https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&feed=atom&action=history'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste - Revision history2024-03-29T06:25:35ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=109421&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong to '''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste2014-10-07T17:07:53Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/papri/why_the_Book_is_Right_and_the_ma%27oste_is_Wrong" class="mw-redirect" title="why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong">why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong</a> to <a href="/papri/%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste" title="'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste">'''vo'a''' in the CLL and in the ma'oste</a></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:07, 7 October 2014</td>
</tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-109420:rev-109421 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=109420&oldid=prevGleki at 17:06, 7 October 20142014-10-07T17:06:45Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:06, 7 October 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 1:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** IMAO the cmavo list definitions of '''vo'a''' etc. as referring to the sumti of the <u>main</u> bridi, rather than the <u>current</u> bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>Long-distance anaphora are really not. In particular, applying '''vo'V''' with the narrowest possible scope, even within descriptions, allows the creation of ''reflexive '''selbri'''''. For example, a ''self-lover'' would be '''le prami be vo'a'''. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>This cannot be done with the current understanding of '''vo'a'''. I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place. [[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't introduce it until the 1990's.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** IMAO the cmavo list definitions of '''vo'a''' etc. as referring to the sumti of the <u>main</u> bridi, rather than the <u>current</u> bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. Long-distance anaphora are really not. In particular, applying '''vo'V''' with the narrowest possible scope, even within descriptions, allows the creation of ''reflexive '''selbri'''''. For example, a ''self-lover'' would be '''le prami be vo'a'''. This cannot be done with the current understanding of '''vo'a'''. I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place. [[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't introduce it until the 1990's.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Comments?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Comments?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** <u>Another</u> issue unfinalized. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>*sigh* Just peachy. I think '''vo'a''' is communicatively useful in its [[ma'oste]] usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by '''vo'a''', as '''ri''' will serve most short-distance references.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** <u>Another</u> issue unfinalized. *sigh* Just peachy. I think '''vo'a''' is communicatively useful in its [[ma'oste]] usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by '''vo'a''', as '''ri''' will serve most short-distance references.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is '''sevzi'''. '''sevzi''' has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance '''vo'a''' to heart.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is '''sevzi'''. '''sevzi''' has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance '''vo'a''' to heart.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of '''vo'a'''? The answer is '''le no'axiro''', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make '''le nei''' the emergency short-distance reflexive than '''le no'axiro''' the emergency long-distance reflexive - but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of '''vo'a'''? The answer is '''le no'axiro''', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make '''le nei''' the emergency short-distance reflexive than '''le no'axiro''' the emergency long-distance reflexive - but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l16">Line 16:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 16:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{Quotation|'''no'a <nowiki>[xiPA]</nowiki>'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' {{=}} '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <nowiki>[are there others?]</nowiki>}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{Quotation|'''no'a <nowiki>[xiPA]</nowiki>'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' {{=}} '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <nowiki>[are there others?]</nowiki>}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*xod:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*xod:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', <u>where there is ambiguity</u> (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</del>**Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', <u>where there is ambiguity</u> (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say '''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta'''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</del>**Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say '''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta'''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*****xod:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*****xod:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*******I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list <u>and</u> Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>*******I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list <u>and</u> Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**I've personally had need to use '''vo'a''' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasant prospect, unless you do '''leno'axiro''' (ugly], there isn't a convenient way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**I've personally had need to use '''vo'a''' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use '''lenei''', '''lesenei''', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasant prospect, unless you do '''leno'axiro''' (ugly], there isn't a convenient way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think '''leno'axiro''' is that much uglier than [[joiku <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ujoi</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">joiku ujoi</del>]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think '''leno'axiro''' is that much uglier than [[joiku|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">kujoi</ins>]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of '<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'all</del>'' <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">instances of </del>vo'a were in fact <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>long-distance <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--</del>- not just of the instances of vo'a within embedded structures. People actually avoided using vo'a when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>sought it out<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- </del>[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">User</del>:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nick Nicholas|nitcion</del>]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion:]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>vo'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"</del>. I'll now try to use it that way consistently. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- [[Adam|Adam]]''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>* Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">of <u>all</u> instances </ins>of '''vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>were in fact long-distance - not just of the instances of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>within embedded structures. People actually avoided using <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>sought it out<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mi'e </del>[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>[[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Adam|Adam</ins>:]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*It's no wonder that <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>vo'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* </ins>The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>. I'll now try to use it that way consistently.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted vo'a.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted vo'a has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>vo'a xi ro<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}</del>, i.e. long-distance to main bridi.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>*It's no wonder that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Yes of course <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">suscripted </del>anaphora are unwieldly, but:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>* IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>*The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a xi ro<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>, i.e. long-distance to main bridi.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The most likely subscripts -<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">- </del>xi ro, xi da'a, xi re <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-</del>- are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>*Yes of course <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">subscripted </ins>anaphora are unwieldly, but:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance vo'a can define experimental cmavo with that function.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** The most likely subscripts - <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>xi ro<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>xi da'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>xi re<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>- are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** And then not be understood. Use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', ''lexenei''. They exist, and they're standard. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** True. Indeed, however ''vo'a'' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a nei/no'a expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]].<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>*Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>can define experimental cmavo with that function.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*** [[Jay Kominek|Jay:]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See now also <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[</del>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">] </del>, for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>** And then not be understood. Use <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lenei<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lesenei<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lexenei<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''. They exist, and they're standard.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>** True. Indeed, however <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>nei<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>/<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>no'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>vo'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}</del>, because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...) <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--[[.aulun. olung|.aulun. olung]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* </ins>See now also <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a thread<ref></ins>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ref></ins>, for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* [[.aulun.]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** </ins>I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>, because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">=References=</ins></div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-109419:rev-109420 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=109419&oldid=prevGleki at 17:00, 7 October 20142014-10-07T17:00:11Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:00, 7 October 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l28">Line 28:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 28:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*******I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list <u>and</u> Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*******I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance '''vo'a''', since that's what the cmavo list <u>and</u> Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have '''vo'a''' behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I've personally had need to use ''vo'a'' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', etc. And without backcounting (not a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pleasent </del>prospect, unless you do leno'axiro (ugly], there isn't a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">convinent </del>way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>I've personally had need to use <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lenei<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''lesenei<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', etc. And without backcounting (not a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">pleasant </ins>prospect, unless you do <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>leno'axiro<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>(ugly], there isn't a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">convenient </ins>way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>leno'axiro<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>is that much uglier than [[joiku ujoi|joiku ujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think leno'axiro is that much uglier than [[joiku ujoi|joiku ujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of ''all'' instances of vo'a were in fact long-distance --- not just of the instances of vo'a within embedded structures. People actually avoided using vo'a when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and ''sought it out'' when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>''The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance "vo'a". I'll now try to use it that way consistently. -- [[Adam|Adam]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of ''all'' instances of vo'a were in fact long-distance --- not just of the instances of vo'a within embedded structures. People actually avoided using vo'a when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and ''sought it out'' when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>mi'e [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''The prior usage found by nitcion has swayed me over to long-distance "vo'a". I'll now try to use it that way consistently. -- [[Adam|Adam]]''</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>mi'e [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*It's no wonder that {vo'a} usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*It's no wonder that {vo'a} usage is as it is: it follows what the [[mahoste|mahoste]] says, and most of us rely on the mahoste.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted vo'a.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*IMO There is a use for both "long" and "short" distance. This can be solved by the Criterion of Sayability along the lines stated in [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]], i.e. the arguments of all bridi that contain the anaphor can be accessed by subscripted vo'a.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted vo'a has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as {vo'a xi ro}, i.e. long-distance to main bridi.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*The next decision is which interpretation bare unsubscripted vo'a has. I'd be inclined to follow usage and tradition and have it as {vo'a xi ro}, i.e. long-distance to main bridi.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Yes of course suscripted anaphora are unwieldly, but:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Yes of course suscripted anaphora are unwieldly, but:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** We won't know how unwieldy without trying them;</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The most likely subscripts -- xi ro, xi da'a, xi re -- are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The most likely subscripts -- xi ro, xi da'a, xi re -- are not intellectually taxing, just verbose;</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** A better system of anaphora is most unlikely to emerge so long as the grammar is baselined.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance vo'a can define experimental cmavo with that function.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Anybody who wants unsubscripted short-distance vo'a can define experimental cmavo with that function.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** And then not be understood. Use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', ''lexenei''. They exist, and they're standard. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** And then not be understood. Use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', ''lexenei''. They exist, and they're standard. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** True. Indeed, however ''vo'a'' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a nei/no'a expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]].)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** True. Indeed, however ''vo'a'' gets defined, it will be a less flexible abbreviation of a nei/no'a expression. (See [[identifying no'a antecedents|identifying no'a antecedents]].)</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-109418:rev-109419 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=109418&oldid=prevGleki at 14:02, 7 October 20142014-10-07T14:02:17Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:02, 7 October 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l16">Line 16:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 16:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">quotation</del>|'''no'a [xiPA]'''. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>The default '''no'a''' = '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del>The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI [are there others?]}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Quotation</ins>|'''no'a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><nowiki></ins>[xiPA]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></nowiki></ins>'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{</ins>=<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}} </ins>'''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><nowiki></ins>[are there others?]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></nowiki></ins>}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*xod:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*xod:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', <u>where there is ambiguity</u> (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for '''ke'a''', <u>where there is ambiguity</u> (i.e. more than one level of nesting). Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just '''le no'a'''.</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-109417:rev-109418 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=109417&oldid=prevGleki at 13:58, 7 October 20142014-10-07T13:58:16Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:58, 7 October 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l16">Line 16:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 16:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{quotation|'''no'a [xiPA]'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' = '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI [are there others?]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{quotation|'''no'a [xiPA]'''. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default '''no'a''' = '''no'axipa''' the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti '''vo'V''' refer) is always reachable as '''no'axiro'''. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI [are there others?]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*xod:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--xod''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ke'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>where there is ambiguity<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>(i.e. more than one level of nesting<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">)</ins>. Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''le no'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Some may consider subscripting evil; but disambiguation by subscripts is long entrenched in Lojban; [[The Book|The Book]] explicitly advocates them for ''ke'a'', <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>where there is ambiguity<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>(i.e. more than one level of nesting.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">) </del>Feel free to steer clear of them; but PC is no more guilty of them than Cowan or Lojbab in defining the language. (And, uh, where's the humour?) In the case where there is no ambiguity (single level of nesting), it is of course just ''le no'a''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**</ins>*Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Looks like long-distance is preferred overall: people do want to be able to say ''le prenu cu tcidu levo'a cukta''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***</ins>*Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Ultimately, this is possibly silly; the real question usage counts addresses is, have people been paying more attention to the [[ma'oste|ma'oste]] or the Book? <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- [[User</del>:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*****xod</ins>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">******</ins>Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>Well I certainly would have predicted the book more than the ma'oste, and yet usage seems to have reflected the ma'oste? <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--xod''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*******</ins>I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>, since that's what the cmavo list <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>and<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I would have predicted the ma'oste actually (much handier to leaf through); but even more importantly, anyone that learned Lojban before [[The Book|The Book]] would have stuck to long-distance vo'a, since that's what the cmavo list <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>and<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </del>Lojbab were preaching. And that applies to Helsem as much as me. We are not really witnessing spontaneous linguistic evolution here. OTOH, as argued below, and more poorly above, there are Lojban-internal reasons why you'd want to have vo'a behave like this; Lojbab has himself appealed to them. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I've personally had need to use ''vo'a'' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasent prospect, unless you do leno'axiro (ugly], there isn't a convinent way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I've personally had need to use ''vo'a'' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasent prospect, unless you do leno'axiro (ugly], there isn't a convinent way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-109416:rev-109417 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=109416&oldid=prevGleki at 13:55, 7 October 20142014-10-07T13:55:56Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:55, 7 October 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l16">Line 16:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 16:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{quotation|no'a [<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[xiPA|</del>xiPA]<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]</del>. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>no'a<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>= <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>no'axipa<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>vo'V<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>refer) is always reachable as <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>no'axiro<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}</del>. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[</del>[are there others?<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]][[Endquote|ndquote]</del>]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{quotation|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>no'a [xiPA]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>. This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>no'a<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>= <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>no'axipa<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>vo'V<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>refer) is always reachable as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>no'axiro<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI [are there others?]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-109415:rev-109416 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=109415&oldid=prevGleki at 13:54, 7 October 20142014-10-07T13:54:27Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:54, 7 October 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 1:</td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* [[John Cowan|John Cowan]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** IMAO the cmavo list definitions of '''vo'a''' etc. as referring to the sumti of the <u>main</u> bridi, rather than the <u>current</u> bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. Long-distance anaphora are really not. In particular, applying '''vo'V''' with the narrowest possible scope, even within descriptions, allows the creation of ''reflexive '''selbri'''''. For example, a ''self-lover'' would be '''le prami be vo'a'''. This cannot be done with the current understanding of '''vo'a'''. I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place. [[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't introduce it until the 1990's.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** Comments?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*** [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** <u>Another</u> issue unfinalized. *sigh* Just peachy. I think '''vo'a''' is communicatively useful in its [[ma'oste]] usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by '''vo'a''', as '''ri''' will serve most short-distance references.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is '''sevzi'''. '''sevzi''' has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance '''vo'a''' to heart.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of '''vo'a'''? The answer is '''le no'axiro''', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make '''le nei''' the emergency short-distance reflexive than '''le no'axiro''' the emergency long-distance reflexive - but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** I vote against you, in any case. I also note that the [[CLL|Refgramm]] allows a little wiggle room, because it had no embedded bridi illustrations of '''vo'a''', and because 'same bridi' is ever so slightly ambiguous. If this is not resolved soon, I will have to drop '''vo'a''' from the lessons too. And I am sick of having to drop stuff because of inconsistent definitions.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** PS. If this boils down to a straight conflict between The Book and The ma'oste (I hope to God it doesn't), with no further correspondence entered into, The Book wins, and Lojbab should have corrected you in 1997 if he wanted to maintain the 1991 meaning of '''vo'a'''.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** However...</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** See [[Prior usage and discussions of vo'a|Prior usage and discussions of vo'a]].</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*** [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">**** I think all counting anaphora in Lojban are unusable. I don't think I am able to work out on the fly (in the spoken language) which selbri or sumti is supposed to be referred to by any of the counting or place anaphora. I do reflexives with ''sevzi'' and only use lerfu pronouns, so I don't really have an opinion on '''vo'a'''.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***** [[adam|adam:]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****** But '''vo'a''' doesn't count. It refers to a previous sumti by its grammatical position, which is pretty easy to figure out even if you've forgotten what words the first part of the sentence was stated in and only remember the meaning. I think that '''sevzi''' is horribly [[malglico|malglico]].</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Regarding prior usage here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This page is polemical, and is written by [[John Cowan</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">John Cowan]]</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{quotation</ins>|no'a [[xiPA|xiPA]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. </ins> This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default {no'a} = {no'axipa} the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti {vo'V} refer) is always reachable as {no'axiro}. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI [[are there others?]][[Endquote|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ndquote</ins>]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">IMAO the cmavo list definitions of ''vo'a'' etc. as referring to the sumti of the ''main'' bridi, rather than the ''current'' bridi (as the [[reference grammar|reference grammar]] has it) is bogus. Reflexives are normal and useful. Long-distance anaphora are really</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">not.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">In particular, applying ''vo'V'' with the narrowest possible scope, even within</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">descriptions, allows the creation of '''reflexive selbri'''. For example, a</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"self-lover" would be ''le prami be vo'a''. This cannot be done with the</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">current understanding of ''vo'a''.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I will consider dropping my position if someone can find a better way to do</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">this. Note that this is vaguely related to [[zi'o|zi'o]]; a place vanishes from the</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">selbri, not just by fiat, but by being identified with another place.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[Loglan|Loglan]] does it with a bunch of SE-like cmavo that, instead of swapping places, merge them; Lojban didn't inherit this feature because [[TLI|TLI]] didn't</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">introduce it until the 1990's.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Comments?</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''Another''' issue unfinalised. *sigh* Just peachy. I think ''vo'a'' is communicatively useful in its ma'oste usage, because the dearth of anaphors in Lojban, and the tendency of embedded selbri to share places with matrix selbri, means that long-distance coreference is (a) more frequent than short-distance; (b) more usefully signalled by ''vo'a'', as ''ri'' will serve most short-distance references.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A workaround exists for reflexive sumti in selbri exists, of course, and is "sevzi". "sevzi" has seen a bucketload of lujvo use in this function, so the community seems not to have taken short-distance vo'a to heart.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The question then becomes, is there an easy way of expressing the ma'oste version of vo'a? The answer is ''le no'axiro'', I take it. I think it's less hasslesome to make ''le nei'' the emergency short-distance reflexive than ''le no'axiro'' the emergency long-distance reflexive --- but in most instances, it doesn't much matter.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I vote against you, in any case. I also note that the Refgramm allows a little wiggle room, because it had no embedded bridi illustrations of vo'a, and because 'same bridi' is ever so slightly ambiguous. If this is not resolved soon, I will have to drop vo'a from the lessons too. And I am sick of having to drop stuff because of inconsistent definitions.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">PS. If this boils down to a straight conflict between The Book and The ma'oste (I hope to God it doesn't), with no further correspondence entered into, The Book wins, and Lojbab should have corrected you in 1997 if he wanted to maintain the 1991 meaning of vo'a.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''However...'''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''->[[Prior usage and discussions of vo'a|Prior usage and discussions of vo'a]]'''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I think all counting anaphora in Lojban are unusable. I don't think I am able to work out on the fly (in the spoken language) which selbri or sumti is supposed to be referred to by any of the counting or place anaphora. I do reflexives with ''sevzi'' and only use lerfu pronouns, so I don't really have an opinion on '''vo'a'''. -- mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''But ''vo'a'' doesn't count. It refers to a previous sumti by its grammatical position, which is pretty easy to figure out even if you've forgotten what words the first part of the sentence was stated in and only remember the meaning. I think that ''[[sevzi|sevzi]]'' is horribly [[malglico|malglico]]''. -- [[adam|adam]]</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[Regarding prior usage|Regarding prior usage]]</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''Here is an example of something that is completely unusable in actual speech. And it was proposed in a Record, no less!''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[Quote|Quote]]</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">;:{</del>no'a [[xiPA|xiPA]]<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del> This repeats the bridi PA levels up from the place where it occurs. The default {no'a} = {no'axipa} the bridi in which the occurrence is immediately nested. The topmost bridi in the nesting chain (the one to whose sumti {vo'V} refer) is always reachable as {no'axiro}. For counting purposes, a new level begins as soon as a subordinate bridi is guaranteed: at NU or NOI [[are there others?]]</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[Endquote|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Endquote</del>]]</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''Humor like this is why I've been steering clear of this discussion. It looks like older usage has decided vo'a goes long-distance. Let's check more modern usage and see how the newer generation has been doing it. Newer usage will have to trump old. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-100516:rev-109415 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=100516&oldid=prevConversion script: Conversion script moved page Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong to why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong: Converting page titles to lowercase2014-06-30T08:37:52Z<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/Why_the_Book_is_Right_and_the_ma%27oste_is_Wrong" class="mw-redirect" title="Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong">Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong</a> to <a href="/papri/why_the_Book_is_Right_and_the_ma%27oste_is_Wrong" class="mw-redirect" title="why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong">why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 08:37, 30 June 2014</td>
</tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-95645:rev-100516 -->
</table>Conversion scripthttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=95645&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "Obsolete: joiku" to "joiku"2014-06-06T08:42:41Z<p>Text replace - "Obsolete: joiku" to "joiku"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 08:42, 6 June 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l75">Line 75:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 75:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I've personally had need to use ''vo'a'' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasent prospect, unless you do leno'axiro (ugly], there isn't a convinent way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I've personally had need to use ''vo'a'' as defined by the ma'oste, and never any need to do what [[The Book|The Book]] says. But if I did, I could use ''lenei'', ''lesenei'', etc. And without backcounting (not a pleasent prospect, unless you do leno'axiro (ugly], there isn't a convinent way to refer to the sumti of the main bridi. And that is where the topic/subject of the sentence is going to be, and that is going to be one of the most commonly repeated sumti, I suspect. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think leno'axiro is that much uglier than [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Obsolete: </del>joiku ujoi|joiku ujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Thank you for saying what I tried to say, much more succintly. (Though I don't think leno'axiro is that much uglier than [[joiku ujoi|joiku ujoi]]). Oh, and as a further P.S.? The fact that some Lojbanists don't actually want a short-distance reflexive (like Jay is saying) is actually pretty interesting linguistically. (Actually no it isn't, it just shows how weird Lojbanists' attitude towards anaphora is, but hey...)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of ''all'' instances of vo'a were in fact long-distance --- not just of the instances of vo'a within embedded structures. People actually avoided using vo'a when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and ''sought it out'' when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Actually, I'll go further: I didn't keep track, but something like 90% of ''all'' instances of vo'a were in fact long-distance --- not just of the instances of vo'a within embedded structures. People actually avoided using vo'a when it referred back within the same bridi (including the bridi within a sumti), and ''sought it out'' when it would refer outside its bridi to the outermost bridi. Not only do Lojbanists not want a short-distance reflexive; they actively want a long-distance one. There's a paper in this, I'll warrant you -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-92680:rev-95645 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw-live.lojban.org/index.php?title=%27%27%27vo%27a%27%27%27_in_the_CLL_and_in_the_ma%27oste&diff=92680&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: " to ""2014-03-23T16:19:53Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: " to ""</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:19, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l102">Line 102:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 102:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See now also [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005] , for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See now also [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10005] , for a new proposed interpretive convention, and responses in that thread.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) {vo'a}, because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...) --[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>.aulun. olung|.aulun. olung]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I always have stuck to the Book's short-distance (i.e. reflexive) {vo'a}, because 1) it's the Book's, 2) it seems more "natural"/intuitive to me first of all addicted to natlangs ;-) (I admit that - as it seems - most Lobanists are quite fond of making things complicated...) --[[.aulun. olung|.aulun. olung]]</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-92091:rev-92680 -->
</table>Gleki