BPFK Section: Text Structure cmavo as of 11 Feb 2005: Difference between revisions

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== Prior usage and discussion ==


'''-> [[Beginner's Mailing List|Beginner's Mailing List]]''' ''The list is now made...''
MAI is postfix, this was probably decided to make it analogous to mei, moi, roi, and re'u. However, this serves to make the grammar of Lojban non-LALR(1), because the parser may have to look through an arbitrarily large numeral string to decide that it actually belongs in a free modifier. This should not be a problem if Robin's PEG parser is made official. If Robin's PEG parser is ''not'' made official, however, extensive pre-processing will be required.


''Pretend that you just read the end of the [[jbocre: Lojban mailing list|Lojban Mailing List]] page...''
=== fa'o ===


Indeed, the community would do well, IMO, to grow beyond the mailing list. The community awfully needs a place where beginners don't have to deal with endless arguments about grammatical details, and where a culture can start to flourish without people beating down and attacking attempts. (So as not to sound like I'm making anonymous attacks, you can inquire privately to me about what I'm referring to, assuming you can't figure it out.) I'd been thinking about offering publically to accept questions from beginners who were afraid of the mailing list, now I'm thinking maybe they might be better served by another mailing list, lojban-beginners or something, wherein technical argument is banned. (Why, just today we saw someone's unsubscription message they tried sending to the list. Who knows, maybe they were turned off by the arguments?) --[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay]]
Described as unconditional end of parsing. Evidently intended only for machine input. Sometimes used in the sense of "the end". Some erroneous uses, such as inside of tu'e -- tu'u groups. See [http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:MpjTKbPZY88J:www.lojban.org/twiki/pub/Files/Documents/carvi.html+%22fa%27o%22+site:.lojban.org&hl=no] I see no reason to legalise this practice, since ''fe'o'' is available for this purpose.


(p.s.- I don't think doing this would harm the main mailing list, as the traffic on it has been growing drastically this year. Why, this month we'll more than surpass 1000 messages, which will be 1/10th of all traffic the list has ever seen, in a single month!)
=== ni'o ===


*''It's always been Lojbab who's been opposed to splitting the list. If it were to split, though, I think it should be the technical discussions that are hived off to a Lojban-tech list. The list called "Lojban" should be the list with the broadest appeal.'' -- [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
Seems to be used mostly parallel to paragraph breaks in natural languages. See [http://www.lojban.org/], [http://www.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9312/msg00394.html], and [http://www.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9107/msg00052.html]. On IRC, which is indicative of spoken language, this appears to have more of a meaning of changing the subject. Examples: [http://www.digitalkingdom.org/lojban/irclog/lojban/2004_06_02-02_21.txt], [http://www.digitalkingdom.org/lojban/irclog/lojban/2002_05_12--2002_11_28.txt].
**That would probably be preferable, but sufficently unlikely that I didn't really bother giving it any consideration. How do we manage it without some sort of official decree from the moderator of the list ([[jbocre: John Cowan|(John Cowan]] I think?) or from [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]? --[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay]]


----
ni'o implicitly cancels some assignments, depending on the number of consecutive ni'o and whether the text is spoken or written. The following table is due to CLL pp. 446--447.


Jay, I know who you mean :-) , and truly, I'm not offended. (''you were the furthest person from my mind...'') Until now, the contention has been that the list cannot survive the split, because there's too few participants. This may well no longer be the case.
||'''Number of consecutive ni'o'''|'''Written'''|'''Spoken'''


The Klingon list resolves this by distinct headers in email; that's been tried on Lojban list many a time, and failed. I don't think a separate list is a bad idea. OTOH, jbosnu '''does''' exist, and tends not to get much traffic; on the rare occasions we do Lojban chat, it's terribly convenient to do it on the list you're already on. Just food for thought... -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
ni'o|no effect|cancel KOhA and GOhA


One more question, though? In my day, I benefitted a '''lot''' from people offering corrections to my text. In fact, I wish people would do so to me more often. I understand this would also not be licit on a a beginners' list, so I'm wondering how, if beginners get things wrong (and I mean uncontroversially wrong, like dropping ''cu'') they '''do''' learn better? Encourage them to go into the main list when they're confident enough? Offlist corrections, like Robin's suggested for the story game?
ni'oni'o|cancel KOhA and GOhA|cancel KOhA and GOhA and tenses


The point of the beginner's list would be for a beginner to be able to get an answer to a question which they can understand (and to do anything else related to Lojban they want, as long as it doesn't devolve into arguing in English). And for the answer(s) to be written by people who are willing to tolerate mistakes (as at least one party has made clear he isn't willing to do). If the answerers have a disagreement, and can't decide on the semantics of something, they take it to the main list, and the beginner is given him the best answer that can be given at that point, with a note saying that they just started a raging debate on the other list about how it works, and that they might want to ask the question again in a month to see how the argument turned out. Further, some benevolent moderator (I'm volunteering, FWIW), will forward developments to the beginners which they might be interested in. (Like the creation of Nick's lessons) I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of how I want the list to work, beyond making it a place where beginners can ask questions without many of the worries I had when I first subscribed to the Lojban list and had all kinds of questions about every other page of [[jbocre: The Book|The Book]]. --[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay]]
ni'oni'oni'o|cancel KOhA and GOhA and tenses|cancel KOhA and GOhA and tenses||


Sooooo... uncontroversial corrections OK, as long as you're not an arsehole about it (i.e., perhaps, only offer them when someone solicits them, or don't harangue people at length but do something clean like: "You should probably say XYZ instead. For reasons why, see Refgram, p. n, or Lessons, page blah, or [[jbocre: Insert no more than a paragraph of expanation here.|Insert no more than a paragraph of expanation here.]]") (If I've misunderstood 'tolerate', please tell me; the alternative, discussion without correction, is '''I think''' the niche served by jbosnu.) And the minute controversy arises, it goes to the main list. Do I have it right? I know I'm jumping the gun on mechanics, so you don't have to answer right away... -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
=== i ===


''This is a great idea. do you have a philosophical problem with using Yahoo, which hosts the other four Lojban mailing lists? I would love to see newer blood. We have had a few names pop in, like that woman doing Bible xlations, but none stuck around .uinai --xod''
Ubiquitous. This is used mostly in front of sentences that are not the first sentence in the text. Sometimes also the first sentence in the text is prefixed with .i.


None. Yahoo is sort of lame, but it is convinent, and convinence for beginners is the goal here. --[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay]]
=== no'i ===


''Furthermore if people are searching the directory of mailing lists on Yahoo and discover Lojban, they may be more comfortable joining one for beginnners. --xod''
Examples:


Impossible to manipulate the archives of, I understand, but the 'list of record' remains the main list, so that's not adding to our woes... -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
* no'i la xrist. ba cpacu loi vanju mu'i lenu pinxe kei gi'e te preti fo ko'a felenu ko'a djica lenu la xrist. dunda dakau ko'a
** ''"Christ then took wine to drink, and asked the man what he wanted Christ to give him."'' From the translation of "Cardplayer", by Nick Nicholas. [http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/cardplayer]


I can arrange for another archive to be maintained, theoretically. I don't see a need, though... The Beginning list wouldn't really be in competition with jbosnu. It would be an appropriate forum for English questions. (And, in fact, I'd anticipate that most questions would be formulated in English, with just tidbits of Lojban. Requests for commentary or "is this right?") --jay
* no'i mi pu co'a mutce kurji lo nu jmina la jbovlaste
** ''"Anyway, I take great care about additions to Jbovlaste."'' [http://www.livejournal.com/users/camgusmis/2435.html]
 
=== tu'e - tu'u ===
 
''tu'e'' - ''tu'u'' seems to be used mainly to be used to set off a large block of text and refer to it metalinguisticially. For instance, there is a (very large) mailing list thread called [http://www.lojban.org/lists/lojban-list/msg03769.html oi preti be fi lo nincli zo'u tu'e]. Also lots of poetry are prefixed with titles that uses ''di'e'' to refer to the body of the poem, set of with ''tu'e''.
 
* [http://lojban.org/lists/lojban-list/msg08842.html onfusion as to the fact that tu'e clauses don't fit into relative clauses]
 
=== zo'u ===
 
Marks the end of a prenex. A prenex can have one or more terms, which may constrain the instantiation of logical variables in the main sentence. Prenexes are also used as a topic field.
 
== Proposed dictionary entries ==
 
;'''fa'o''' (FAhO):Unless quoted by "zo" or "lo'u" -- "le'u", turned into a quote delimiter by zoi, or acting as part of a lujvo made by a preceding "zei", marks the end of input to be parsed. Any remaining text is to be disregarded.
 
;'''i''' (I):Starts a new sentence.
 
;'''mai''' (MAI):Enumerates a point in the text. Combines with the preceding numeral to make a free modifier, which can be placed almost anywhere in a text.
 
;'''mo'o''' (MAI):Enumerates a higher-level section or chapter in the text. Combines with the preceding numeral to make a free modifier, which can be placed almost anywhere in a text.
 
;'''ni'o''' (NIhO):Marks the start of a paragraph and a change of subject. Multiple "ni'o" in a row means higher-level section breaks. In written contexts, two or more consecutive "ni'o" cancels the assignment of pro-sumti and pro-bridi in the selma'o KOhA and GOhA, respectively, and three or more consecutive "ni'o" additionally cancels all current tenses. In spoken contexts, a single or several consecutive "ni'o" cancels the assignment of pro-sumti and pro-bridi in the selma'o KOhA and GOhA, respectively, while two or more consecutive "ni'o" additionally cancels all current tenses.
 
;'''no'i''' (NIhO):Marks the start of a paragraph and change back to a previous subject. If no'i has a positive or zero subscript, it indicates the continuation of an earlier topic that was introduced with the word ni'o with the same subscript. If no'i has a negative subscript, it is a resumption of the topic of the paragraph found by counting backwards, starting with the paragraph before the one introduced with ni'o.
 
;'''tu'e''' (TUhE):Starts a text scope, which is a group of sentences. The text scope acts as a single sentence externally, for purposes such as logical operators.
 
;'''tu'u''' (TUhU):Ends a text scope. Elidable terminator for tu'e.
 
;'''zo'u''' (ZOhU):Marks the end of a prenex. A prenex can occur at the beginning of the sentence, and consists of one or more terms. A term is either a sumti or a sumti preceded by a tense or modal tag. The primary use of a prenex is for quantifying logical variables prior to their use in the sentence and/or sentences that are joined to it by a logical connective. Terms that do not quantify logical variables are instead interpreted as 'topics' of the containing sentence, and any sentences that are joined to it by a logical connective.
 
== Proposed keywords ==
 
;fa'o:The End. parsing ends here. end parsing here.
 
;i:and then.
 
;mai:-stly. -ndly. -thly.
 
;mo'o:-st section. -nd section. -rd section.
 
;ni'o:continuing to the next topic.
 
;no'i:returning to the previous topic.
 
;zo'u:so that. such that.
 
== Interaction with other sections ==
 
* The wording of the definition of "fa'o" must be watched closely to prevent contradictions with [[BPFK Section: Nonce connectives]].
* The selma'o MAI probably requires either preprocessing prior to YACC, or a PEG grammar.
 
== Impact ==
 
It is my belief that this section does not invalidate actual usages that were previously valid, nor does it contradict current prescription of the language.
 
* Clarification: topic resumption by label applies if no'i has a positive '''or zero''' subscript.
* Clarification: topic resumption by back-counting '''starts at section before the one currently being introduced'''.
 
* Clarification: the implication that any term in a prenex is either a bound variable or a topic (CLL p. 467) is made explicit.
 
{POLL(pollId=>16)}Text Structure cmavo Poll{POLL}

Revision as of 16:45, 4 November 2013

Prior usage and discussion

MAI is postfix, this was probably decided to make it analogous to mei, moi, roi, and re'u. However, this serves to make the grammar of Lojban non-LALR(1), because the parser may have to look through an arbitrarily large numeral string to decide that it actually belongs in a free modifier. This should not be a problem if Robin's PEG parser is made official. If Robin's PEG parser is not made official, however, extensive pre-processing will be required.

fa'o

Described as unconditional end of parsing. Evidently intended only for machine input. Sometimes used in the sense of "the end". Some erroneous uses, such as inside of tu'e -- tu'u groups. See [1] I see no reason to legalise this practice, since fe'o is available for this purpose.

ni'o

Seems to be used mostly parallel to paragraph breaks in natural languages. See [2], [3], and [4]. On IRC, which is indicative of spoken language, this appears to have more of a meaning of changing the subject. Examples: [5], [6].

ni'o implicitly cancels some assignments, depending on the number of consecutive ni'o and whether the text is spoken or written. The following table is due to CLL pp. 446--447.

||Number of consecutive ni'o|Written|Spoken

ni'o|no effect|cancel KOhA and GOhA

ni'oni'o|cancel KOhA and GOhA|cancel KOhA and GOhA and tenses

ni'oni'oni'o|cancel KOhA and GOhA and tenses|cancel KOhA and GOhA and tenses||

i

Ubiquitous. This is used mostly in front of sentences that are not the first sentence in the text. Sometimes also the first sentence in the text is prefixed with .i.

no'i

Examples:

  • no'i la xrist. ba cpacu loi vanju mu'i lenu pinxe kei gi'e te preti fo ko'a felenu ko'a djica lenu la xrist. dunda dakau ko'a
    • "Christ then took wine to drink, and asked the man what he wanted Christ to give him." From the translation of "Cardplayer", by Nick Nicholas. [7]
  • no'i mi pu co'a mutce kurji lo nu jmina la jbovlaste
    • "Anyway, I take great care about additions to Jbovlaste." [8]

tu'e - tu'u

tu'e - tu'u seems to be used mainly to be used to set off a large block of text and refer to it metalinguisticially. For instance, there is a (very large) mailing list thread called oi preti be fi lo nincli zo'u tu'e. Also lots of poetry are prefixed with titles that uses di'e to refer to the body of the poem, set of with tu'e.

zo'u

Marks the end of a prenex. A prenex can have one or more terms, which may constrain the instantiation of logical variables in the main sentence. Prenexes are also used as a topic field.

Proposed dictionary entries

fa'o (FAhO)
Unless quoted by "zo" or "lo'u" -- "le'u", turned into a quote delimiter by zoi, or acting as part of a lujvo made by a preceding "zei", marks the end of input to be parsed. Any remaining text is to be disregarded.
i (I)
Starts a new sentence.
mai (MAI)
Enumerates a point in the text. Combines with the preceding numeral to make a free modifier, which can be placed almost anywhere in a text.
mo'o (MAI)
Enumerates a higher-level section or chapter in the text. Combines with the preceding numeral to make a free modifier, which can be placed almost anywhere in a text.
ni'o (NIhO)
Marks the start of a paragraph and a change of subject. Multiple "ni'o" in a row means higher-level section breaks. In written contexts, two or more consecutive "ni'o" cancels the assignment of pro-sumti and pro-bridi in the selma'o KOhA and GOhA, respectively, and three or more consecutive "ni'o" additionally cancels all current tenses. In spoken contexts, a single or several consecutive "ni'o" cancels the assignment of pro-sumti and pro-bridi in the selma'o KOhA and GOhA, respectively, while two or more consecutive "ni'o" additionally cancels all current tenses.
no'i (NIhO)
Marks the start of a paragraph and change back to a previous subject. If no'i has a positive or zero subscript, it indicates the continuation of an earlier topic that was introduced with the word ni'o with the same subscript. If no'i has a negative subscript, it is a resumption of the topic of the paragraph found by counting backwards, starting with the paragraph before the one introduced with ni'o.
tu'e (TUhE)
Starts a text scope, which is a group of sentences. The text scope acts as a single sentence externally, for purposes such as logical operators.
tu'u (TUhU)
Ends a text scope. Elidable terminator for tu'e.
zo'u (ZOhU)
Marks the end of a prenex. A prenex can occur at the beginning of the sentence, and consists of one or more terms. A term is either a sumti or a sumti preceded by a tense or modal tag. The primary use of a prenex is for quantifying logical variables prior to their use in the sentence and/or sentences that are joined to it by a logical connective. Terms that do not quantify logical variables are instead interpreted as 'topics' of the containing sentence, and any sentences that are joined to it by a logical connective.

Proposed keywords

fa'o
The End. parsing ends here. end parsing here.
i
and then.
mai
-stly. -ndly. -thly.
mo'o
-st section. -nd section. -rd section.
ni'o
continuing to the next topic.
no'i
returning to the previous topic.
zo'u
so that. such that.

Interaction with other sections

  • The wording of the definition of "fa'o" must be watched closely to prevent contradictions with BPFK Section: Nonce connectives.
  • The selma'o MAI probably requires either preprocessing prior to YACC, or a PEG grammar.

Impact

It is my belief that this section does not invalidate actual usages that were previously valid, nor does it contradict current prescription of the language.

  • Clarification: topic resumption by label applies if no'i has a positive or zero subscript.
  • Clarification: topic resumption by back-counting starts at section before the one currently being introduced.
  • Clarification: the implication that any term in a prenex is either a bound variable or a topic (CLL p. 467) is made explicit.

{POLL(pollId=>16)}Text Structure cmavo Poll{POLL}