BPFK Section: Personal Pro-sumti: Difference between revisions

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==  Proposed Definitions And Examples ==


Early prominent Lojbanist from the Washington D.C. area; renowned for his pioneering translation of the Saki short story ''[[jbocre: The Open Window|The Open Window]]'', appearing in [[jbocre: ju'i lobypli|ju'i lobypli]] 10. Has not been active since sustaining injuries in a traffic accident in the early '90s.
===  cmavo: do (KOhA3) ===


''Are you sure he wouldn't mind having his own page in such a dehumanizing medium such as the Wiki?''
====  Proposed definition ====


I didn't consult Lojbab in creating his page either :-) If he does, the answer is that this is a reference page, not a vanity page...
A pro-sumti referring to "you," the person or people that the speaker is addressing.


How did he translate "dehumanizing" into Lojban?
====  See also ====


Realname?
* {do'o}
* {ko}


mi'e [[jbocre: pne|.filip.]] Various issues of [[jbocre: ju'i lobypli|ju'i lobypli]] say, near the beginning where they expand abbreviations of names such as "pc", "lojbab", and "JCB": ''Note that 'Athelstan' is that person's real name, used in his public life, and is not a pseudonym.'' And Issue 10 has this to say further:
* {mi}
* {ma'a}


;:''There is a question commonly asked of us, not really relevant to Lojban, which we can answer in connection with the following article.  This is 'Does Athelstan have a last name?'.  The answer is both yes and no.''
* {doi}


;:''Athelstan's name comes from Old Norse; family names were not used for identification in that culture. Instead, surnames would be granted, generally by nobility, in recognition for some great or significant deed, somewhat after the manner of modern honorary degrees.  In the absence of such an honor, different people with the same first name would be distinguished by their place of origin or trade, a practice that eventually led to our modern practice.  Honorific surnames wouldn't be used in the same way as modern family names, but rather only in an appropriate context.  Athelstan obviously has a place he was born, but he does not need this 'surname' to distinguish him from others.  How many other people do you know by the name of Athelstan?''
==== Proposed keywords ====


;:''But, in addition to a locative surname, Athelstan has been rewarded (by appropriate authorities familiar with the tradition) with two different honorific surnames for noteworthy deeds in unrelated fields (Athelstan is a person of diverse talents).  The stories are long, and perhaps I can talk Athelstan into writing of them (in Lojban) for later issues; he tells these stories quite interestingly, in the old bardic tradition.  But in any case, he uses them only in the appropriate context.  The following article is one such place, since one of his honorific surnames stems from his demonstrated mastery of skaldic forms.  (T. Peter Park uses the other honorific surname in his description of the New York Lojban meeting, printed in [[jbocre: lojbo karni K|lojbo karni K]]11.)''
* you
* y'all


Would it be disrespectful to include those surnames here? I just hunted through the appropriate issues to find out what they were. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
====  Usage examples ====


I considered whether to include them; I didn't, for a variety of reasons including
;coi ro do: "Hello, everybody."


*''Honorific surnames wouldn't be used in the same way as modern family names, but rather only in an appropriate context'' and ''he uses them only in the appropriate context'' -- I don't know what an appropriate context would be, and I suspect most others wouldn't, either. I don't know Athelstan, but making it a bit more difficult to find the name may help to prevent the names being used inappropriately
;xu do jimpe: "Do you understand (these facts)?"
*''How many other people do you know by the name of Athelstan?'' -- "Athelstan" uniquely (to me) identifies that person already


*Why is it important to know them? I get the feeling that since he doesn't use them himself, it doesn't really matter whether people find them out or not, and the only obvious (to me) reason would be curiosity -- a curiosity similar to that which drives people to find out what a celebrity's tattoo in a private place looks like.
====  Notes ====
**To defend myself here, my curiosity was mostly for what Norse honorary surnames are like, not for finding out random stuff about Athelstan. The LK11 one (adapted into Lojban and English) was quite surprising. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]


***Indeed, especially since I'm reading LOTR at the moment. (At first the rafsi looked wrong, but that apppears to be due to [[jbocre: the Great Rafsi Reallocation|the Great Rafsi Reallocation]], according to the comparision list linked from that page.)
This word can be either second-person singular or second-person plural. The listener(s) it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.


To answer your question: I'm not sure whether it would be disrespectful, but I can well imagine so. --[[jbocre: pne|pne]]
====  Issues ====
 
None.
 
===  cmavo: do'o (KOhA3) ===
 
====  Proposed definition ====
 
A pro-sumti for "you and others," referring to the person or people that the speaker is addressing along with one or more other people, considered together.
 
====  See also ====
 
* {do}
* {mi'o}
 
* {ma'a}
 
====  Proposed keywords ====
 
* you and them
 
====  Usage examples ====
 
;mi sidju do'o: "I help you and them."
 
;mi simsa do'o le ka zasti: "I am like you, in being real."
 
====  Notes ====
 
This cmavo combines the second- and third-persons together. The people it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.
 
====  Issues ====
 
None.
 
===  cmavo: ko (KOhA3) ===
 
====  Proposed definition ====
 
An ''imperative'' pro-sumti for "you," the person or people that the speaker is addressing. Similar to "do", except that the sentence it is in becomes imperative in the sense, "Make this sentence true."
 
====  See also ====
 
* {do}
* {e'o}
 
* {pe'u}
 
====  Proposed keywords ====
 
* you (imperative)
* you (command)
 
====  Usage examples ====
 
;ko sarji la lojban: "Support Lojban."
 
;ko kurji ko: "Take care of yourself."
 
====  Notes ====
 
Like {do}, this cmavo can be used multiple times in a sentence, anywhere where a {sumti} is valid. It changes the sentence from a statement into a request in the sense of somehow making the sentence true. For instance, "la .djan. klama ko" closely means, "Make it so that 'John comes to you' is true," or, "Make John come to you."
 
====  Issues ====
 
* [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/73891136be9be9d8 hat happens with connectives?]
 
===  cmavo: ma'a (KOhA3) ===
 
====  Proposed definition ====
 
A pro-sumti for "you, we, and they," referring to the the speaker, the person or people that the speaker is addressing, and and one or more other people, all considered together.
 
====  See also ====
 
* {mi'o}
* {mi'a}
 
* {do'o}
 
====  Proposed keywords ====
 
* you, us, and them
* you, me, and them
 
====  Usage examples ====
 
;xu .ei ma'a zbasu lo ctucku: "Do you, I, and they have to create a textbook?"
 
;ma'a xusra du'u lei jetnu: "We (meaning the signatories of the Declaration of Independence, the American reader, and the citizens of the nation) hold these truths."
 
====  Notes ====
 
This cmavo combines the first-, second-, and third-persons together.
 
====  Issues ====
 
None.
 
===  cmavo: mi (KOhA3) ===
 
====  Proposed definition ====
 
A pro-sumti for "I" and "we," referring to the the speaker(s) of the utterance.
 
====  See also ====
 
* {do}
* {mi'o}
 
* {mi'a}
* {ma'a}
 
* {mi'e}
 
====  Proposed keywords ====
 
* I
* we
 
* me
* us
 
====  Usage examples ====
 
;mi pendo do: "I am a friend of you."
 
;xrani mi lo ka cinmo:"(Something) hurt me in my feelings."
 
====  Notes ====
 
This word can be either first-person singular or first-person plural. The speaker(s) it refers to can be specifically identified by the vocative {mi'e} or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.
 
====  Issues ====
 
None.
 
===  cmavo: mi'a (KOhA3) ===
 
====  Proposed definition ====
 
A pro-sumti for "I/we and others," referring to the speaker(s) along with one or more other people, considered together.
 
====  See also ====
 
* {mi}
* {do'o}
 
* {mi'o}
* {ma'a}
 
====  Proposed keywords ====
 
* they and I
* we and they
 
* me and them
* us and them
 
====  Usage examples ====
 
;ca ma mi'a kakne lo nu co'a tcidu: "When can they and I start reading?"
 
;mi'a ca'o sisku: "They and I continue to search."
 
====  Notes ====
 
This cmavo combines the first- and third-persons together. The people it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.
 
====  Issues ====
 
It is currently uncertain whether this word always excludes {do}. According to its current official description, the word refers to "me/we ... & others unspecified, but not you, the listener," which excludes {do}. However, excluding {do} implies that in the case that the speakers and addressees of an utterance share some people, {mi'a} excludes those shared members, thus becoming different from the combination of the first- and third-persons.
 
===  cmavo: mi'o (KOhA3) ===
 
====  Proposed definition ====
 
A pro-sumti for "you and I/we," referring to the speaker(s) along with the person or people that the speaker is addressing, considered together.
 
====  See also ====
 
* {mi}
* {do}
 
* {ma'a}
 
====  Proposed keywords ====
 
* you and I
* you and we
 
====  Usage examples ====
 
;lo ro cribe poi jersi mi'o bunre:"All bears that chase you and me are brown."
 
;xu tu joi mi'o bebna:"Are those (people) over there and we being fools?"
 
====  Notes ====
 
This cmavo combines the first- and second-persons together. The people it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {mi'e} or {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.
 
====  Issues ====
 
None.
 
===  General section issues ===
 
None.

Revision as of 16:45, 4 November 2013

Proposed Definitions And Examples

cmavo: do (KOhA3)

Proposed definition

A pro-sumti referring to "you," the person or people that the speaker is addressing.

See also

  • {do'o}
  • {ko}
  • {mi}
  • {ma'a}
  • {doi}

Proposed keywords

  • you
  • y'all

Usage examples

coi ro do
"Hello, everybody."
xu do jimpe
"Do you understand (these facts)?"

Notes

This word can be either second-person singular or second-person plural. The listener(s) it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.

Issues

None.

cmavo: do'o (KOhA3)

Proposed definition

A pro-sumti for "you and others," referring to the person or people that the speaker is addressing along with one or more other people, considered together.

See also

  • {do}
  • {mi'o}
  • {ma'a}

Proposed keywords

  • you and them

Usage examples

mi sidju do'o
"I help you and them."
mi simsa do'o le ka zasti
"I am like you, in being real."

Notes

This cmavo combines the second- and third-persons together. The people it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.

Issues

None.

cmavo: ko (KOhA3)

Proposed definition

An imperative pro-sumti for "you," the person or people that the speaker is addressing. Similar to "do", except that the sentence it is in becomes imperative in the sense, "Make this sentence true."

See also

  • {do}
  • {e'o}
  • {pe'u}

Proposed keywords

  • you (imperative)
  • you (command)

Usage examples

ko sarji la lojban
"Support Lojban."
ko kurji ko
"Take care of yourself."

Notes

Like {do}, this cmavo can be used multiple times in a sentence, anywhere where a {sumti} is valid. It changes the sentence from a statement into a request in the sense of somehow making the sentence true. For instance, "la .djan. klama ko" closely means, "Make it so that 'John comes to you' is true," or, "Make John come to you."

Issues

cmavo: ma'a (KOhA3)

Proposed definition

A pro-sumti for "you, we, and they," referring to the the speaker, the person or people that the speaker is addressing, and and one or more other people, all considered together.

See also

  • {mi'o}
  • {mi'a}
  • {do'o}

Proposed keywords

  • you, us, and them
  • you, me, and them

Usage examples

xu .ei ma'a zbasu lo ctucku
"Do you, I, and they have to create a textbook?"
ma'a xusra du'u lei jetnu
"We (meaning the signatories of the Declaration of Independence, the American reader, and the citizens of the nation) hold these truths."

Notes

This cmavo combines the first-, second-, and third-persons together.

Issues

None.

cmavo: mi (KOhA3)

Proposed definition

A pro-sumti for "I" and "we," referring to the the speaker(s) of the utterance.

See also

  • {do}
  • {mi'o}
  • {mi'a}
  • {ma'a}
  • {mi'e}

Proposed keywords

  • I
  • we
  • me
  • us

Usage examples

mi pendo do
"I am a friend of you."
xrani mi lo ka cinmo
"(Something) hurt me in my feelings."

Notes

This word can be either first-person singular or first-person plural. The speaker(s) it refers to can be specifically identified by the vocative {mi'e} or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.

Issues

None.

cmavo: mi'a (KOhA3)

Proposed definition

A pro-sumti for "I/we and others," referring to the speaker(s) along with one or more other people, considered together.

See also

  • {mi}
  • {do'o}
  • {mi'o}
  • {ma'a}

Proposed keywords

  • they and I
  • we and they
  • me and them
  • us and them

Usage examples

ca ma mi'a kakne lo nu co'a tcidu
"When can they and I start reading?"
mi'a ca'o sisku
"They and I continue to search."

Notes

This cmavo combines the first- and third-persons together. The people it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.

Issues

It is currently uncertain whether this word always excludes {do}. According to its current official description, the word refers to "me/we ... & others unspecified, but not you, the listener," which excludes {do}. However, excluding {do} implies that in the case that the speakers and addressees of an utterance share some people, {mi'a} excludes those shared members, thus becoming different from the combination of the first- and third-persons.

cmavo: mi'o (KOhA3)

Proposed definition

A pro-sumti for "you and I/we," referring to the speaker(s) along with the person or people that the speaker is addressing, considered together.

See also

  • {mi}
  • {do}
  • {ma'a}

Proposed keywords

  • you and I
  • you and we

Usage examples

lo ro cribe poi jersi mi'o bunre
"All bears that chase you and me are brown."
xu tu joi mi'o bebna
"Are those (people) over there and we being fools?"

Notes

This cmavo combines the first- and second-persons together. The people it refers to can be specifically identified by vocatives (such as {mi'e} or {doi}) or identifiers such as {goi} or {no'u}.

Issues

None.

General section issues

None.