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BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe - Revision history
2024-03-28T22:30:00Z
Revision history for this page on the wiki
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https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=BPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe&diff=102972&oldid=prev
Gleki: Gleki moved page bPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe to BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe over a redirect without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "bPFK" to "BPFK"
2014-07-02T12:15:19Z
<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=bPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="bPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe (page does not exist)">bPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe</a> to <a href="/papri/BPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe" title="BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe">BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe</a> over a redirect without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "bPFK" to "BPFK"</p>
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Gleki
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Conversion script: Conversion script moved page BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe to bPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe: Converting page titles to lowercase
2014-06-30T08:09:09Z
<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/BPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe" title="BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe">BPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe</a> to <a href="/index.php?title=bPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="bPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe (page does not exist)">bPFK gismu Proposal: kanpe</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
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Gleki at 06:26, 19 June 2014
2014-06-19T06:26:41Z
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 06:26, 19 June 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Written by </ins>[[Robin Powell|Robin Powell]] <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">proposed </ins>the creation of a new gismu, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{jvs|</ins>kanpe<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Robin Powell|Robin Powell]] <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">propose </del>the creation of a new gismu, kanpe<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Justification ==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Justification ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The notes for ''pacna'' suggest its use as <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>expect<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>, but the keywords, and actual usage, make it clear that ''pacna'' is about desire as well as expectation. The normal response to this would be to make a lujvo, but there are only about 3 words that have a place for the odds of something happening, and none of them help. ''cu'o'' isn't subjective enough to be useful, and has no rafsi anyways. The best lujvo I could come up with was something like nordjipa'a, which is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>incredibly<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </del>long for such a simple concept. Furthermore, we need to settle on whether ''pacna'' really can be used to mean <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>expect<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </del>without implying desire, so we're going to have to poke at the gismu list here no matter what we do.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The notes for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''pacna<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' suggest its use as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>expect<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, but the keywords, and actual usage, make it clear that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''pacna<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' is about desire as well as expectation. The normal response to this would be to make a lujvo, but there are only about 3 words that have a place for the odds of something happening, and none of them help. ''cu'o'' isn't subjective enough to be useful, and has no rafsi anyways. The best lujvo I could come up with was something like nordjipa'a, which is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>incredibly<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>long for such a simple concept. Furthermore, we need to settle on whether <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''pacna<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' really can be used to mean <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>expect<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </ins>without implying desire, so we're going to have to poke at the gismu list here no matter what we do.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, I propose that we tweak pacna a tiny bit to make it clear that desire is always implied, and add the gismu ''kanpe'' (generated by Arnt and Cowan from the old gismu algorithm) meaning "expect" (without implication of desire).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Therefore, I propose that we tweak <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>pacna<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>a tiny bit to make it clear that desire is always implied, and add the gismu <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''kanpe<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' (generated by Arnt and Cowan from the old gismu algorithm) meaning "expect" (without implication of desire).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Definition ==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Definition ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Based almost entirely on pacna.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Based almost entirely on <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>pacna<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I don't know how to generate potential rafsi and evaluate them; I think this word is of high utility, though. Could someone else take a look at that issue?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I don't know how to generate potential rafsi and evaluate them; I think this word is of high utility, though. Could someone else take a look at that issue?</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* valsi: kanpe</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* valsi: kanpe</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Keyword: expect</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Keyword: expect</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* rafsi: ??</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* rafsi: ??</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Definition: x1 expects/looks for the occurence of x2 (event), expected likelihood x3 (0-1, default li so'a (i.e. near 1]; x1 subjectively evaluates the likelihood of x2 (event) to be x3</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Definition: x1 expects/looks for the occurence of x2 (event), expected likelihood x3 (0-1, default li so'a (i.e. near 1]; x1 subjectively evaluates the likelihood of x2 (event) to be x3</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Notes: The value of x3 is a subjective estimate of likeliness according to x1, and is the basic determinant of whether kanpe means something like "hope" or "wish" or "expect", although kanpe never carries the connotation of desire; for that connotation see ''pacna''. ''kanpe'' with x3 not very close to 1 has no simple equivalent in English, but for objects/states with negligible expectation it is something like "wishing"; if the state is plausibly likely, it is something like "hoping". In both cases, though, the English implication of emotional desire is not present. The value will usually be expressed using inexact numbers ("li piso'u" to "li piro"); non-desirous wish (= ??), non-desirous hope (= ??); (cf. djica, pacna)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Notes: The value of x3 is a subjective estimate of likeliness according to x1, and is the basic determinant of whether kanpe means something like "hope" or "wish" or "expect", although kanpe never carries the connotation of desire; for that connotation see ''pacna''. ''kanpe'' with x3 not very close to 1 has no simple equivalent in English, but for objects/states with negligible expectation it is something like "wishing"; if the state is plausibly likely, it is something like "hoping". In both cases, though, the English implication of emotional desire is not present. The value will usually be expressed using inexact numbers ("li piso'u" to "li piro"); non-desirous wish (= ??), non-desirous hope (= ??); (cf. djica, pacna)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Effects on Other gismu and Usage ==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Effects on Other gismu and Usage ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* We'd need to add bit to the notes of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>pacna<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>indicating that even when <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>pacna<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' <u></ins>means<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>expect, it has the added content of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>desired<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, and that they should cf. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>kanpe<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>if the don't want that.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* We'd need to add bit to the notes of pacna indicating that even when pacna <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>means<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </del>expect, it has the added content of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>desired<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>, and that they should cf. kanpe if the don't want that.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I expect the effect on usage is totally non-existent.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I expect the effect on usage is totally non-existent.</div></td></tr>
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Gleki
https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=BPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe&diff=91763&oldid=prev
Gleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"
2014-03-23T15:02:32Z
<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:02, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Robin Powell|Robin Powell]] propose the creation of a new gismu, kanpe.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Robin Powell|Robin Powell]] propose the creation of a new gismu, kanpe.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Justification ==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Justification ==</div></td></tr>
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Gleki
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Gleki at 16:43, 4 November 2013
2013-11-04T16:43:52Z
<p></p>
<a href="https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=BPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe&diff=74424&oldid=63917">Show changes</a>
Gleki
https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=BPFK_gismu_Proposal:_kanpe&diff=63917&oldid=prev
Gleki at 16:42, 4 November 2013
2013-11-04T16:42:51Z
<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
<br />
As [[pne]] understand it, the practice of distinguishing between agent (ergative) and non-agent (absolutive), rather than between nonpatient (nominative) and patient (accusative) as is common in Indo-European languages.<br />
<br />
For a '''very''' brief overview of different case-marking systems, see [http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/r.html] -- part of a rant against Esperanto, but you can ignore that here; this appendix focuses only on cases. Ergative languages use approach (E) in his list.<br />
<br />
''How do we express this in Lojban? gausmi?''<br />
<br />
* ''gernrgativiti'' --[[And]] (mi stidi)<br />
<br />
Unfortunately English not always marks this distinction (e.g. "return",<br />
<br />
the infamous keyword of ''xruti'')... See [[Ergativity]].<br />
<br />
== Non-Agentive form & it's corresponding Agentive: ==<br />
<br />
|| cfari | begins | cfagau | initiates <br />
<br />
denpa | pauses | depygau | delays <br />
<br />
tolcfa | comes to a stop | sisti/dicra | halts/interrupts) <br />
<br />
sezyxru | reverts | xruti | restores <br />
<br />
cenba | varies | cenbygau/cnegau | alters <br />
<br />
jelca | burns | jelgau | ignites <br />
<br />
snura | is secure | bandu | protects <br />
<br />
masno | is slow | snogau/jabre | retards/brakes) <br />
<br />
muvdu | moves | muvgau | causes to move <br />
<br />
mrobi'o | dies | catra | kills <br />
<br />
banro | develops | banrygau | nurtures <br />
<br />
zenba | increases | zengau | augments <br />
<br />
banzu | suffices | bazgau | fulfills <br />
<br />
culno | is full | tisna | fills <br />
<br />
basti | takes the place of | basygau | replaces <br />
<br />
klama | goes | bevri | conveys <br />
<br />
bilma | is sick | bilmygau | sickens <br />
<br />
bredi | is ready | redgau | prepares <br />
<br />
carna | turns | cargau | rotates <br />
<br />
selcfipu | is confused | cfipu | confuses <br />
<br />
cilre | learns | ctuca | teaches <br />
<br />
ckeji | feels ashamed | kejgau | humiliates <br />
<br />
kakne | is able | curmi | allows <br />
<br />
curve | is pure | cuvgau | purifies <br />
<br />
danfu | is an answer | dafsku/frati | replies <br />
<br />
drani | is correct | dragau | rectifies <br />
<br />
farlu | falls | falgau | drops <br />
<br />
fatne | is backwards | fatygau | reverses <br />
<br />
febvi | comes to a boil | fabgau | boils <br />
<br />
porpi | comes apart | popygau | breaks <br />
<br />
fukpi | is a copy | fukyzba | duplicates <br />
<br />
gacri | is a cover | gairgau | covers over <br />
<br />
ganlo | is closed | ganlygau | closes <br />
<br />
gusni | illumines | gusygau | illuminates <br />
<br />
jdika | contracts | jdikygau | decreases <br />
<br />
jinru | bathes | jirgau | immerses <br />
<br />
jorne | is joined to | jongau | connects <br />
<br />
katna | cutter | katnygau | cuts <br />
<br />
burcu | brush | bruzu'e | paints <br />
<br />
komcu | is a comb | komzu'e | combs <br />
<br />
korcu | is bent | krogau | bends <br />
<br />
krefu | repeats | refygau | causes to recur <br />
<br />
kunti | is empty | kutygau | vacates <br />
<br />
gapru | is above | lafti | lifts <br />
<br />
lunbe | is bare | lubgau | denudes <br />
<br />
manku | is dark | mangau | darkens <br />
<br />
mapti | fits | matygau | matches <br />
<br />
muvdu | is in motion | muvgau | moves <br />
<br />
selnupre | is a promise | nupre | promises <br />
<br />
pagre | penetrates | gregau | causes to penetrate <br />
<br />
panlo | is a slice | panlyzba | slices <br />
<br />
pijne | is a pin | pijnylasna | pins <br />
<br />
pindi | is poor | pidgau | impoverishes <br />
<br />
preti | is a question | retsku/tese preti | asks a question <br />
<br />
preja | expands | pejgau | spreads <br />
<br />
cpana | is on | punji | puts on/at <br />
<br />
zvati | at | punji | puts on/at <br />
<br />
punli | is a swelling | pulgau | swells <br />
<br />
ranji | lasts | ranjygau | causes to last (makes lasting) <br />
<br />
ranti | is soft | rangau | softens <br />
<br />
ricfu | is rich | cfugau | enriches <br />
<br />
panzi | offspring | rorci | procreates <br />
<br />
viknu | is thick | viknygau | thickens <br />
<br />
ruble | is weak | blegau | weakens <br />
<br />
runme | is melting | rumgau | makes melt <br />
<br />
runta | dissolves | runtygau | makes dissolve <br />
<br />
sepli | is apart | fendi | divides <br />
<br />
nenri | is within | setca | inserts <br />
<br />
jbini | is between | setca | interposes <br />
<br />
spoja | explodes | pojgau | blows up <br />
<br />
sraku | is sharp | rakygau | scratches <br />
<br />
sudga | is dry | sudgau | dries off <br />
<br />
sutra | is fast | sutygau | hastens <br />
<br />
tcena | stretches | tengau | extends <br />
<br />
terpa | fears | tepygau | frightenss <br />
<br />
tinsa | is stiff | tensygau | stiffens <br />
<br />
titla | is sweet | titygau | sweetens <br />
<br />
tordu | is short | torgau | shortens <br />
<br />
tsali | is strong | tsagau | strengthens <br />
<br />
tsapi | ia a spice | tsapygau | seasons <br />
<br />
vasru | contains | vasygau | encloses <br />
<br />
vlipa | is powerful | vligau | empowers <br />
<br />
vreji | is a record of | rejgau | records <br />
<br />
vrusi | is a flavor | vusyga'e | tastes <br />
<br />
panci | is an odor | sumne | smells <br />
<br />
zasti | exists | zbasu | creates <br />
<br />
zekri | is a crime | zerzukte | commits a crime <br />
<br />
zifre | is free | zifygau | liberates ||<br />
<br />
(There are doubtless others.)<br />
<br />
* The place structure of ''xruti'' has changed during its history...<br />
** A note [http://66.111.43.200/~jkominek/nuzban/wiki/index.php?Gismu%20list%20errata here] says (1994) that ''xruti'' was to become non-agentive, although it remains agentive on the ''gismu'' lists of 9-6-94.<br />
<br />
** I will have to check my notes, but IIRC the non-agentive meaning was changed to the present agentive at about the same time as the Great Rafsi Shift.<br />
<br />
* Lojban distinguishes [[jbocre: forms of causation|forms of causation]]...One could extend the foregoing series with ''each of the others''.<br />
<br />
* One must also consider the "hidden doers", those with non-x1 agent places:<br />
** ''smuni'' has meaning---------------''tersmu'' interprets<br />
<br />
** ''tatpi'' is tired------------------''seltatpi'' tires<br />
** ''fengu'' is angry------------------''selfengu'' angers<br />
<br />
** ''torni'' is twisting---------------''seltorni'' twists<br />
** ''xalni'' is panicked---------------''selxalni'' terrifies<br />
<br />
** ''zgike'' is music------------------''selzgi'' makes music<br />
<br />
----<br />
<br />
That's a very useful list. We shouldn't overlook the usefulness of ''zil-'', though:<br />
<br />
;''zilsti'' comes to a stop :''sisti'' halts (or ''dicra'' interrupts)<br />
<br />
;''zilxru'' reverts :''xruti'' restores<br />
<br />
;''zilcatra'' dies :''catra'' kills<br />
<br />
;''zilcfipu'' is confused :''cfipu'' confuses<br />
<br />
--[[And]]<br />
<br />
* Wouldn't "is killed" be better as a translation than "dies"? That is, there has to be a killer or there isn't really any ''catra''ing involved. I'd use ''mrobi'o'' (become dead) for just plain dying "without a cause". (And I'm not sure whether consensus was reached on the usage of ''zil-'' in this manner. ''xu la .andban. lojbo?'') --mi'e [[jbocre: pne|.filip.]]<br />
* It's a reasonable suspicion to have when I say something, but in this instance it's pretty uncontroversial, at least among the jboskepre. (I can't speak for nonjboskpre, since I don't get to hear their relevant views.)</div>
Gleki