends terpa fears tepygau frightenss tinsa is stiff tensygau stiffens titla is sweet titygau sweetens tordu is short torgau shortens tsali is strong tsagau strengthens tsapi ia a spice tsapygau seasons vasru contains vasygau encloses vlipa is powerful vligau empowers vreji is a record of rejgau records vrusi is a flavor vusyga'e tastes panci is an odor sumne smells zasti exists zbasu creates zekri is a crime zerzukte commits a crime zifre is free zifygau liberates </tab> There are doubtless others.

One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places: <tab class=wikitable> smuni has meaning te smuni interprets tatpi is tired se tatpi tires fengu is angry se fengu angers torni is twisting se torni twists xalni is panicked se xalni terrifies zgike is music se zgike makes music </tab>

zil- is useful too: <tab class=wikitable> zilsti comes to a stop sisti halts zilsti comes to a stop dicra interrupts zilxru reverts xruti restores zilcatra dies catra kills 'zilcfipu is confused cfipu confuses </tab>

  • .filip.:
    • Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any catraing involved. I'd use mrobi'o (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of zil- in this manner. xu la .andban. cu lojbo?)
      • It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views).

Lojban distinguishes forms of causation... One could extend the foregoing series with "each of the others".